Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
LastLast
  1. #21
    Personally aiming for Zandalari + Brutal for normal tank fights and fortitude +jin'ku for survival fights (yes i'm too lazy to reforge gear for exp/hit after swapping trinkets).
    While i don't get the stam of barrier, the barrier effect seems like a joke and if anything i would rather have the extra health + small amount of heal-up if i dip too low every once in a while.

    Currently using Lei-shen orders + brutal (mostly because currently even reforging all of it away and not getting any from gems i'm still too heavy on hit). But GID is def going to be one of the best trinkets even going into this tier (most likely better than most of 5.2 lfr trinkets).

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by celinamuna View Post
    Personally aiming for Zandalari + Brutal for normal tank fights and fortitude +jin'ku for survival fights (yes i'm too lazy to reforge gear for exp/hit after swapping trinkets).
    While i don't get the stam of barrier, the barrier effect seems like a joke and if anything i would rather have the extra health + small amount of heal-up if i dip too low every once in a while.

    Currently using Lei-shen orders + brutal (mostly because currently even reforging all of it away and not getting any from gems i'm still too heavy on hit). But GID is def going to be one of the best trinkets even going into this tier (most likely better than most of 5.2 lfr trinkets).
    GID has no stamina on it. I'd say it is a secondary trinket at best for 25 man tanks (tank damage in 10m is non-existent compared to 25m - the second talon grab at ji-kun does 750k damage on 25m without a 40-50% CD running, it did about a third of that when we switched to 10m to try and nab the 6th kill).
    Intel i5 2500K (4.5 GHz) | Asus Z77 Sabertooth | 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP 1600MHz | Gigabyte Windforcex3 HD 7950 | Crucial M4 128GB | Asus Xonar DGX | Samson SR 850 | Zalman ZM-Mic1 | Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB | Noctua NH-U12P SE2 | Fractal Design Arc Midi | Corsair HX650

    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    GID has no stamina on it. I'd say it is a secondary trinket at best for 25 man tanks (tank damage in 10m is non-existent compared to 25m - the second talon grab at ji-kun does 750k damage on 25m without a 40-50% CD running, it did about a third of that when we switched to 10m to try and nab the 6th kill).
    I never said anything about using GID for "survival" fights, but as per general rule i try to avoid stam trinkets (granted i also only do 10 man)

  4. #24
    The Patient
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    England
    Posts
    262
    Anyone had a chance to test out Talisman of Bloodlust yet?

    Would be quite interested in knowing the uptime %.
    Arneia/Panthea - Guild Master + Raid Leader - <Catalyst> 25man Horde - Tarren Mill - Currently Recruiting: Click for more info

  5. #25
    For what it's worth Ji'Kuns did 1% of my total healing during our Lei Shen kill.

    Normal modes are not the level of play our healers are used to however so I'd expect the value to increase throughout heroic progression, and decrease naturally through gear acquisition.

    Not seen any of the other trinkets drop yet.

    I've changed my gearing paradigm for 5.2 also, haste to 5816 then mastery rather than all out haste. This may change again depending on difficulty of the heroic fights and/or DPS requirements.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by periad View Post
    For what it's worth Ji'Kuns did 1% of my total healing during our Lei Shen kill.

    Normal modes are not the level of play our healers are used to however so I'd expect the value to increase throughout heroic progression, and decrease naturally through gear acquisition.

    Not seen any of the other trinkets drop yet.

    I've changed my gearing paradigm for 5.2 also, haste to 5816 then mastery rather than all out haste. This may change again depending on difficulty of the heroic fights and/or DPS requirements.
    Yeah on our last Lei Shen kill, JiKun proc'd 2times for 80k healing. Underwhelming for sure, but as you said, it's normal mode. I'd still be happier with Fortitude of the Zandalari, if I'm going to use an expertise bank with a tank-effect, but no luck with that yet

    Why haste to 5816? Just for SS ticks? Are you doing 10s or 25s heroic progression?
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  7. #27
    5816 is the breakpoint for 9 SS ticks under Bloodlust, that's the only reason I chose it. The next breakpoint is ~11K which I could only reach if I went full haste and this left me feeling vulnerable to 3-4-5 attack streaks taking me under 30% HP. There's a bunch of math on www.sacredduty.net comparing the various build types if you're interested. From what I've seen of the heroic fights tank damage isn't quite as inconsequential as T14 so I chose to stack mastery from this point on.

    Doing 10's progression, if I was doing 25's I'd probably gem for stamina and then follow the same reforge path.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by periad View Post
    There's a bunch of math on www.sacredduty.net comparing the various build types if you're interested. From what I've seen of the heroic fights tank damage isn't quite as inconsequential as T14 so I chose to stack mastery from this point on.
    I would refrain to say that the math from SacredDuty is irrelevant, because it still give some pointers, however it is far from something you should look blindly at. It is closer to non-relevant than relevant.

    Basically, it is something you should read and know, but still, not base your gearing on it.

    SacredDuty maths assumes a constant stream of damage, this is not the case on a raid boss fight, which makes the math on SacredDuty not really applicable to a real boss encounter. It is not the boss melee swings that kill you on 10 man, it is those bigger attacks, Double swipe, snapping bite, breaths, talon rakes, etc etc. It is that larger predictable spike. While the math for simply checking melee swings on a boss is good to know, that is not what tanking is about.

    Checking my logs from yesterdays raid, only 39% of the damage I took was melee hit damage. Is it then reasonable that I base my gearing around that? Especially considering that the melee hit damage is (in most cases) static and constant. No, it is not. It is the large nukes that kills you.

    Perfectly simulating tanking is impossible. Every boss encounter is extremely different from the next in the damage in-take. This is why math falls short for tanks. Math can be used in some specific situations. Like "What stat is best to deal with this ability on this boss". Though, there is no way to determine what is the best and most correct choice. Especially considering the high skill cap on AM and that your healers will also affect your tanking. There are to many variables to consider. It is not that Theck did a bad job, he did a great job at calculating damage in-take from purely boss swings. Sadly, that is a small part of tanking.

    In my opinion, the best we can do, is read up on math to understand the class, but then use our own heads to determine what is best. Think for ourselves a bit.

    People have stared themselves way to blind on tanking theorycrafting without even considering the basics of tanking and what the presumption of that theorycrafting is.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-19 at 03:05 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  9. #29
    I'm not sure of the point of your post Firefly, I was merely linking to the math that shows probabilities of attack sequences within a certain time period and how the gearing of the paladin affects those percentages. Clearly the simulations are executed in a bubble where there is zero healing being accounted for, as there is no other way to simulate the gearing of a paladin and the effects you can personally have on your own survival.

    If we were to simulate a tanking scenario where you were receiving a constant 1million HPS as well as the damage from the boss you could correctly state that you could tank in full DPS gear with no consideration to anything at all. Therefore all we can do from a simulation point of view is theorise the effect within a sterile scenario.

    You, me, any experienced tank, knows that the real world is entirely different from this however, and changes their gearing strategy accordingly.

    As with all statistics it is the interpretation of said data by the reader that is important, not the existence of the data itself.

    However, if I take your counterpoint to the constant stream of incoming damage:

    - Double Swipe, avoidable
    - Snapping Bite, on a timer should have SoTR up
    - Breaths, on a timer should have DP/any other cooldown up, assuming you meant Megara here.
    - Talon Rake, on a timer should have SoTR up

    If these large spikes kill you it is the fault of the tank and no gearing strategy would save you.

    So what we are left with is the constant stream of melee damage which whilst it will not kill you in one hit it will kill you in 5 if you are not healed. Therefore the job of the tank at this point is to mitigate this damage as best they can which is what I used the math tables for, and my experience of the fights, to decide on a gearing strategy. As unlikely as this streak of white boss swings without any incoming healing is, it's still better as a tank in my opinion to mitigate the chance of it.
    Last edited by periad; 2013-03-19 at 03:33 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by periad View Post
    5816 is the breakpoint for 9 SS ticks under Bloodlust, that's the only reason I chose it. The next breakpoint is ~11K which I could only reach if I went full haste and this left me feeling vulnerable to 3-4-5 attack streaks taking me under 30% HP. There's a bunch of math on www.sacredduty.net comparing the various build types if you're interested. From what I've seen of the heroic fights tank damage isn't quite as inconsequential as T14 so I chose to stack mastery from this point on.

    Doing 10's progression, if I was doing 25's I'd probably gem for stamina and then follow the same reforge path.
    I guess we'll have to agree to diasgree on this. I'm running 11k haste, but not specifically for SS ticks, as in practice I refresh prior to expiration to account for vengeance changes, open globals, etc. Gearing for that under lust really makes it seem less useful, to me anyhow, in that under lust you're going to have even more AM uptime, which downplays the absorb values of SS (albeit slightly). I concur that tank damage this tier is more meaningful/threatening, but the large portion of the threatening damage is via telegraphed, ShotR-able (or HoPurity-able) specials.

    Also agree with Firefly in relation to tank damage "threats", esp in heroic. The math on SD is great, but it's from a stochastic mindset of averaging and constant stream. It's great theory, but once again in acutal practice, we see more tank threat from specials, magic, and/or combos than simple melee. Tortos HC for example can have every snapping bite covered by AM, which is the large majority of the tank damage on that fight. You could reduce the damage further via mastery stacking, but a ShotR'd snapping bite (should) never eat through your shield anyway. Same goes for HC Horridon and Trip Puncture, as we can cover all of those with AM and clear debuffs b/w doors, making that job very easy.

    At that point, I'd contend that the increase in self/raid healing and personal DPS from haste has more value than a further reduction in incoming physical damage. But, as I said, we see this differently clearly, so can agree to disagree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  11. #31
    My point was merely that people should not read SacredDuty as the bible. Since it is about as accurate as Noxxic guides(see what I did there?) to base paladin gearing on. I see SacredDuty thrown around way to much as "fact" and the only truth, while in reality it is not. The issue is not that the simulations are done in a bubble without healing, it is that they are done in a bubble without any other source of damage. To illustrate with some beautiful paint images.

    My damage taken on a random boss kill log in ToT (gladly, check your own damage taken logs on fights).


    The damage taken for a tank on those tanking theory crafting fights.



    The problem is that people are using that second image as a basis of their gearing and trying to put a = between those two images. That is simply wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 04:45 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    -text-
    Pretty much what no-avatar-yet said.

    To make his point even clearer, imagine Sha of Fear. You have enough holy power to cover every thrash even at 0% haste, easily.

    Adding more haste therefor, will only allow you to cover more regular melee hits, which are a non-concern, with SotR.
    Adding more master instead, would allow you to have a much larger protection up for the thrashes which were the only real concern.
    I would rather have a larger protection on the only part that can actually kill me then reduce the damage on a few more non-important attacks.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-19 at 03:45 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #32
    I don't believe I said it was fact, I linked it for the math tables to show the effects of gearing strategies within a bubble of no healing and no special attacks that each gearing strategy is used for. I did not link it with the caveat "Theck says do this, you must comply", nor do I say that now or in my previous post. My previous post explains how I use the information to gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi
    At that point, I'd contend that the increase in self/raid healing and personal DPS from haste has more value than a further reduction in incoming physical damage. But, as I said, we see this differently clearly, so can agree to disagree.
    There's no need to disagree, I completely agree with you, and this is the strategy we all used in T14. I just feel safer at the moment gearing the way I do as there is more danger in T15 from the white hits. I expect this will change as gear acquisition softens the effect and experience of the fights allows the healers more prediction and I'll change back to haste. You even said it yourself that the telegraphed dangerous effects should be covered by SoTR/cooldowns - the only difference at the moment is that I'm gearing for safety while you're gearing for DPS

    All raid groups are different but I must say that a lot of my healing from Insight is going into overheal anyway.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    To make his point even clearer, imagine Sha of Fear. You have enough holy power to cover every thrash even at 0% haste, easily.

    Adding more haste therefor, will only allow you to cover more regular melee hits, which are a non-concern, with SotR.
    Adding more master instead, would allow you to have a much larger protection up for the thrashes which were the only real concern.
    I would rather have a larger protection on the only part that can actually kill me then reduce the damage on a few more non-important attacks.
    Playing Devil's Advocate here; what you're suggesting in this case would be Mastery stacking (which is what most Prot's on Sha did), since you were only concerned with Dread Thrash. Haste would only buff your ShotR uptime on the "non-consequential" melee outside of Thrashes, and provide its passive DPS/HPS benefits.

    Not arguing that, as Mastery is our strongest actual tank stat, but simply saying that I feel that I, personally, get enough from gear/Might to mitigate effectively, ergo I push haste in 10m settings, even on t15 HC progression, for the other passive benefits it provides. I've not gotten far enough in heroics yet to feel the need to switch to Mastery stacking, but as my ilvl continues to increase, I am afforded the luxury of maintaining both stats at a decent pace. That said, having now hit the 11k mark, I'm feeling that I may start working to up my EH a bit more as we look forward to later bosses, but that's going to be a judgement call after this week's progression.

    There's no need to disagree, I completely agree with you, and this is the strategy we all used in T14. I just feel safer at the moment gearing the way I do as there is more danger in T15 from the white hits. I expect this will change as gear acquisition softens the effect and experience of the fights allows the healers more prediction and I'll change back to haste. You even said it yourself that the telegraphed dangerous effects should be covered by SoTR/cooldowns - the only difference at the moment is that I'm gearing for safety while you're gearing for DPS

    All raid groups are different but I must say that a lot of my healing from Insight is going into overheal anyway.
    Apparently we posted more or less the same thing here, in terms of "future-proofing" our tanking sets. It seems we're just working towards the same middle goal but starting from opposite ends. Not sure how far you are in Heroic content, as that may also explain some of the discrepancy, though I am betting more of it is explained by personal preference (both of which are legitimate reasons).
    Last edited by Nairobi; 2013-03-19 at 04:03 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  14. #34
    Yes, I expect it's personal preference at this point, I'm only at the start of heroics myself.

    Off-topic, or I should say further off-topic, avatars are the devils work and signatures are not far off, I have both turned off! If it wasn't for the option to turn these off I doubt I'd ever browse an internet forum. I cannot stand the clutter and godawful quotes. Almost as bad as car bumper stickers.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by periad View Post
    I don't believe I said it was fact, I linked it for the math tables to show the effects of gearing strategies within a bubble of no healing and no special attacks that each gearing strategy is used for. I did not link it with the caveat "Theck says do this, you must comply", nor do I say that now or in my previous post. My previous post explains how I use the information to gear.
    Relax, was not meant to offend you I was enlightening for people that follow that link that it closer to gossip than a gospel.
    Giving links to the lurkers on the forums is dangerous. As people often blindly follow them as fact. Important go also give criticism to sources of information. That is all what I tried to do.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 06:29 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Playing Devil's Advocate here; what you're suggesting in this case would be Mastery stacking (which is what most Prot's on Sha did), since you were only concerned with Dread Thrash. Haste would only buff your ShotR uptime on the "non-consequential" melee outside of Thrashes, and provide its passive DPS/HPS benefits.

    Not arguing that, as Mastery is our strongest actual tank stat, but simply saying that I feel that I, personally, get enough from gear/Might to mitigate effectively, ergo I push haste in 10m settings, even on t15 HC progression, for the other passive benefits it provides. I've not gotten far enough in heroics yet to feel the need to switch to Mastery stacking, but as my ilvl continues to increase, I am afforded the luxury of maintaining both stats at a decent pace. That said, having now hit the 11k mark, I'm feeling that I may start working to up my EH a bit more as we look forward to later bosses, but that's going to be a judgement call after this week's progression.
    Yeah, that is the other side of the coin. If you have enough stamina/mastery to survive whatever you are tanking, then why not go for more dps a.k.a. haste. Since is also provides decent TDR and DPS increase.

    This is the reason I do not gear for mastery and stamina, because I feel like I can survive the encounters without them.

    If I was having a lot of issues with constantly dieng then I would opt out of haste, but currently I have no such issues, hence, haste is my best way to go.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #36
    Mechagnome Lethora's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Moscow, Russia
    Posts
    585
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    This is the reason I do not gear for mastery and stamina, because I feel like I can survive the encounters without them.
    Exactly this. And it also feels good to be one of the top DPS. For example, I was #1 on our Durumu kill this week (this is 25man, mind you). And I'm constantly getting into top spots.
    Running with 12.2k haste atm. Feels good.
    Lethora, 90 Protection Paladin, Shadowsong-EU
    Amberglow, 90 Assassination Rogue, Shadowsong-EU
    Raiding 25man, 10hrs/week, 14/14H.

  17. #37
    Agreed with the DPS.

    Got a #1 ranking on HC JinRohk last night

    But I had 3 (THREE!) deaths on Horridon HC that were from melee-Dire Call-Trip Punc c-c-c-combo breakers that had overkill of 2000 or less (through ShotR, ofc). Maybe I need a TAD more mastery Was doing beast DPS on him tho!
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Agreed with the DPS.

    Got a #1 ranking on HC JinRohk last night

    But I had 3 (THREE!) deaths on Horridon HC that were from melee-Dire Call-Trip Punc c-c-c-combo breakers that had overkill of 2000 or less (through ShotR, ofc). Maybe I need a TAD more mastery Was doing beast DPS on him tho!
    Easier to get 2k life than 2k mastery rating
    Intel i5 2500K (4.5 GHz) | Asus Z77 Sabertooth | 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP 1600MHz | Gigabyte Windforcex3 HD 7950 | Crucial M4 128GB | Asus Xonar DGX | Samson SR 850 | Zalman ZM-Mic1 | Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB | Noctua NH-U12P SE2 | Fractal Design Arc Midi | Corsair HX650

    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    Easier to get 2k life than 2k mastery rating
    I suppose I can/should swap out JiKun's [garbage] trinket. That POS was like 0.4% of my healing, and only ever proc'd its weak-ass heal ON the killshot combo. Guess I could swap some stam back in, but ugh....I already reforged around it!
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I suppose I can/should swap out JiKun's [garbage] trinket. That POS was like 0.4% of my healing, and only ever proc'd its weak-ass heal ON the killshot combo. Guess I could swap some stam back in, but ugh....I already reforged around it!
    ^why I don't use accuracy trinkets.
    Intel i5 2500K (4.5 GHz) | Asus Z77 Sabertooth | 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP 1600MHz | Gigabyte Windforcex3 HD 7950 | Crucial M4 128GB | Asus Xonar DGX | Samson SR 850 | Zalman ZM-Mic1 | Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB | Noctua NH-U12P SE2 | Fractal Design Arc Midi | Corsair HX650

    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •