My issue with Blizzards new "gearing through LFR" game design.

[ShimmerSwirl]

This is your opinion. Maybe raiding isn't the "pinnacle" for us. Maybe it is a Loremaster title, or achievements (at some point), or possibly the pinnacle is just logging on to play with friends and family. Your "end game" definition is not the same as everyone else's and should not affect what content I should or should not see. You need to get over your little shiny complex and let those who are hurting no one enjoy their game for the same $15 they pay. How you raid is your business and how we raid is ours. You stick to yours and we will stick with LFR.

If your endgame is not raiding, then you probably wouldn't mind having LFD removed then. Your $15 doesn't entitle you to anything except the ability to log in to the game. Exactly the same as my $15.

[Charge me Doctor]

Because the thrill of reaching that pinnacle is greatly reduced knowing that anyone who can push a que button is seeing the exact same thing. An extra couple stats on heroic gear doesn't do it for me.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 04:19 PM ----------



Its hypocritical for people in your boat to tell me how to 'feel'. If I feel heroic is cheapened by LFD, thats how I feel. You can't tell me there's no reason to feel that way, I already do feel that way.

Anyone who can google "world first heroic kill uber boss" is seeing exact same thing

[SherbertLand]

Even old tier gear being on Heroic dungeons discourages people to run raids. Our guild fell apart in cata because "why do i need to tear my ass apart in your stupid raids, i better will go and pvp until next patch and grind heroics to be able to run new raid".

Current model works fine (on average populated servers) because people always build up raids (i've got a spot in 10mHoF pug as enhancement last week, where we had 2 overgeared warlocks and ele shaman who did ~170k DPS, we managed to kill everyone except last boss over one and half hour, and we stopped because RLer disconnected).


After watching blood legion HM boss kills videos i looked up some nicknames on armory. Most of them haven't stepped in new LFR. Yeah, LFR totally screwed up hardcore raiders

Excuse me, I'm not trying to be a mean person or trying to derail the thread, but it sounded like you had players raiding for loot. That's a mindset that will always fall apart in the end.

[ShimmerSwirl]

Just because it's your opinion doesn't mean it's not selfish and shallow. Why should people be denied the experience just because you want to feel better about yourself?

If you didn't make such low assumptions about people you might understand. Stooping to claim my design preference is a sign of personal insecurity is a pretty weak argument. How about this: I like to be immersed in the game world and be challenged. I like choices and rewards to matter. If nothing matters I lose interest. If everyone is the same, the world is simple, boring and bland. I like diversity and complexity. LFD waters down the entire game for me and makes progression trivial.

[Osmeric]

They will, they have already lost the same amount of Cata comparing both first quarters.

THis is not true, particularly because the first quarter of Cataclysm IN CHINA was in Q3 2011, and they lost about 500K there.

[Charge me Doctor]

Excuse me, I'm not trying to be a mean person or trying to derail the thread, but it sounded like you had players raiding for loot. That's a mindset that will always fall apart in the end.

Nah, usually it is because of 6 hours wipe nights. Some people just can't handle it.

I mean, why do i need to wipe for X hours on some stupid cho gall because someone can't handle interrupt button to get gear to be able to run new raid, if i can run heroics for X hours and get same gear as i *could* get.
I can understand why people want easier ways to get gear, so they can outgear raid and faceroll through it, but this attitude ruins all fun and enjoyment of raids, not LFD

[-Superman-]

Its hypocritical for people in your boat to tell me how to 'feel'. If I feel heroic is cheapened by LFD, thats how I feel. You can't tell me there's no reason to feel that way, I already do feel that way.

But it's ok for you to tell us how we should feel about raiding and that we are wrong because our diluted raiding ruins your feel good moments. That's your personal issue that you need to work through. We are just as entitled to see content in our own way. It's no different that using the 10M vs 25M vs 40M argument. Just because I prefer 10M over 40M raiding does not make your hardcore experience any less hardcore.

I mean, I could say casuals shouldn't feel entitled to seeing raid content if they're not willing to put the work in. Is that fair?

That is exactly what you are saying about LFR. You think it should be 10M or 25M and people should be forced to raid with a guild or not raid at all because someone gave us the RedBox version of Lord of the Rings while you tell us how that version dilutes the experience of your 15hour epic collectors box edition.

It's the same movie without the extras and we are not forcing you to watch our copy.

[ShimmerSwirl]

But it's ok for you to tell us how we should feel about raiding and that we are wrong because our diluted raiding ruins your feel good moments. That's your personal issue that you need to work through. We are just as entitled to see content in our own way. It's no different that using the 10M vs 25M vs 40M argument. Just because I prefer 10M over 40M raiding does not make your hardcore experience any less hardcore.



That is exactly what you are saying about LFR. You think it should be 10M or 25M and people should be forced to raid with a guild or not raid at all because someone gave us the RedBox version of Lord of the Rings while you tell us how that version dilutes the experience of your 15hour epic collectors box edition.

It's the same movie without the extras and we are not forcing you to watch our copy.

Your the only one saying "there's no reason for you to feel that way,". I stated my opinion and never asked you to agree with it. If you want to know why so many hardcore players don't like the way the game is now, i'm tell you why.

[-Superman-]

If you didn't make such low assumptions about people you might understand. Stooping to claim my design preference is a sign of personal insecurity is a pretty weak argument. How about this: I like to be immersed in the game world and be challenged. I like choices and rewards to matter. If nothing matters I lose interest. If everyone is the same, the world is simple, boring and bland. I like diversity and complexity. LFD waters down the entire game for me and makes progression trivial.

So, if we remove LFR to suit YOUR opinion, that would only leave Harcore raiding. One Option. Hmmm. But you said "If everyone is the same, the world is simple, boring and bland" so by removing the choices, you are making everything the same for everyone. You can't have it both ways. YOUR opinion matters to YOU and you alone. I should not have to play by YOUR ruleset. My gameplay is based on the features available to me and not the self-centered viewpoint of a "hardcore" raider.

[Osmeric]

Honest question: Couldn't that just be reforged?

Yes. Also, there are +hit/+expertise enchants. And the ilvl 476 honor gear has lots of sockets, which can take hit/expertise gems.

[Dazu]

Did someone really just ask for TBC alt progression to come back? really you want to run multiple heroics to attune for kara after a lengthy quest chain, attune for the eye and SSC, just to attune for BT/Hyjal? All the while the only real way to gear is via previous raids so purely at the fate of RNG. It wasnt until the last patch a new dungeon was added ie SWP + Magisters Terrace. Once again the gear helped to get into about t5 early t6 so still far from the current end game at that time. Badge gear only filled some holes, did not completely gear you.

[xanzul]

I think Justice Points is a joke at the moment. I'm not saying you should be able to buy itlvl 522-gear with it, but at this time, at least 376 epics or something? Right now the stuff you buy for Justice is even worse than what drops in HCs, and it's barely better than what drops in some of the normal dungeons. I honestly don't know what I should do with all my Justice Points.

I think Blizzard is slowly phasing out the dual currency system for pve which is perfectly fine. It was a cluster fuck when it started in Wrath and has gone downhill since.

[-Superman-]

Yes. Also, there are +hit/+expertise enchants. And the ilvl 476 honor gear has lots of sockets, which can take hit/expertise gems.

So essentially PvP gear could serve a purpose at 476 until better PvE gear could be attained. That works. I was genuinely curious.

[ShimmerSwirl]

So, if we remove LFR to suit YOUR opinion, that would only leave Harcore raiding. One Option. Hmmm. But you said "If everyone is the same, the world is simple, boring and bland" so by removing the choices, you are making everything the same for everyone. You can't have it both ways. YOUR opinion matters to YOU and you alone. I should not have to play by YOUR ruleset. My gameplay is based on the features available to me and not the self-centered viewpoint of a "hardcore" raider.

And what is your viewpoint if not selfserving? Don't pretend to be such a saint, you want content tailored for you, I want content tailored for me.

[Osmeric]

So essentially PvP gear could serve a purpose at 476 until better PvE gear could be attained. That works. I was genuinely curious.

And since one can convert 375 JP into 250 honor (at the JP trade good vendors in SW/Org), you can even get all that honor gear by just chaining heroic 5 mans and scenarios.

[-Superman-]

And what is your viewpoint if not selfserving? Don't pretend to be such a saint, you want content tailored for you, I want content tailored for me.

My viewpoint allows the other 97% of the casual playebase to experience all the content that WoW has to offer. Your opinion on the matter seeks to REMOVE the ability for the 97% casual base to see anything at all because it is not "the pinnacle of raiding perfection and gives the greatest reward". We just want to raid and should not have to grind 30+ hours a week and then join a hardcore guild and HOPE for a spot and then get removed because LIFE got in the way.

We want to raid when we have the time. We want to experience the game at OUR pace... not yours. We want the right to get into a lessor raiding forum and experience the content in our own way... not the way some HARDCORE dictates. LFR was made for the people, it was a request of the people, and aside from an over abundance of gold bags, is exactly what the casuals wanted. And now you think it should be scrapped cause it "dilutes" YOUR idea of raid progression. We pay $15 a month to play too and do NOT have to do it on anyone else's terms but our own.

PS - 25M Heroic has always been tailored to Heroic. You keep yours and we will keep ours.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 01:42 PM ----------

And since one can convert 375 JP into 250 honor (at the JP trade good vendors in SW/Org), you can even get all that honor gear by just chaining heroic 5 mans and scenarios.

That's good to know. Thanks

[xanzul]

You can (and should) completely skip 5man dungeons and get 476 honor gear instead. Get up to 470, run the old LFRs once with 20 coins (from thunder island key scenario) and tada 480. If you get stuck on 479 or something you can always wait a week and get 20 more charms from the treasure scenario thing and get the 522 necklace.

It's not great, but at least there is a sneaky shortcut to get an alt up to viable Ilvls (480+).

There is nothing wrong with doing this by the way. The item budget doesn't take the pvp stats into consideration.

[Osmeric]

The way Blizz does it know, raiding it greatly cheapened for everyone. LFR is not even raiding, lets be honest. And the thrill for the hardcore players is greatly reduced knowing that everyone who can click a que button can do the same things they are.

The hardcore players you mention there were living on a sinking island. Raids could not continue to be provided without a better ROI than catering to that tiny minority.

The notion that the great majority of players would continue to play, just so the hardcores could feel smug at the top of their exclusive heap, never had any grounding in reality.

[Revak]

There was a time when people actually raided for fun rather than just as a means to a end.

Oh I do. On my main. If you read my comment it was about alts. I like to play lots of alts. I don't want to sit in 5.0/5.1 raids the entirety of this expansion just b/c one of my alts gets zero drops. It is Blizz that said LFR is a catch-up mechanic. It's a poor one. I don't have to catch up on my main and we raid 2 nights per week and it's fun. I don't care about gear. I care that on my alts the only thing I can do to raid is the previous LFR's over and over and dailies over and over so that I can someday get to the item level required for the newer LFR's.....which I'm not burned out on.

I've leveled 5 90's now. I do BG's on one of my toons. I have 5 other toons at 85 or above. I have a monk at 67 on the opposing faction. I grind old raids for fun, transmog, and mounts. I help out guildies. I run dungeons and scenarios. And yes, I do a lot of dailies on a lot of toons. Your comment is that of a smart-ass trying to prove he is better than someone else on a forum. I've played since vanilla and there is not a time that I wasn't willing to do dailies, grind rep, grind resist gear, play catch-up, or whatever is required to better my toons. And I never venture that far beyond what is fun to me in the game.

Blizz's "catch-up" idea is nothing more than sitting around waiting for queues and hoping to get lucky with drops....all the while encouraging you to do dailies so that you can get an extra roll for those drops. At least in previous expansions there were some dungeons where you could have a little bit of variance to the fun and "catch-up" that also tied into the story.

[Tomana]

And since one can convert 375 JP into 250 honor (at the JP trade good vendors in SW/Org), you can even get all that honor gear by just chaining heroic 5 mans and scenarios.

Yes, and I also carried over 10k honor in Krasarang rare tokens on an alt (it does not work on a main alas )