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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by LogixTN View Post
    I know that, but playing in a 10 man in the current state is frustrating and the probability to get benched is quite high so any buff no matter how small it is, it counts. On the same note, I don't care how fire will scale with HC gear. I can't care less about that since progress is not made in T15 HC gear but in the current one.

    I don't understand how this happens but something is really wrong with the mage class in terms of balancing. For at least 3 years, Blizzard goes from 1 extreme to another.

    Also, I fail to understand the LB spread via IB removal.


    I'm not defending Blizzard but they wanted to make bombs more like a choice. LB spreading via Fireblast made LB somewhat required for fire mages on most fights.

    Plus Frost bomb detonation was an issue on PvP.

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    A 4-5% DPS buff to Mages....
    After the 25-30% nerf to mages...

    My AoE is now where it used to be before 5.2, however the NT 'buff' barely puts a dent in the last place position.

  3. #203
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    So, fire being over 10k below affliction means our ST is ok? lol

    And no, don't come with this "its ok to be mid pack". All pures have a spec in top5 single target, hybrids liking or not - all pures except mages of course.

    Like I said many times. If a mage has any self-respect left (or any respect for its raid mates), he should: a) reroll a much better ranged class (and by much better, let me emphasize MUCH); b) unsub.
    Did I say that it was OK? No, I didn't. I simply said Fire was performing better by comparison.

    However. Take Durumuru. Fire on 112, Affliction on 123.

    112*1.04 (rough increase from NT buff) = 116.48
    123*0.96 (rough decrease from Corrup nerf) = 118.08

    Oh, funny that. Things *should* (not saying WILL) be more even now on ST.

    A Mage who has self-respect wouldn't unsub, a Mage who had self-respect would find a way to play to benefit their raid, whether that be re-rolling or improving their play. My guild managed to clear 12/12N last week and any fight that I missed wasn't out of forceful benching but personal choice, and at no time did I feel like I was dragging the raid down or being carried.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    unsub
    I've put in my cancel tonight .... after all, now that I'm under powered for raiding - once I've done the dailies etc I've finished 5.2 content. I play an arcane mage... love playing an arcane mage. Been playing it through thick and thin for almost 8 years (since I got to level 60). This is the first time things are so bad that I don't see any point turning up.

    Back then - I had utility when I didn't have top dps. Today, I turn up - don't need to buff anyone, don't need to do anything at all except try to beat the tank dps. Not a chance single target.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-13 at 12:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    A Mage who has self-respect wouldn't unsub, a Mage who had self-respect would find a way to play to benefit their raid, whether that be re-rolling .
    So the self respecting mage should realise that a mage sucks and stop playing a mage.

    That is another option I suppose, but I wouldn't call it 'mage self respect'

  5. #205
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    So the self respecting mage should realise that a mage sucks and stop playing a mage.

    That is another option I suppose, but I wouldn't call it 'mage self respect'
    You say you struggle to beat your tank on Single Target damage, personally I'd say it's you who sucks. Harsh as that may be if you can't beat a tank that's not Mages as a whole, that's you, even as Arcane.

  6. #206
    Deleted
    man some people overreact much?
    the bomb buffs are a first step to addressing some of the issues, if that doesnt work theyve already said they'll change something else, its not like its 6+ months with no word, its a week and a bit since 5.2!
    if you really are just trying to beat tank dps then either your guild is amazing or you are doing something seriously wrong.

  7. #207
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon9870 View Post
    Which is how I feel about Arcane.

    Arcane is the ULTIMATE turret specc. On Patchwerk-style fights, Arcane should ALWAYS, I mean, ALWAYS be the #1 DPS (unless the Mage has no idea how to play Mage or is completely ungeared against geared folk).
    I was just browsing the mage forum and could not help myself but respond to this post. For the sake of this game as a whole, I hope this never ever happens, or as a matter I hope such a thing does not happen for any class. The mage class is not entitled to be No1 DPS at any time just because it is the mage class. If I am missing something I am not someone to discard a well made argument, please enlighten me.

    P.S: I also hope we will never see a Patchwerk-like fight ever again.

  8. #208
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    You say you struggle to beat your tank on Single Target damage, personally I'd say it's you who sucks. Harsh as that may be if you can't beat a tank that's not Mages as a whole, that's you, even as Arcane.
    Well to be honest I consider myself to be a MAge that plays quite well. I have an itemlvl of 508 and am pretty good geared for frost. On te Killtry for Mageara I did 101k DMG overall. Our Druid Tank did 85k DMG Overall.

    Thats a 16k difference. I'm sorry but that is "hoping" to be over the tanks for me. Althought I have to say thst our top dps was a DK with 111k DMG.

    But still this is only a 26k difference to a friggin bear tank. So either they are doing to much or DMG classes are doing not enough. For ME this is beeing over the tank by a small margin

  9. #209
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mûe View Post
    Well to be honest I consider myself to be a MAge that plays quite well. I have an itemlvl of 508 and am pretty good geared for frost. On te Killtry for Mageara I did 101k DMG overall. Our Druid Tank did 85k DMG Overall.

    Thats a 16k difference. I'm sorry but that is "hoping" to be over the tanks for me. Althought I have to say thst our top dps was a DK with 111k DMG.

    But still this is only a 26k difference to a friggin bear tank. So either they are doing to much or DMG classes are doing not enough. For ME this is beeing over the tank by a small margin
    No disrespect, but if @ 508 iLvl you're pulling 101K I'd argue you're playing sub-optimally, or you're using a strange tactic.

  10. #210
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    No disrespect, but if @ 508 iLvl you're pulling 101K I'd argue you're playing sub-optimally, or you're using a strange tactic.
    I run. A lot... 3 Ice heads 4tw!

  11. #211
    Just did ToT last night for obviously the first time with the bomb changes. I am equipped in ilvl 512 (now 513) gear and actually raided last night as fire. These buffs make us a lot more competitive with the other classes, and have turned out to be a lot stronger than I anticipated. These buffs seem to definitely put us back in the mix with the other dps.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    You say you struggle to beat your tank on Single Target damage, personally I'd say it's you who sucks.
    Maybe I do, however - I used to not have that problem. SO obviously patch 5.2 included the 'I suck' debuff, which was obviously not documented.

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Did I say that it was OK? No, I didn't. I simply said Fire was performing better by comparison.

    However. Take Durumuru. Fire on 112, Affliction on 123.

    112*1.04 (rough increase from NT buff) = 116.48
    123*0.96 (rough decrease from Corrup nerf) = 118.08

    Oh, funny that. Things *should* (not saying WILL) be more even now on ST.

    A Mage who has self-respect wouldn't unsub, a Mage who had self-respect would find a way to play to benefit their raid, whether that be re-rolling or improving their play. My guild managed to clear 12/12N last week and any fight that I missed wasn't out of forceful benching but personal choice, and at no time did I feel like I was dragging the raid down or being carried.
    So Affliction locks, which have better mobility, better AoE, better single target, 2 unique (let me emphasize UNIQUE) utility tools (healthstones and portal), 2 raid buffs (spellpower and stamina), and are much less RNG-ish, are still above.

    And no I won't stop comparing mages to locks and locks to mages. They are both pures. Both ranged. And both casters. And I've been raiding with both since sunwell (and mage since vanilla), so I know what I'm talking about.

    Oh, well...

    Lets wait till ilvl 700 and fire will perform awesome.

    As for adapting. I've been doing it. I play either my lock (first option), my paladin healer (if my raid needs) or my mage (for nostalgia).

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Dalrath View Post
    if you really are just trying to beat tank dps then either your guild is amazing or you are doing something seriously wrong.
    Yes - I'm doing something seriously wrong, that I happened to start doing just after 5.2.

    I did around 6 or 7 tests with various talents, and stacking haste and mastery (at different times). The big change is that 5.2 reduced my self buffed maintainable dps from 80kdps to 50kdps on a target dummy. The recent NT buff did not take that over 60kdps.

    I'm not talking about how good I am here - I'm referring to the relative change comparing 5.1 to 5.2 same gear same me.

    I even know where the issue is... arcane missiles rarely ever gets the benefit of the 4-stack.

  15. #215
    To be clear. Buffs are welcome. I've tried bomb buff on our second raid grp (yeah mage IS NOT on heroic progression grp - my RL is not DUMB) and tab targetting + frost seems strong (and realiable source of dmg + BF procs)

    But it is not enough.

    I personally think mage needs a complete redesign, either getting away from "turret design" or giving firepower (rewards when standing still). I know its likely not to happen - at least not this xpac. So, when it comes to band-aid fixes, I'd be much happier if they buff invocation to 20%, RoP 25% (yes, ROP NEEDS higher modifier as it sucks balls in so many ways) and IW passive to 8-10%.

  16. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    But it is not enough.
    ACtually all they need to do is take the massive nerfs from 5.1 -> 5.2 - and halve them. That would bring us up into the middle of the pack, still not that attractive but at least slightly useful.

  17. #217
    Bopcommander... impressive logs, it gives me hope and something to strive for.

    I see that you're at the "crit cap" for Frost. Was that by design or were you just going for crit to make it easier to switch to Fire if you felt the need?

  18. #218
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Mûe View Post
    I run. A lot... 3 Ice heads 4tw!
    I had pretty bad targeting from Ice heads on our try, still managed to pull more in a fair bit worse gear (not as Frost though, to be fair).

    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Maybe I do, however - I used to not have that problem. SO obviously patch 5.2 included the 'I suck' debuff, which was obviously not documented.
    So instead of trying to improve yourself you just quit. 'Nuff said, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fennixx View Post
    So Affliction locks, which have better mobility, better AoE, better single target, 2 unique (let me emphasize UNIQUE) utility tools (healthstones and portal), 2 raid buffs (spellpower and stamina), and are much less RNG-ish, are still above.

    And no I won't stop comparing mages to locks and locks to mages. They are both pures. Both ranged. And both casters. And I've been raiding with both since sunwell (and mage since vanilla), so I know what I'm talking about.

    Oh, well...

    Lets wait till ilvl 700 and fire will perform awesome.

    As for adapting. I've been doing it. I play either my lock (first option), my paladin healer (if my raid needs) or my mage (for nostalgia).
    Better single target post-nerf will be debateable. 2K dps difference is nothing and can easily be put down to good/bad RNG on either side. Players will be the ones to make the difference, or tactics. Multi-dotting ofc they will be, and AoE I think everyone knows Fire sucks at. Frost is ok but Fire is shit.

    Did I say you should stop comparing the two? No. Your points there are completely correct.

    Where I disagree, however, is your attitude towards the situation. You (seemingly) want everything to perfect the whole time and if it isn't to your liking even the slightest bit, you cry about it. Nostalgia's a wonderful thing but living in the past does nothing for you.

  19. #219
    Hyos, the point being made isn't for mages in general, it was for arcane specifically. As the spec is designed to stand still and nuke it SHOULD come out on top in a Patchwerk fight. The spec is designed to be ideal without moving.
    Last edited by Balazaar; 2013-03-13 at 02:33 PM.

  20. #220
    High Overlord Bopcommander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcimedes View Post
    Bopcommander... impressive logs, it gives me hope and something to strive for.

    I see that you're at the "crit cap" for Frost. Was that by design or were you just going for crit to make it easier to switch to Fire if you felt the need?
    Thanks. Since I was able to get the "crit cap" I went for it. I'm not sure when I'll be going back to fire. Probably when I get 522 crit piece in every slot, or close to it and 4 piece tier. I feel frost is preforming pretty well (compared to fire/arcane), and since I haven't played it since Vanilla in PVE, I'm currently enjoying it. I've only been frost since Monday.

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