Windwalker is now dead last in DPS.

[Falsers]

This will also misrepresent data, as due to the much lower amount of ppl playing monks, the skill variation on the top 50 monks will be much bigger than the skill variation of the top 50 of an older class.

I don't disagree that the variation will be bigger, but I think that's only relevant if the argument point surrounds things like "average DPS" or "most players". I think, especially in the monk community, the "most players argument" isn't so useful because of that variation that you're talking about. Instead, when discussing where a class pans out compared to other classes, we should look at the class' capabilities when played correctly. Looking at those top 50 monks, including many that aren't using RoR, shows you that in many cases competitive performance is possible. Saying that a class is weak simply because most people don't play it correctly isn't good grounds to have buffs handed out. Again, I'll reiterate an earlier point. If there's room for a player to improve their DPS with better gameplay, correct itemization, or any other means that fall in their hands, they should do so. If they aren't doing so, and as such not getting the numbers they want to see, then in my opinion that player is almost solely responsible for the issues they have. It is only when a player can't be competitive despite great gameplay and proper preparation that there is a problem, and I do not believe that WoL supports the argument that that is the case.

Now, that's not to say that I'll be upset if monks do get a buff. I disagree that we need one, but I'll greedily celebrate any and all incentives given to continue enjoying the class I play.

tl;dr If the top 50 can do it, so can others.

[Fichek]

I don't disagree that the variation will be bigger, but I think that's only relevant if the argument point surrounds things like "average DPS" or "most players". I think, especially in the monk community, the "most players argument" isn't so useful because of that variation that you're talking about. Instead, when discussing where a class pans out compared to other classes, we should look at the class' capabilities when played correctly. Looking at those top 50 monks, including many that aren't using RoR, shows you that in many cases competitive performance is possible. Saying that a class is weak simply because most people don't play it correctly isn't good grounds to have buffs handed out. Again, I'll reiterate an earlier point. If there's room for a player to improve their DPS with better gameplay, correct itemization, or any other means that fall in their hands, they should do so. If they aren't doing so, and as such not getting the numbers they want to see, then in my opinion that player is almost solely responsible for the issues they have. It is only when a player can't be competitive despite great gameplay and proper preparation that there is a problem, and I do not believe that WoL supports the argument that that is the case.

Now, that's not to say that I'll be upset if monks do get a buff. I disagree that we need one, but I'll greedily celebrate any and all incentives given to continue enjoying the class I play.

tl;dr If the top 50 can do it, so can others.

I think you are fairly subjective on the matter. I think everything written here, and in your previous posts, you base on your performance in your own guild. I've looked at the logs and your are middish mostly, sometimes bit higher, sometimes lower, but all in all, you are doing fine. In your own guild, mind you. I mean, i could be wrong in my assumption but you have provided no evidence for your claims so i'm inclined to think that you are basing most of it on your own performance.

Now, let's examine your posts a bit. When someone mentioned the number of monks in top300 25hc you said that his method of looking at the representation of WW in it is flawed. And you would be completely correct if we were 3months down the line with thousands upon thousands of logs where top300 means nothing. But at the current state of the game, where only a handful of guilds have killed those bosses, 300 is a lot. Especially considering how wide a dps margin is between #1 and #300.

And the fact that WW is an underplayed spec should also tell you a lot by itself. People tend to flock to a FOTM class or spec but will stick to their preferred character if it's worth sticking to. There is a reason people are shifting from WW to other specs when they want to do competitive dps. If you switch from WW to something else and end up doing similar dps with less gear, practice and effort, that should tell you something. Either WW is underpowered or it's simply too hard to play. Don't forget, you said it yourself, we are talking about top of the line players here, not your average wow joe. And if they can't master a spec, who can? Is it even possible to master? If so, is it worth mastering? As a WW you, more or less, bring nothing to the raid so you need to try much more to reach competitive dps compared to other specs who accomplish the same with far less effort and on top of it bring additional raid utility. If you can't see something wrong with that picture, i have nothing further to say.

The other thing you were talking about is itemization and how it's every WW's responsibility to do their best to itemize properly. That goes without saying, and it's a general rule applied to every class. But when your entire spec, it's gameplay, itemization and viability is based on one item, wouldn't you consider that a bit silly. The normal way would be the way of the other classes. Most of them scale linearly with gear, progressing at a steady rate as they gain more gear. But when WW is concerned, we spike insanely with weapon dmg and the culprit of all the issues, RoR. Extremely bad balancing, nothing more and nothing less. The issue is furthered by the fact that RoR also neutralizes some of the rng inherent to the viability of WW. Consider how our usage of TeB depends exclusively upon lining up as much procs as possible.. With RoR we know that we will use TeB at the end of the buff, no thinking or waiting involved. And we are certain TeB won't be wasted that way, even without other trinket proc, or dancing steel or whatever else you might have. And that makes RoR even more mandatory. It's just an insane item for WW monk, far above anything you might get in the next tiers as well.

And that leads us to the last point which is a paradox in itself. Considering how steep dps curve is between a monk with a great weapon and RoR and the one without both of those, we will soon get nerfed. Mind my words

[Falsers]

I think you are fairly subjective on the matter. I think everything written here, and in your previous posts, you base on your performance in your own guild. I've looked at the logs and your are middish mostly, sometimes bit higher, sometimes lower, but all in all, you are doing fine. In your own guild, mind you. I mean, i could be wrong in my assumption but you have provided no evidence for your claims so i'm inclined to think that you are basing most of it on your own performance.

Now, let's examine your posts a bit. When someone mentioned the number of monks in top300 25hc you said that his method of looking at the representation of WW in it is flawed. And you would be completely correct if we were 3months down the line with thousands upon thousands of logs where top300 means nothing. But at the current state of the game, where only a handful of guilds have killed those bosses, 300 is a lot. Especially considering how wide a dps margin is between #1 and #300.

And the fact that WW is an underplayed spec should also tell you a lot by itself. People tend to flock to a FOTM class or spec but will stick to their preferred character if it's worth sticking to. There is a reason people are shifting from WW to other specs when they want to do competitive dps. If you switch from WW to something else and end up doing similar dps with less gear, practice and effort, that should tell you something. Either WW is underpowered or it's simply too hard to play. Don't forget, you said it yourself, we are talking about top of the line players here, not your average wow joe. And if they can't master a spec, who can? Is it even possible to master? If so, is it worth mastering? As a WW you, more or less, bring nothing to the raid so you need to try much more to reach competitive dps compared to other specs who accomplish the same with far less effort and on top of it bring additional raid utility. If you can't see something wrong with that picture, i have nothing further to say.

The other thing you were talking about is itemization and how it's every WW's responsibility to do their best to itemize properly. That goes without saying, and it's a general rule applied to every class. But when your entire spec, it's gameplay, itemization and viability is based on one item, wouldn't you consider that a bit silly. The normal way would be the way of the other classes. Most of them scale linearly with gear, progressing at a steady rate as they gain more gear. But when WW is concerned, we spike insanely with weapon dmg and the culprit of all the issues, RoR. Extremely bad balancing, nothing more and nothing less. The issue is furthered by the fact that RoR also neutralizes some of the rng inherent to the viability of WW. Consider how our usage of TeB depends exclusively upon lining up as much procs as possible.. With RoR we know that we will use TeB at the end of the buff, no thinking or waiting involved. And we are certain TeB won't be wasted that way, even without other trinket proc, or dancing steel or whatever else you might have. And that makes RoR even more mandatory. It's just an insane item for WW monk, far above anything you might get in the next tiers as well.

And that leads us to the last point which is a paradox in itself. Considering how steep dps curve is between a monk with a great weapon and RoR and the one without both of those, we will soon get nerfed. Mind my words

Most of your assumptions surrounding my motivations are wrong, but I'm going to indulge you regardless and pose a simple question to you with that mindset. If I'm capable of doing it (a "middish" player as you put it) without RoR, why aren't other players? Again, this thread isn't really about whether or not people like the class design, it's about whether or not the class is competitive or not. A side note, since you chose to contextualize with "you're doing fine" with "in your own guild". I'm quite proud of the people I raid with, and they frequently rank in the top 10 of their own class/spec, so I'm inclined to believe that any implication that monks wouldn't be competitive in "better guilds" is just sillyness.

[Exorte]

False. Roughly half the fights Brewmaster is the best tank dps, the other half is blood tank usually for 10 mans.

What?
I said Monk tank have OP damage. Isn't that the same thing?

[Callimonk]

Most of your assumptions surrounding my motivations are wrong, but I'm going to indulge you regardless and pose a simple question to you with that mindset. If I'm capable of doing it (a "middish" player as you put it) without RoR, why aren't other players? Again, this thread isn't really about whether or not people like the class design, it's about whether or not the class is competitive or not. A side note, since you chose to contextualize with "you're doing fine" with "in your own guild". I'm quite proud of the people I raid with, and they frequently rank in the top 10 of their own class/spec, so I'm inclined to believe that any implication that monks wouldn't be competitive in "better guilds" is just sillyness.

What he means is that he went through your logs, and even though you are ranking very well, you're still appearing toward the middle-bottom of the meter vs. at the top. Which, well, that's completely fight dependent. Obviously, I'm not siding with or against him - it is what it is. I'm sure there are some fights where you're at the top and some where you aren't; that's just the nature of any class, and I'm not about to take the time to verify or add to it - considering that where YOU stand isn't necessarily what this thread is about, but where the class stands.


----------

Anyway, and this gets into a different beast altogether, it still depends on gear to some extent. Our combat rogue is the most geared DPS in our raid (at ilevel 522) and is consistently at or near the top of the meter. He certainly wasn't prior to his 4set and such. Plus, you have to take RNG into account. Myself - I typically average around 150-160K sustained (again, fight dependent) when I get decent enough procs. However, that can go up or down - tunneling a boss in a Patchwerk situation and getting procs the moment I have 10 stacks of TeB + some other agi proc, and I've seen myself maintain 200K (very, very lucky moment.)

So, I think I'll say that it's unfortunate we're pretty gear dependent, but on the other hand - what class isn't reliant on trinkets/weapons, and (to some extent) their 4set? It's pretty ridiculous how much damage RoRO gives us, and our fourset in combination with that, so I'll agree there at least.

[Falsers]

What he means is that he went through your logs, and even though you are ranking very well, you're still appearing toward the middle-bottom of the meter vs. at the top. Which, well, that's completely fight dependent. Obviously, I'm not siding with or against him - it is what it is. I'm sure there are some fights where you're at the top and some where you aren't; that's just the nature of any class, and I'm not about to take the time to verify or add to it - considering that where YOU stand isn't necessarily what this thread is about, but where the class stands.

Fair point, my mistake. So, I'll rephrase my question. If I (and many other monks) can be towards the middle of the meter when raid members are throwing up top 10 class parses, then that lends evidence that WW's aren't last by default due to Blizzard's balancing. Again, you don't need to be first to be competitive.

Also, yes Alys, Rogues are insane right now. I think we're going to see, or what we should be seeing if people are holding up their end of Blizzard's bargain and playing/itemizing correctly, is a middle-of-the-line DPS class (WW's) move towards the top as they get things like RoR and 4pc.

I don't think that what a lot of people are doing, that is being upset and saying "Oh we're last!", is specific to the monk community, just to be clear. For whatever reason, the DPS classes in the middle of the pack seem to over-react and think they're last, simply because 2-3 classes are exceptionally good in any given tier.