Should the UK return the Parthenon Marbles to Greece?

[yetgdhfgh]

Comparing Greece and Syria is laughable.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...e-belfast-bomb

I would be more worried about a bomb blowing up in the UK than in Greece.


I guess it would suck to be country with stolen artifacts. Our museums would remain full however.

Which country is that by the way
im curious where you come from

[Stelio Kontos]

So this is only about giving stuff back that still is in the hands of its current "caretakers"? I was thinking estimate the plunder Greeks stole, give it a material value in current currencies, add 2300 years of interest and then pay back?

Otherwise it sounds more like a punishment not for stealing but for taking care of it afterwards, which doesn't sound too fair to me.

Not relevant to this thread though, since we're discussing a specific set of marbles, and not some hypothetical valuation of all the artifacts one country may have taken from another. And a thief can also take care of what he stole, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Besides, considering the destruction and artifact taking between, say Persia and Greece, began with the Persian invasions of Greece, and not vice versa, that might not be an issue Iran would want to start on the road to.

[Deleted]

Besides, considering the destruction and artifact taking between, say Persia and Greece, began with the Persian invasions of Greece, and not vice versa, that might not be an issue Iran would want to start on the road to.

Alexander plundered Egypt, Palestine, parts of India. All righteous self-defense?

[Deleted]

I don't understand why it's so important to "reclaim" something that doesn't belong to you.

It doesn't belong to the modern Brits and it doesn't belong to the modern Greeks.

Do the Egyptians want the Rosetta stone back, or all of their artifacts that the Brits have? Do the South Americas want their items? Central Africans?

The Natural History museums have dinosaur remains found from all parts of the globe, are they all of a sudden the property of the peoples of today?

[Activi-T]

Not relevant to this thread though, since we're discussing a specific set of marbles, and not some hypothetical valuation of all the artifacts one country may have taken from another. And a thief can also take care of what he stole, the two are not mutually exclusive.

While the action may have been morally grey (by today's standards) accusing us of theft is a bit rich. They were paid for. They were paid to the rulers of Greece at the time, the Ottomans. Now we could argue how terrible the Ottoman occupation of Greece was and how terrible it was for the British to be doing deals with them but to accuse us of theft is ridiculous, we didn't steal anything, we paid for them.

[Jeleh]

From what I have read it sounds as though Lord Elgin did indeed steal them.

Whilst I would not refute the Greeks ownership of them, I would argue against sending them back. What purpose will it serve? It is a much better advertisement to their culture and will more likely inspire thousands of tourists to go and visit Greece first hand. Just the pictures alone look amazing, so much so that I decided I am going to to to the museum myself next weekend and have a look first hand.

I just don't see what returning them would achieve. I would ask that Britain acknowledge the marbles as property of the nation of Greece and set up an agreement of some kind where they can stay in the British museum in London.

[Stelio Kontos]

Alexander plundered Egypt, Palestine, parts of India. All righteous self-defense?

And my point still stands, if there are artifacts in Greek museums taken during the expedition east, they should be returned.

But the lark you're on is beyond silly. If you want Greece to pay interest n artifacts, then most of Europe will have to pay similar amounts to Greece, and Iran will have to turn around and take the money it gets from Greece and give it to all the nations it subjugated in that period, like Iraq, Egypt, etc.. It's really silly to try and play the game of monetary compensation when the issue being discussed is simple; the direct return of plundered artifacts.

[Cybran]

Which country is that by the way
im curious where you come from

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...garia-science/

A country that the European tomb raiders passed by as unimportant. When in fact there is so much gold and history under the surface.

[Stelio Kontos]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...garia-science/

A country that the European tomb raiders passed by as unimportant. When in fact there is so much gold and history under the surface.

I envy Bulgaria in that regard. Many of those tomb-raiders decided to head south.

[yetgdhfgh]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...garia-science/

A country that the European tomb raiders passed by as unimportant. When in fact there is so much gold and history under the surface.

Bulgaria you say

well if you could can you please tell your fellow countrymen not to come to the UK when you guys become members of the EU

Britain is full!

dont believe this story for a second http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...off-in-UK.html

But thats another topic for another time

Infracted: Please refrain from posting off topic.

[Stelio Kontos]

Bulgaria you say

well if you could can you please tell your fellow countrymen not to come to the UK when you guys become members of the EU

Britain is full!

dont believe this story for a second http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...off-in-UK.html

But thats another topic for another time

What a petty cheap shot. Completely uncalled for.

And it has nothing to do with the topic.

[Deleted]

Im not sure here, but wasnt that building build befor greece exsited as greece?

This is a hard case IMO, if the greek goverment was using the marble to restore the building in its original glorie, with asmuch original marble as possible. I'd say yes, it needs to be returned. But if its just for the sake of returning it so it can be displayed over there, then no. Its in a museum now aswell and there are plenty of other marble shit to put in the museums in greece.

As is noted befor, there is unrest in greece. So giving it back now would not be an option either way. Yea i've seen your reply on it, and im not convinced! I believe that all old buildings and works of art are a heritage of the world and all the people in it. Not per se just the country it was origonaly build in.

[Gavll]

As long as they pay market value for it....oh wait, they have no money

[Stelio Kontos]

As long as they pay market value for it....oh wait, they have no money

Shouldn't have to pay for what was taken without permission.

[Marthenil]

Im not sure here, but wasnt that building build befor greece exsited as greece?

This is a hard case IMO, if the greek goverment was using the marble to restore the building in its original glorie, with asmuch original marble as possible. I'd say yes, it needs to be returned. But if its just for the sake of returning it so it can be displayed over there, then no. Its in a museum now aswell and there are plenty of other marble shit to put in the museums in greece.

As is noted befor, there is unrest in greece. So giving it back now would not be an option either way. Yea i've seen your reply on it, and im not convinced! I believe that all old buildings and works of art are a heritage of the world and all the people in it. Not per se just the country it was origonaly build in.

Yeah because unrest has everything to do with stolen marbles....oh wait.

As long as they pay market value for it....oh wait, they have no money

Because we have to pay for things that were stolen...oh wait.

[Activi-T]

Shouldn't have to pay for what was taken without permission.

They had permission from the Ottomans, the empire that owned Greece at the time.

[Cybran]

Bulgaria you say well if you could can you please tell your fellow countrymen not to come to the UK when you guys become members of the EU

Britain is full!

First of all we have been members since 2007.

Second:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...y-Britain.html

Many of the 53,000 Bulgarians who received permits to work in Britain since 2007 were doctors, entrepreneurs and accountants who had "added to the intellectual capacity of your workforce", he said.
Others were nurses, day care staff and fruit-pickers who "filled niches that are obviously not acceptable or attractive to UK nationals".

Can you tell your fellow Britons that they should make up their minds. You steal our doctors and young people, but you refuse to take our poor people and low lifes? This really isn't fair, don't you think? Not taking in the welfare leeches is discrimination and against the EU laws.

[Stelio Kontos]

They had permission from the Ottomans, the empire that owned Greece at the time.

Really? because the document supposedly giving Lord Elgin permission to plunder the Parthenon doesn't seem able to be found, and some claim the original document only gives him a right to make drawings and etchings, not to rip the thing out and take it across Europe.

If that's the case it's pretty convenient the Ottoman document doesn't seem to exist showing permission to plunder.

[Skroe]

No. They were given or sold by the legitimate ruling power at the time.

There is no "take backs" just because governments change.

Hence the US's $1 annual rent for Guantanamo Bay.

[Deleted]

Yeah because unrest has everything to do with stolen marbles....oh wait.


Because we have to pay for things that were stolen...oh wait.

Sigh, ok ill explain it for you....
When there is unrest of anny sort in a country history has shown that it is not unlikly that things as musea and old buildings arnt safe. Just a month or so ago allot of scripts where rescued from public uprising. They where just in time as a week later the whole thing burned down. Now im not saying that this will be the case in greece, but it is in the realm of the possebilitys. So why risk it.

Things that where sold arnt stolen, they where sold. That the current administration doesnt like this and call's it stolen is a whole other thing.