1.7.2 Patch Notes

[Bizzaro Stormy]

The SWTOR forum community is really the worst. You have the worst kind of haters there, and the worst kind of blindfolded fans. The only other community I've seen this blindly loyal to their brand are the most hardcore of Apple fans, and they are absolutely terrifying.

My favorite is how even posts that are mildly critical of the game have to start with a paragraph about just how much the poster LOVES SWTOR but just has this ONE MINISCULE complaint that doesn't even matter and actually could be a positive but just thought I'd vent and by the way I LOVE THE GAME.

But, from what I can tell, the official forums are almost solely devoted to etymology and discussing various definitions of words like:

"Content"

"Pay-to-Win"

"Expansion"

"Entitlement"

"Optional Grind"

It's like a bunch of middle-schoolers wandered into a Star Wars cantina, got drunk on the Oxford Dictionary, and puked all over the internet.

[quras]

I don't know. What's really so wrong with rewarding someone for buying X packs? I mean, you could go two ways here:

1. The item has a 10% chance of being in the pack.
2. Each pack has 1 ticket, collect 10 tickets and get the item.

To me, those two methods are pretty much the same, especially if 2 is in addition to other items. Some differences because of probability, but the expected outcome is the same. It's pretty much just like those old promotions where you cut out UPC codes of cereal boxes and then send a bunch to the company for a special item.

As for subscribers, it's not content. Content is where you actually get to do something, not just buy cosmetic items.

I do think they may have made a mistake using the Reputation system, though. All the other Rep systems are content, and this one not being content does confuse the issue. They should have just used a unique currency token, and put up the vendor which only used those tokens.

Unless the guy is lying (and thats possible on forums) a SWTOR poster said he bought 96 new packs and only got 8 certs. He got rep every pack but not anywhere near enough certs. to actually buy items.

Thats not good.

[Edge-]

I don't know. What's really so wrong with rewarding someone for buying X packs?

Why should they be rewarded in addition to what they purchase? Is there reward not the items in the pack, some of which can only be found in those packs and can sell for quite a hefty profit?

The packs are a game of chance, gambling if you will. Players know that going into it, and if they aren't ok with the fact that they purchasing a game of chance with each pack, they shouldn't buy them.

Apparently though, people are ok with it as it' the best selling type of item. Why need any further incentive then? why the need for an exclusive reward?

---------- Post added 2013-03-12 at 01:08 PM ----------

My favorite is how even posts that are mildly critical of the game have to start with a paragraph about just how much the poster LOVES SWTOR but just has this ONE MINISCULE complaint that doesn't even matter and actually could be a positive but just thought I'd vent and by the way I LOVE THE GAME.

But, from what I can tell, the official forums are almost solely devoted to etymology and discussing various definitions of words like:

"Content"

"Pay-to-Win"

"Expansion"

"Entitlement"

"Optional Grind"

It's like a bunch of middle-schoolers wandered into a Star Wars cantina, got drunk on the Oxford Dictionary, and puked all over the internet.

Hahahahahaha, I may have to jump over there for a more in-depth look. That sounds like a lot of /popcorn (and your last sentence is great, +1)

[Bizzaro Stormy]

Hahahahahaha, I may have to jump over there for a more in-depth look. That sounds like a lot of /popcorn

Just be careful, it'll make you dumber. And very, very sad.

Or at least, it makes me sad. I like to imagine an alternate reality where SWTOR took off big, largely bug free, and loaded with features, and the content was fantastic for raiders/gamers and role players alike. In that reality, the official forums are vibrant and everyone is complaining about other things (even in the alternate reality, forums are for complaining) like minor class balance issues, cheap strats for defeating bosses, why ABC is better than XYZ, so and so is gaming the crafting system, item x doesn't drop enough, guild y is headhunting guild z, etc. etc. Complaints from a healthy, vibrant game - not a game where everyone is arguing over whether an addition to a cash shop counts as "content" or what types of content constitute/don't constitute "P2W" or, worst of all, the exact metes and bounds of what subscribers are and aren't "entitled" to as part of their monthly subscription.

[Arlee]

You got caught in the filter again Stormy.

This "new" development is perfectly consistent with the long-term goals for SWTOR (I've said some of this before, but it bears repeating).

Objectively, the SWTOR that was completely failed (or just completely failed to meet expectations) and bled out a massive amount of subscribers. What's left of the wreckage is a couple hundred thousand folks who will, almost literally, put up with anything EA throws at them, solely because of the strength of the Star Wars brand.

This is completely unique - no other IP has that kind of power. In that context, EA has the perfect opportunity to freely experiment with SWTOR however they want, in a consequence free environment (the consequences were already paid when about 2 million people bailed on the game). Now, it's just about experimenting to see how much money they can milk from their remaining player base - because, artistic integrity aside, it makes more business sense to pull in $60/mo. from 250,000 subscribers than $15/mo. from 1,000,000 subscribers . . . especially if that revenue comes from a cheap-to-make cash shop versus engaging content.

SWTOR is turning into little more than Hello Barbie Online, where a subscription is a way to show how much you "support the game" and the cash shop is a way to make your role-playing character pretty. They've tacked DLC onto a subscription game; turned an MMO into what amounts to Vegas-light via "gambling packs;" while carefully rationing out the bare minimum of content (not as it's developed, but rather hording what's done and presenting it piecemeal); released bugs willy-nilly; charging Huttloads of real money for subpar cosmetic items; created a cash shop that will operate as an alternative to gearing up in game; all but eliminating customer service or community outreach.

Some of this is breaking new ground, slowly and steadily so that the remaining player base can at least pretend they're not being fleeced; some of it is just an expansion of ideas used in other games. But in the end, EA is in a great position (not just for their company, but for the industry as a whole) to see just how much a dedicated core of subscribers will actually pay to play an MMO. A lot of Star Wars fans seem to have a void in their life that can only be filled by something (anything) related to Star Wars, and the only two questions EA needs to find an answer to is "how much of their monthly income will those folks pay us?" and "what's the least amount of effort we can put out to obtain that income?"

Here's the latest example, and I promise you it's not the F2P players that are gonna drop oodles of money on reputation-based gambling packs; it'll be those same subscribers that have been around all along. I'll make another promise too - subs aren't going to drop by any real degree. Anyone who was going to quit did it long before now. The real threshold for driving away the remaining subscribers hasn't been met yet, and likely won't be met as long as there is some way to rationalize why paying/gambling for pixels is no different than playing to play a video game's actual content.

[Kelimbror]

@Stormy - Well Said

Sadly the experience just makes me more dejected because even as someone who isn't nuts abotu SWTOR, something about that IP had me elated to play the game. Something about blasters, sabers, and whatnot just clicks so perfectly. Lucas before he was Lucas was really a conceptual genius.

He had the greatest idea ever for hundreds of people to follow to make amazing...and unfortunately for hundreds of people to ruin even worse than he ever could. SWTOR is an example of the latter.

[RohanV]

Why should they be rewarded in addition to what they purchase? Is there reward not the items in the pack, some of which can only be found in those packs and can sell for quite a hefty profit?

The packs are a game of chance, gambling if you will. Players know that going into it, and if they aren't ok with the fact that they purchasing a game of chance with each pack, they shouldn't buy them.

Let me rephrase. What's wrong with experimenting with how rewards are delivered? Why can't a pack contain components for an item which has to be assembled?

The model where a pack either has the item or it doesn't is not the only possible model. This method is a bit different, but it does not fundamentally change anything. It's still cosmetic items, it's still not content. As far as I can see, it's just a different way of delivering the item.

[Kelimbror]

Let me rephrase. What's wrong with experimenting with how rewards are delivered? Why can't a pack contain components for an item which has to be assembled?

What's wrong with exponentially exploiting people's gambling habits? Oh I dunno...in terms of business ethics it's pretty awful. These things have a chance to have a chance to build a part of a thing that builds another thing. That's a pretty bad road to go down.

Additionally it's the clarification that has made this issue far, far worse than it would have been.

[sxar]

Unless the guy is lying (and thats possible on forums) a SWTOR poster said he bought 96 new packs and only got 8 certs. He got rep every pack but not anywhere near enough certs. to actually buy items.

Thats not good.

It is not the whole story. Certs are only needed for a few of the available items, such as Revan's Mask which requires 10 certs and 100k credits. Only the very rare items from previous packs require certs.

[philefluxx]

Its sad that every patch notes starts with "Blah blah blah on the Cartel Market".....

[namelessone]

The sad thing is how they fail to realize that the best way to make money from microtransactions is to make sure as many people as possible are PLAYING and ENJOYING your free to play game. People would spend more money if they are actually attached to the game and to the characters. Hell, this is why people play WoW for like 8 years, even when they are bored of it - because they are emotionally attached to the characters, the guilds, the game itself. BioWare should be encouraging people to play their game, not to put stupid barriers, ESPECIALLY to monthly subscribers.

I wouldn't mind paying for rep boosts, or xp boosts, or something like WoW Elder Charms (chance to get extra item off raid bosses), if I was actually interested in their game LONG TERM. If they can't get me hooked, I'll never spend a penny there.

[Bizzaro Stormy]

@Stormy - Well Said

Sadly the experience just makes me more dejected because even as someone who isn't nuts abotu SWTOR, something about that IP had me elated to play the game. Something about blasters, sabers, and whatnot just clicks so perfectly. Lucas before he was Lucas was really a conceptual genius.

He had the greatest idea ever for hundreds of people to follow to make amazing...and unfortunately for hundreds of people to ruin even worse than he ever could. SWTOR is an example of the latter.

Agreed. I had hoped that the money being funneled into SWTOR was going to push new MMO boundaries, and either cut the legs out from under WoW, or at least create enough serious competition to spur even more innovation and ground-breaking gameplay. Barring that, was it too much to hope for a game that at least continued to remain a game, versus a digital casino with a $15/mo. cover charge?

So it's back once again to EVE online, where the PvP is boring, the PvE is tedius . . . but at least you can tell the developers are interested in making a game, not a pure revenue treadmill. The player base there may be socially retarded, but at least they were smart enough to outright stomp on the developers the first time they tried to implement serious micro-transactions.

[WoWGoneBad]

so funny thing just now in the ilum pvp area
i just got ganked by lvl 19 commando with pvp bolster i thought it was funny and wanted to share is all

[namelessone]

Agreed. I had hoped that the money being funneled into SWTOR was going to push new MMO boundaries, and either cut the legs out from under WoW, or at least create enough serious competition to spur even more innovation and ground-breaking gameplay.

Just out of curiosity, what made you believe this would be the case? As far as I remember, the very first presentations of SWTOR screamed wow-clone with voice-overs. Heck, even before presentations, when they were just talking about concept, all they talked about was this mysterious "fourth pillar" of MMO, being "story". It was obvious from the get go that they have no intention of making a groundbreaking game. Look at the first presentations of GW2 or Elder Scrolls Online - devs straight up talk about new concept, innovations.

Now, I don't mind a WoW-clone, as long as it is GOOD, or at least as good as the other game. If swtor was as polished at launch, it would have the best game ever for me, considering how much I love their universe and style.

[darkjuggalo2000]

Just out of curiosity, what made you believe this would be the case? As far as I remember, the very first presentations of SWTOR screamed wow-clone with voice-overs. Heck, even before presentations, when they were just talking about concept, all they talked about was this mysterious "fourth pillar" of MMO, being "story". It was obvious from the get go that they have no intention of making a groundbreaking game. Look at the first presentations of GW2 or Elder Scrolls Online - devs straight up talk about new concept, innovations.

Now, I don't mind a WoW-clone, as long as it is GOOD, or at least as good as the other game. If swtor was as polished at launch, it would have the best game ever for me, considering how much I love their universe and style.

It is true that the game was very "unpolished" at Start up and of coarse it is going to be like wow its the structure of all mmo games much like wow had features the Star wars galaxies and Everquest had before its existance. All games take features from others and try to imporve upon it but they are not going to change to much of it due to the fact that people love those features... But what is funny about all this wow clone talk is in the begining upon Beta everyone in general chat was complaining about SWTOR doesnt have this feature and wow did, they flooded bioware with so many complaints about how it didnt play like wow and they wanted the features that wow had and that it needed to be more like wow... Now after Bioware gave everyone those feature everyone says "its just another Wow but in space" Bioware gave you what you wanted and now you dont want it... I was drawn to it because im a star wars geek, and will allways be a star wars geek. Sure the game is glitchy as all hell and has all sorts of crashes and issues but it is still very enjoyable and I for one love it.

[WoWGoneBad]

ok so i came across this and DAMN if it aint a ringer for the F2P vs. Subber argument

"Ok that is fine. Then add the existing rep. items to those packs + an ingame way to get rep. with the new faction. Not make it only obtainable through cartel packs."

"Why should they reward you the same as people that spend beyond their subscription and buy cartel packs so things like f2p can exist?"
http://www.swtor.com/community/showt...=609921&page=4

taken in context of rep grind for real money vs not spending money it is the same argument of why should F2P get the same access as a sub.

now while i do NOT agree with what BWEA did with this bullharkey this is a very valid argment and what my inital thoughts were in a previous post

I mean yeah i get WHY they are rewarding those who pay for the packs.. they are spending MORE real money for in game pixels(subs and F2P both btw) but that is just the WRONG WAY to go about this.

we subberes fought that F2P should not be allowed the same access to the game as we who PAID

now here we are weith the new rep system
swtor players in general: its BS that we have to pay for this rep rind
Eric: we are rewarding those who buy the packs
CM whales: why should you guys get access to something that we are PAYING real CASH for.

so while i still disagree with what they did i can see the WHY they did. does is suck YES should it change well..... in not sure. how would all the subbers feel if F2P got access to ALL the game for free. this is how the CM whales are looking at the CM pack rep system and rewards

[Deleted]

It seems despite me laying out the price estimates in multiple threads on the swtor forums, some still stick to the 'just buy it off the GTN' line.

It will cost around 80mil credits to hit Legend on my server (using the average pack price on the GTN). It is possible. It's just not realistic at all for the majority of people.

Apart from myself I don't know one person ingame with even half that amount. For Musco himself to suggest it as some sort of feasible alternative is past laughable and into the 'intelligence insulting zone'.

I'm hoping they adjust this particular reputation to at least earn some via ingame play. If the feedback continues to be vastly negative it may just convince them to change something...or maybe not

I love the Legend Title btw, Contraband Connoisseur, very apt for my Smuggler.

Whhhaaaattttt, 80 mil credits to hit Legend? Would be even be more if it's my server. I would need to check the GTN when I can come online and make the calculations myself.

Why am I not surprised EA has come up with the idea to let players able to farm rep only by buying Cartel Market packs? Ever since the Cartel Market is in the game, almost every patch is flooded with Cartel Market stuff. I don't know about others, but this is getting out of hand in my opinion. Their focus isn't developing game content anymore (doh to myself), just making/putting items and wrap them up in a Cartel Market pack or coming up with ways that is solely exclusive to the packs. I don't like the idea you can only get those rep items from buying the Cartel Market packs.

And looking how they put gear into the game, I am 100% sure they never implement an armor dye system into the game. Look how many recoloured armors they add to the rep vendors or the cartel market packs.

I understand from a business point of view as a company you exists to make/generate money/profits. But the way how they want to make money is something that is just leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. And they will continue to do so as long as there are ppl around that keeps buying stuff that EA keeps offering. I seriously want to tell those ppl in front of their faces, stop it... please stop it, you are actually making the situation even worse...

I love the game, never really into Star Wars. I only watched the movies a few times on television. But oh dear what is EA turning the game into or should I say what are you ppl that are paying for those packs turning the game into?

If you are able to, please show me I'm just wrong in thinking the above... I really don't know anymore. Ah well, there always other MMORPGs I can play, Tera Onilne, GW2, WoW, RIFT and ones I'm looking forward: D&D Neverwinter, Dragon's Prophet, Scarlet Blade, Elder Scrolls Online. Of course not all of them are going to be great games, but still.

[RoninaThorstone]

we subberes fought that F2P should not be allowed the same access to the game as we who PAID

Meanwhile the F2Ps stared at you subbers thinking, "Wait, I WANT to BUY access to X content. Why won't they let me?" (ranked wz, nmm/ hm ops)

It was an interesting debate to watch / partake in because the subbers were arguing with nonexistent people.

[notorious98]

so while i still disagree with what they did i can see the WHY they did. does is suck YES should it change well..... in not sure. how would all the subbers feel if F2P got access to ALL the game for free. this is how the CM whales are looking at the CM pack rep system and rewards

Here's the issue. And I pointed this out on the forums despite the fact that I'll probably see the White Knight brigade coming through with their BW banners a-flappin'. I get it. We see this type of thing plenty in regular businesses. You pay more, you get more. Spend more at a certain place, get a better discount than someone who spends less. Pay $400 more and get a better seat at the game. I get it. To me, it's not about the things in the packs (although don't they all look nice? Yet players get a horribly ugly blue eyeball from the Gree vendor.) It's about the rep being attached to it. First it's crystals with endgame stats. Then it's Grade 7 ship parts. Now it's reputation vendors with nice cosmetic gear. Slowly, but surely, they're steering the game more and more towards P2W. What they're doing is conditioning their audience for the transition at a very slow rate. In that aspect, it's a fucking terrible decision.

As for that "F2P existing" argument. Cartel packs go toward making new shit for new Cartel packs. Subscription money goes towards actual content. Notice the massive amount of good shit that goes into the Cartel packs vs. what's actually going into the game.

[RoninaThorstone]

As for that "F2P existing" argument. Cartel packs go toward making new shit for new Cartel packs. Subscription money goes towards actual content. Notice the massive amount of good shit that goes into the Cartel packs vs. what's actually going into the game.

6 months of 1.4 million people paying 15/mo bought... a 2 hour Easter egg hunt.

If subscription fees are suppose to go to content then I think we were robbed.