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  1. #1

    Welcome to the back of the bus again.

    Lead Systems Designer Greg Street (Ghostcrawler) wanted to give notice of several class hotfixes that went live last night along with the reasoning behind those changes.

    Hotfixes:

    Mage: Nether Tempest, Living Bomb, Frost Bomb damage +40%.
    We’re happy with the relative power of Arcane, Fire and Frost mages in PvE to each other, but all three specs are below where we want them. We were hoping that once groups got past the first few 5.2 raid encounters that benefit a lot from multi-dotting that we’d see mage DPS climb, but it’s not there yet. We don’t want to change rotations or force players to change specs, so we wanted a relatively passive change.

    We decided to buff the bombs because it affects all three specs relatively similarly and is as close to a passive form of damage as mages have. Had we buffed the cast-time nukes, the risk is that mages would lose even more DPS on high movement or high multi-dot fights, which wasn’t our intent. If these buffs aren’t sufficient, we will happily make more, but we’d rather make a few buffs a few times in a row rather than over buff then have to nerf it back down.

    Warlock: Corruption damage -25%.
    Warlock: Doom damage -25%.
    Priest: Shadow Word: Pain damage -25%.
    We want the dot specs to do well in multi-dot scenarios, but Affliction, Demonology and Shadow were doing too well on multi-dot fights and are still quite competitive on non-multi-dot fights. Balance druids, so far, are where we want them to be.

  2. #2
    Kneejerk changes...all of these.

    Any serious amount of planning has obviously been cast aside for the sake of, "More content, faster."
    Last edited by Spazzeh; 2013-03-12 at 08:16 PM.

  3. #3
    Obviously week 1 normals are the best metric for class balancing.

  4. #4
    Super Moderator Venara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hesp View Post
    Obviously week 1 normals are the best metric for class balancing.
    Obviously you decided to ignore that they are very likely looking at various other sources also. Raiding isn't the only thing you can do in WoW.

    I liked the buff but I have to agree that it was a bit too much for multi-dot situations. Since they wanted to buff sustained DPS with it originally, they should just buff something that we rarely use in multi-dot situations, like Mind Flay.
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Venara View Post
    Obviously you decided to ignore that they are very likely looking at various other sources also. Raiding isn't the only thing you can do in WoW.

    I liked the buff but I have to agree that it was a bit too much for multi-dot situations. Since they wanted to buff sustained DPS with it originally, they should just buff something that we rarely use in multi-dot situations, like Mind Flay.
    I was saying the exact same thing..

    My problem isn't with the nerf... it's the fact they buffed it in the first place, multi target fights was never a problem for shadow priests... where we were subpar was on single target encounters...

    So to fix that they... wtf... they buffed our instant cast dot?

    SWP is too volatile to balance around unless they felt the class was subpar in all areas of dps... SWP affect our dps not only on single and multi target encounters but also affects our dps during movement, unless you're godly lucky with procs you're spamming your SWP bind...

    Should've done a flat increase to mind flay (in addition ton MF:I)... Single target only, not bursty (like DP) and interruptable so it shouldn't negatively affect pvp balance much...

  6. #6
    They kinda ruined the possibilty of buffing mindflay now with Insanity, it will be too powerful in PvP and the #1 choice in PvE. Just revert that shit for priest and give us a plain f****** buff on mind flay, how hard can it be?!
    And I knew the 25% SW:P was too good to be true, but could have fun with it for a week atleast.
    Either way please just read this Blizzd00d of doom and make our single target better without increasing our instaburst in PvP 0k ty

  7. #7
    The problem with buffing mind flay though is that then you bring up issues with MF:I compared to mind bender and FDCL. The problem we're seeing now is there's very few places we can be buffed without causing a backlash when it comes to pigeonholing us into one talent over another or simply causing issues in PvP like when they buffed mind blast. Honestly to me it just seem that they need to look into allowing Shadowy Apparitions to proc off mind flay. I know everyone hates Shadowy Apparitions because the awful ai but as far as it goes it would allow for a decent increase in single target damage without causing problems between talents and burst in PvP.

  8. #8
    I dont have words for idiots from blizzard...

    Priest SINGLE TARGET dps was too low.
    Buff DOT.
    Priest MULTI TARGET dps is to high.
    Nerf dot back.
    Single target? Derp.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Venara View Post
    Obviously you decided to ignore that they are very likely looking at various other sources also. Raiding isn't the only thing you can do in WoW.

    I liked the buff but I have to agree that it was a bit too much for multi-dot situations. Since they wanted to buff sustained DPS with it originally, they should just buff something that we rarely use in multi-dot situations, like Mind Flay.
    Um, what? They explicitly stated these are pve changes, so they are obviously based on this week's normal modes. Unless you're implying they're basing changes on dungeons/questing now, your snarky comment really doesn't make any sense. It's foolish on their part to base such big damage swings on normal modes which is nothing but meter whoring for top parses. Of course cleave/multidot representation is abnormally high in week 1. Decent guilds can afford to have people aim for high parses at the expense of mechanics since they likely won't be doing the normals again. It will be a different story next week, and without that data any significant buffs/nerfs are hasty.

    This has nothing to do with whether the SW:P buff was warranted or not in the first place, because now we're even worse off than before they buffed it. Even worse, no compensation was offered for single target. So, in the end we're looking at a 6.25% nerf to the original non-buffed SW:P. We certainly weren't good at single target before, so now we've just got to hope they come to their senses when heroic mode data comes in. It's a shame since ptr testing/instance order points to the multi-dot fights being pretty easy, while fights like Iron Qon and Durumu will be the tough checks.

  10. #10
    Scarab Lord Granyala's Avatar
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    Is this seat taken? No? K thanks.

    *sits down*

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  11. #11
    Proud to be keeping the bench warm for yet another tier. Least we got experience. It's a tough job.

  12. #12
    I know what people are saying that SWP is worse off now then before the initial buff, but isn't shadow benefitting from a buff to all shadow damage via the Shadowform ability? I'll be honest, haven't followed the PTR changes as closely as I should have done, so may have missed something.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyno View Post
    The problem with buffing mind flay though is that then you bring up issues with MF:I compared to mind bender and FDCL. The problem we're seeing now is there's very few places we can be buffed without causing a backlash when it comes to pigeonholing us into one talent over another or simply causing issues in PvP like when they buffed mind blast. Honestly to me it just seem that they need to look into allowing Shadowy Apparitions to proc off mind flay. I know everyone hates Shadowy Apparitions because the awful ai but as far as it goes it would allow for a decent increase in single target damage without causing problems between talents and burst in PvP.
    What about Vampiric Touch? No one ever really applies it to more than 2 maybe 3 targets max since it has a cast time, would be a wonderful spell to buff for sustained PVE damage. That in addition to FIXING FD:CL and not just ignoring it like they've been doing...

  14. #14
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hoddie View Post
    I know what people are saying that SWP is worse off now then before the initial buff, but isn't shadow benefitting from a buff to all shadow damage via the Shadowform ability? I'll be honest, haven't followed the PTR changes as closely as I should have done, so may have missed something.
    Yes.

    1 (base shadow word: pain damage) * 1.25 (25% sw: Pain buff) * 1.0417 (Shadowform buff, 1.25/1.20) = 1.3021

    So, 5.2 buffed Shadow Word: Pain by 30.21% from the damage it did in 5.0/5.1.

    This hotfix did this:

    1.3021 * 0.75 (-25% shadow word: pain nerf) = 0.9766

    So after this nerf, despite the 5% Shadowform buff, Shadow Word: Pain now does 97.66% of the damage it did in 5.0/5.1. To phrase it another way, it lost -25% compared to Live, and lost -2.34% compared to 5.0/5.1.

    It's a massive nerf compared to live, a small nerf compared to 5.0/5.1 - but the reason people are annoyed by this is that we were meant to be getting buffed this patch, not small-nerfed.

    As sad as it is, I can't even bring myself to look at it, because a couple lines up - they buffed all mage bombs by +40% O.O

    Mages are still the top DPS specs in PvE, Frost is bizarrely the top single target spec in the game right now in PvE. A 40% buff to their biggest burst ability means I probably can't even zone into bgs/arenas/rbgs this season, which is depressing - I was actually thinking things might get better on the PvP front.

    For those curious on current PvE Patchwerk standings (pre-mage buffs and spriest nerfs):

    http://simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T14H.html

    After the Shadow Word: Pain nerf, my napkin math says we're easily last place again (@ 117,058 DPS).
    Last edited by Yvaelle; 2013-03-12 at 09:47 PM.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Yes.

    1 (base shadow word: pain damage) * 1.25 (25% sw: Pain buff) * 1.0417 (Shadowform buff, 1.25/1.20) = 1.3021

    So, 5.2 buffed Shadow Word: Pain by 30.21% from the damage it did in 5.0/5.1.

    This hotfix did this:

    1.3021 * 0.75 (-25% shadow word: pain nerf) = 0.9766

    So after this nerf, despite the 5% Shadowform buff, Shadow Word: Pain now does 97.66% of the damage it did in 5.0/5.1. To phrase it another way, it lost -25% compared to Live, and lost -2.34% compared to 5.0/5.1.

    It's a massive nerf compared to live, a small nerf compared to 5.0/5.1 - but the reason people are annoyed by this is that we were meant to be getting buffed this patch, not small-nerfed.

    As sad as it is, I can't even bring myself to look at it, because a couple lines up - they buffed all mage bombs by +40% O.O

    Mages are still the top DPS specs in PvE, Frost is bizarrely the top single target spec in the game right now in PvE. A 40% buff to their biggest burst ability means I probably can't even zone into bgs/arenas/rbgs this season, which is depressing - I was actually thinking things might get better on the PvP front.

    For those curious on current PvE Patchwerk standings (pre-mage buffs and spriest nerfs):

    http://simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T14H.html

    After the Shadow Word: Pain nerf, my napkin math says we're easily last place again (@ 117,058 DPS).
    Soooo annoyed....there was a reason just 1 week ago they threw in the 25% buff, they knew we needed better single target PVE sustained damage. This is so infuriating, especially after just one week of NORMALS, a single f'ing locout.

  16. #16
    I'm not sure if it would help but do you think if mindflay applied a stacking debuff similar to how frostbolt works? or have the debuff apply when you cast mindblast on the single target mob? just trying to think of a good way to apply better single target damage with out improving our multi dot damage.

  17. #17
    The Patient Aica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Yes.

    1 (base shadow word: pain damage) * 1.25 (25% sw: Pain buff) * 1.0417 (Shadowform buff, 1.25/1.20) = 1.3021

    So, 5.2 buffed Shadow Word: Pain by 30.21% from the damage it did in 5.0/5.1.

    This hotfix did this:

    1.3021 * 0.75 (-25% shadow word: pain nerf) = 0.9766

    So after this nerf, despite the 5% Shadowform buff, Shadow Word: Pain now does 97.66% of the damage it did in 5.0/5.1. To phrase it another way, it lost -25% compared to Live, and lost -2.34% compared to 5.0/5.1.

    It's a massive nerf compared to live, a small nerf compared to 5.0/5.1 - but the reason people are annoyed by this is that we were meant to be getting buffed this patch, not small-nerfed.

    As sad as it is, I can't even bring myself to look at it, because a couple lines up - they buffed all mage bombs by +40% O.O

    Mages are still the top DPS specs in PvE, Frost is bizarrely the top single target spec in the game right now in PvE. A 40% buff to their biggest burst ability means I probably can't even zone into bgs/arenas/rbgs this season, which is depressing - I was actually thinking things might get better on the PvP front.

    For those curious on current PvE Patchwerk standings (pre-mage buffs and spriest nerfs):

    http://simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T14H.html

    After the Shadow Word: Pain nerf, my napkin math says we're easily last place again (@ 117,058 DPS).
    If you actually test it, you'll see that the nerf wasn't actually -25%. It was just a revert to put it where it was before the hotfix.
    {[( )]}

  18. #18
    In all fairness, I can't say I wasn't expecting this...

    They need to change a lot more in order to get us balance.
    Get rid of the Christmas-tree-of-whack-a-skill. Give back Cata rotation where DP is an actual dot and benefits from mastery like it should. Bleeding resource crap is doing my head in.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by blgns View Post
    I dont have words for idiots from blizzard...

    Priest SINGLE TARGET dps was too low.
    Buff DOT.
    Priest MULTI TARGET dps is to high.
    Nerf dot back.
    Single target? Derp.
    its the World of Warcraft we live in. More changes will come in the next few days along with the new data.

  20. #20
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aica View Post
    If you actually test it, you'll see that the nerf wasn't actually -25%. It was just a revert to put it where it was before the hotfix.
    Good to know!

    That means the -2.34% nerf compared to 5.0/5.1 isn't accurate, it's the same as 5.2 before the 25% hot-buff (0% change).

    It doesn't seem to have a big impact on my estimate of our new single target DPS though, which is now:

    117,351 DPS, still the lowest. 2k below Rets, 15k below Frost (top-end, pre-buff) - after the mage-bomb buff the spread will be even worse than 15k :/
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