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  1. #1

    My issue with Blizzards new "gearing through LFR" game design.

    I'm finding an Issue with Blizzards current sentiment to using LFR as your primary way to gear to be able to get Raid ready as of MoP.

    Throughout TBC and WotLK it became quite common place that with new a Patch a few new Dungeons would be added that would drop gear that would help bump up your over all gear level, these dungeons also gave Badges of Justice (TBC)/Emblems of Justice/Valor/Conquest/Frost(Wotlk) and pretty much allowed you to spend a good part of the week running dungeons/heroics to Stockpile badges and get your characters raid ready had you missed some pieces or were fresh to raiding in the new patch. As a way to let you not completely bypass older content, but to allow you to step foot into new content without a guild or raid leader instantly denying you due to less than optimal gear.

    It seems with Blizzards new mentality with LFR being the primary way to gear yourself, and having any previous patch items STILL cost valor instead of JP, meaning you can only get a maximum of 1000 Valor a week making gearing yourself quick very hard.

    I think what really needs to happen if LFR is going to stay the Gear-Pony that they need to either remove the 1 piece of Loot per boss lockout of previous tiers, and/or make 5.0/5.1 Valor rewards purchasable by using Justice Points, just as every other expac before it has done.

    I know people are going to say "but you can just go grind elder coins for more chances!!", but that is just a very large annoyance. As wanting to just do LFR in itself is generally a 30min wait just for a group, and then maybe 30mins+ to clear it for a chance to not even obtain loot, and adding another 2-4 hours grinding rares on Isle on top of that just to gather enough coins to be able to re-roll once per a boss in 1 LFR pass through is just bore-some.

    This isn't just the Mentality of a "Wrath-Baby" as I have played this game since the Ahn-qiraj War Effort, it has just become to the point where it no longer feels like I can just log on for a few hours a night, smash out 5-6 heroics and grab a piece of gear to help towards being able to raid, be it Badge of Justice gear from Isle of Quel'danas, or Badge of conquest/Frost gear from ToTC Vendors, or Justice Point gear that was previously for Valor in 4.1 whilst in 4.2.

    It now feels like I have to spend a few hours a night waiting in LFR queues to try and hope I get the low Ilvl epic drop I want or spending a few hours every day doing Scenarios/heroics/Dailies to gather a measly 1000 Valor points to add to my collection to add to my following weeks Valor Cap to have enough points to buy 1-2 pieces if that, that will allow me to be geared enough to then find a Guild that I can actually do Normal Modes with, without being shafted for not having a High enough Ilvl.

    My reasoning is, it should be both quick AND easy to get gear that is of the previous patches quality (not every slot, but at least 1/3-1/2 of the slots), to allow people to migrate into newer content, without the gear road blocks that seem to be in MoP.

    I'm sure I will get a tirade of people screaming that "THIS GAME IS TOO CASUAL ALREADY", but I am not worried, I am just someone who likes to be able to do "ACTUAL" raid content, without having to get bored of current content by grinding every LFR mode before I can even step into Normal.

    LFR ruins the feel for me when I do normal mode raids, since I feel like "I've already done this and facerolled it 10times before I've even been geared enough to try it with its intended difficulty"

    But with how Blizzard are saying that 5.4 will not bring anymore 5 man dungeons. It seems the rest of this expansion is going to have a feel of "meh" when it comes to raiding. Especially when it comes to wanting to Level an Alt.

  2. #2
    Epic! solvexx's Avatar
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    If you start playing when the patch comes out and do Normals every single week, you more than likely will only need to do LFR 3-4 times MAX because you will buy valor gear and drops from raids.

  3. #3
    This feels kinda out of place as it is well written and makes sense. My first instinct was to suggest posting it on the official forums, but I feel current Devs are way too entrenched in their mindset to be swayed by anything short of direct orders caused by relevant subscription losses.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by solvexx View Post
    If you start playing when the patch comes out and do Normals every single week, you more than likely will only need to do LFR 3-4 times MAX because you will buy valor gear and drops from raids.
    That is assuming you have the Ilvl or Quality gear to go straight into Normal modes from the beginning of a New patch. With a new Character, and after having missed nearly 2 months of playing due to moving house and waiting for a new Internet connection/Stability I am pretty much relegated to running MSV over and over until I get enough gear to then run HoF and EOTS both which have insane queue times of 25-40mins, which also only give a small chance of getting gearing since I am currently without charms from last Patch.

    Also to buy the Valor gear when your character is currently on 0/1000vp means 2 weeks minimum before I can buy even my first piece of valor gear, and that is assuming I've done the dailies and got the Rep to allow them to be bought.

  5. #5
    To be honest, I am perfectly fine with LFR being used more for gearing. I am even fine with them not adding new 5-man dungeons.

    What I don't agree with, is this odd trend of removing the down conversion from VP to JP for old gear. We already have little reason to spend JP outside of heirlooms or transmog, and it's supposed to be used as the "catch up" currency and at this point it does not do that job. I just hope they do the conversion before the next expansion, otherwise MoP gear for new character is going to be skipped over when it comes to transmog, since you would be wasting currency.

  6. #6
    Titan Kelimbror's Avatar
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    While I certainly have a lot of nostalgia for TBC era and miss the ease of LFD equaling loot in no time, I have to say that this is better designed and makes it so the majority of the content they create is actually seen by a large percentage of players. I don't feel that your claims of time it takes to run LFR are anything negative. I mean..you just complained about having to take an hour of your time to run a raid.

    You do realize that it can take that long to run one heroic as well right? Except even in 'ye olde days' you wouldn't be rewarded as much as you are now. Sure random drops are random, but you have the potential to get up to 8 pieces of loot for your one hour. You know what you would get before now? Some valor points and one piece of loot after multiple hours.

    So honestly, the game has grown a lot easier and a lot more rewarding, though at the cost of shifting the entire design and tossing out the facade of trying to recreate or hold on to specific forms of nostalgia. I shed my tear and cancelled my sub about 2-3 months ago, took time to play some other things, and now I have readjusted what I want out of the game and decided to come back.

    I have found that I actually look forward to the lockouts resetting because I enjoy the LFRpinata when I don't have to deal with other people or schedule my time ever. The dailies have been adjusted so that going forward hopefully they are as enjoyable and non mandatory as the Isle ones are. And pretty much the game has a solid foundation to go forward, though we all have to admit it's a very different place that will never be like it was when it was new.

    I'm ok with all of those things and I've been having a great time in my first week back.
    BAD WOLF

  7. #7
    lol Hears the thing last tir the normal mode raids started with mv so you can walk into normals in heroic blues just like every other xpack for years. Also you can walk into TOT with lfr gear. If you got the skills the guild your appling to will get you in.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Grocalis View Post
    To be honest, I am perfectly fine with LFR being used more for gearing. I am even fine with them not adding new 5-man dungeons.

    What I don't agree with, is this odd trend of removing the down conversion from VP to JP for old gear. We already have little reason to spend JP outside of heirlooms or transmog, and it's supposed to be used as the "catch up" currency and at this point it does not do that job. I just hope they do the conversion before the next expansion, otherwise MoP gear for new character is going to be skipped over when it comes to transmog, since you would be wasting currency.
    But we have the new heirlooms as JP sinks!!!! Yeah, I don't have issues with the current gearing model but it could use some work with the fact that JP has a small window of use being one of them. JP is more a relic from Cataclysm these days than an actual currency these days.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Kittyvicious View Post
    While I certainly have a lot of nostalgia for TBC era and miss the ease of LFD equaling loot in no time, I have to say that this is better designed and makes it so the majority of the content they create is actually seen by a large percentage of players. I don't feel that your claims of time it takes to run LFR are anything negative. I mean..you just complained about having to take an hour of your time to run a raid.

    You do realize that it can take that long to run one heroic as well right? Except even in 'ye olde days' you wouldn't be rewarded as much as you are now. Sure random drops are random, but you have the potential to get up to 8 pieces of loot for your one hour. You know what you would get before now? Some valor points and one piece of loot after multiple hours.

    So honestly, the game has grown a lot easier and a lot more rewarding, though at the cost of shifting the entire design and tossing out the facade of trying to recreate or hold on to specific forms of nostalgia. I shed my tear and cancelled my sub about 2-3 months ago, took time to play some other things, and now I have readjusted what I want out of the game and decided to come back.

    I have found that I actually look forward to the lockouts resetting because I enjoy the LFRpinata when I don't have to deal with other people or schedule my time ever. The dailies have been adjusted so that going forward hopefully they are as enjoyable and non mandatory as the Isle ones are. And pretty much the game has a solid foundation to go forward, though we all have to admit it's a very different place that will never be like it was when it was new.

    I'm ok with all of those things and I've been having a great time in my first week back.
    That is understandable, though I think my point came across differently to how I wanted it in respect of the "hour to raid".

    That is not what bothers me, it is moreso the fact that after that hour..well that is it, you wait a week for another chance at loot or go try grind some coins for another shot, whereas previous expansions with gear/JP being used if you failed to get anything in that hour, you can just queue up for LFD again and have another chance at loot over and over vs. 1 try a week, which hampers gear acquirement.

    It is also the fact that 5man heroics I do not mind running over and over, since they are generally fast and are trivial, whereas I like to raid for the difficulty and fun of raiding, but if I have to run the current tiers raid 5 times in LFR before I can try it on Normal, it has already lost its fun and I am less likely to want to want to progress through it.

  10. #10
    they buffed drop rates in 5.0 LFR

    they put loads of elder charms into the treasure cache scenario (seriously, i got 16 from 1 run and also picked up another key last night)

    you also get elder charms from mobs on the isle of thunder

    they also nerfed 5.0 normal and HM raids by 10%



    gearing up through LFR is fine, it should be a LOT easier than it was pre-5.2

    also, long queues for LFR is just the way it is, i dont like having to wait 30 mins to get into a raid that's on the last boss - especially not when i need gear from the first boss, but 30 mins wait time (during which you can do dailies) is a lot easier than forming a guild, recruiting sensible raiders and trying to do normal modes. otherwise, queue as a tank or healer - tanks are always in demand for LFR and as such get much quicker queues.
    Last edited by smokii; 2013-03-12 at 01:51 PM.
    where's the goddamned ESO sub forum?

  11. #11
    The coins are not all that hard to get. Managing 15 or so a week might take a fair amount of time, but it is unlikely that you would really need to use a coin on every single boss of the tier.

    The drop rate in LFR has been increased significantly. Sure, statistical outliers are possible, and you are not going to fully gear your character in a single week. But in running LFR last week for valor I got loot from half the bosses, including 2 tier tokens, all without using any coin rolls because I didn't need any of the gear. I have heard from multiple people in my guild that had similar experiences. It is not an instant catch-up like Cata/Wrath was. But it is not impossibly slow either.

    For Valor gear (assuming you have the rep, of which takes a minimal investment of time to reach at least honored) I would say it is faster than TBC was with the badges, and not all that much slower than Wrath/Cata. Even in Cata, you could only get a piece about every other week. The weekly VP cap is only 250 points lower than in Cata, and the gear costs are the same.

    Yes, it is slower. Yes, I get that some people don't like that. But in my opinion it is better this way than the situation we were in with Wrath/Cata where someone could skip the entire expansion, come in during the last patch, and be raiding current content within a day of reaching level cap. Catch-up mechanics are fine and even necessary. Instant catch-up mechanics hurt the game.
    Last edited by Gurbz; 2013-03-12 at 01:56 PM.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by smokii View Post
    they buffed drop rates in 5.0 LFR

    they put loads of elder charms into the treasure cache scenario (seriously, i got 16 from 1 run and also picked up another key last night)

    you also get elder charms from mobs on the isle of thunder

    they also nerfed 5.0 normal and HM raids by 10%



    gearing up through LFR is fine, it should be a LOT easier than it was pre-5.2

    also, long queues for LFR is just the way it is, i dont like having to wait 30 mins to get into a raid that's on the last boss - especially not when i need gear from the first boss, but 30 mins wait time (during which you can do dailies) is a lot easier than forming a guild, recruiting sensible raiders and trying to do normal modes. otherwise, queue as a tank or healer - tanks are always in demand for LFR and as such get much quicker queues.
    It's just not the fact of LFR being made easier. It is the time constraint difference. In TBC/Wrath I could level and Alt and have him Current Tier Raid ready within a week or two, and begin enjoying actual Current Tier Raids on Normal/Heroic modes.

    It just took me a Month just to get my Monk to an Ilvl high enough to be able to do ToT LFR tomorrow.. using the same amount of time I used to use.
    Also whilst being declined from Pugs of Normal-Mode HoF and ToES, and being told by Guild Leaders that my gear wasn't good enough to raid with their core groups, even after destroying them in damage in Heroic dungeons etc.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 01:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    Yes, it is slower. Yes, I get that some people don't like that. But in my opinion it is better this way than the situation we were in with Wrath/Cata where someone could skip the entire expansion, come in during the last patch, and be raiding current content within a day of reaching level cap. Catch-up mechanics are fine and even necessary. Instant catch-up mechanics hurt the game.
    What do people have against people being able to start late in an Expansion and experience the last patch straight away though?
    Last edited by Asthreon; 2013-03-12 at 01:57 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Gurbz View Post
    Yes, it is slower. Yes, I get that some people don't like that. But in my opinion it is better this way than the situation we were in with Wrath/Cata where someone could skip the entire expansion, come in during the last patch, and be raiding current content within a day of reaching level cap. Catch-up mechanics are fine and even necessary. Instant catch-up mechanics hurt the game.
    i totally agree, the instant catch up mechanics of wotlk and cata damaged things

    i like LFR as a catch up mechanic, it makes you raid to get raid gear, which is how it should be, but it also sets you on the path to the latest content without having to do anything other than LFR if you dont want to. but you can still do dungeons, scenarios, challenge modes and normal raids to valor cap and gear up as quick as possible, as long as you choose to do so.

    blizz put a shit load of content into MoP, but the best part about it is the choice of how much you want to undertake to further your personal progress.
    Last edited by smokii; 2013-03-12 at 02:05 PM.
    where's the goddamned ESO sub forum?

  14. #14
    High Overlord Pyr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heartfrost View Post
    lol Hears the thing last tir the normal mode raids started with mv so you can walk into normals in heroic blues just like every other xpack for years. Also you can walk into TOT with lfr gear. If you got the skills the guild your appling to will get you in.
    Mind = blown

    Dude, you really should spellcheck and/or proofread your shit before posting it. I mean really, how do you expect people to take you seriously when you misspell and use horrible grammar and sentence structure? Allow me to fix it for you.

    Lol, here's the thing. Last tier, the normal mode raids started with MsV, so you can walk into normals with heroic blues just like every other xpac for years. Also you can walk into ToT with LFR gear. If you have the skills, the guild you're applying to will get you in.

    Actually, after reading this carefully, even with grammar/spelling corrections it still makes absolutely no sense. Sorry man, I tried. :/

    Infracted. Contribute constructively and stay on topic, please
    Last edited by Darsithis; 2013-03-12 at 03:08 PM.

  15. #15
    High Overlord Dsfunctional's Avatar
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    I don't mind the LFR Raid setup, but I would prefer if we could go back to these two things:
    1. Remove the weekly valor cap, just leave the 4000 cap. This 1000 a week shit it terrible, atleast bump it up to 2000 so you can purchase something useless once a week.
    2. Make the epic loot 100% drop chance for last boss in the heroic dungeons. I never understood why they removed that, the ilvl 363 gear is terrible.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Asthreon View Post
    It's just not the fact of LFR being made easier. It is the time constraint difference. In TBC/Wrath I could level and Alt and have him Current Tier Raid ready within a week or two, and begin enjoying actual Current Tier Raids on Normal/Heroic modes.

    It just took me a Month just to get my Monk to an Ilvl high enough to be able to do ToT LFR tomorrow.. using the same amount of time I used to use.
    Also whilst being declined from Pugs of Normal-Mode HoF and ToES, and being told by Guild Leaders that my gear wasn't good enough to raid with their core groups, even after destroying them in damage in Heroic dungeons etc.
    i get that, i miss having alts raid ready, but then, as soon as you get your alts into LFR now (as in after 5.2) it wont take long before you are doing current content.

    pre 5.2 drop rates were horrendous, but tbh, i knew this would happen, so i didn't bother doing any LFR on anything other than my main - i've got a paladin at 90, a mage and warrior both at 87 - i should be able to get all those alts geared through LFR in no time at all - although the biggest challenge now, is to get into LFR in the first place. (but with pvp gear having pve stats on it, you can buy almost enough gear to get into LFR anyways)

    if your complaint was aimed at entry gear to get into LFR, i'd concur, but as for gearing through LFR post 5.2, it should be cake.

    edit: also, it took me 3 months of LFR every week to get geared to ilvl 480 ready for ToT LFr this week, so i feel your pain. LFR droprates pre-5.2 were horrible, even with elder charms.
    Last edited by smokii; 2013-03-12 at 02:09 PM.
    where's the goddamned ESO sub forum?

  17. #17
    Dreadlord
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asthreon View Post
    What do people have against people being able to start late in an Expansion and experience the last patch straight away though?
    Probably the fact that people worked hard throughout an entire patch to get the gear they have and prepare for the next patch. Now the work isn't instantly trivialized the moment the servers come back up on Tuesdays. I understand where you are coming from, I have 3 90s and just the week before the patch I finally got the 3rd one to the point of being able to run Throne LFR when it comes up today. I'm honestly glad it's a little more work, makes the accomplishment of getting a good ilvl in the end pretty rewarding.
    Quote from: Thallidomaniac on March 28, 2010, 05:56:24 am
    Our characters are wearing the same pair of underwear, since like, Level 1. Damn that's unsanitary as hell.

  18. #18
    Blizzard adds dungeons in 4.1 and 4.3, players complain that they feel as if they are forced to do ZG/ZA and then the 3 4.3 dungeons ad naseum.

    Blizzard decides to use LFR now to gear up players and not do dungeons, and players complain.

    Another example of Blizzard's impossible situation with some people.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Asthreon View Post
    What do people have against people being able to start late in an Expansion and experience the last patch straight away though?
    The problem with instant catch up mechanics like we saw in Cata is that there is no reason to play at all during the expansion. Or even between patches. When you know that you can unsub for months, yet within a week you can be nearly as well geared as someone that played that entire time, what reason do you have to keep playing? Further, why should someone play all that time when they get no advantage at all from doing so? Such a system literally makes it more efficient to not play. It is more convenient for the players. Massively so. But it is severely damaging to the overall health of the game.

    I don't want to go back to TBC style progression, where if you started late it was more or less impossible to catch up to current content. But the nearly instant catch-up models from Wrath/Cata are just as bad on the opposite extreme, and should also never come back, IMO.
    All this complaining is simply further proof that Blizzard could send each and every player a real-life wish-granting flying unicorn carrying a solid gold plate of chocolate chip cookies wrapped in hundred dollar bills, and someone would whine that Blizzard sucks for not letting them choose oatmeal raisin.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeadmanWalking View Post
    If your guild demands you slip into an elephants butt and force yourself out in a regurgation then you can't blame Blizzard for supplying the elephant.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by smokii View Post
    they buffed drop rates in 5.0 LFR

    they put loads of elder charms into the treasure cache scenario (seriously, i got 16 from 1 run and also picked up another key last night)

    you also get elder charms from mobs on the isle of thunder

    they also nerfed 5.0 normal and HM raids by 10%



    gearing up through LFR is fine, it should be a LOT easier than it was pre-5.2

    also, long queues for LFR is just the way it is, i dont like having to wait 30 mins to get into a raid that's on the last boss - especially not when i need gear from the first boss, but 30 mins wait time (during which you can do dailies) is a lot easier than forming a guild, recruiting sensible raiders and trying to do normal modes. otherwise, queue as a tank or healer - tanks are always in demand for LFR and as such get much quicker queues.
    I see everyone talking about these keys, yet i have not even gotten a single one. Where do you get them from?

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