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  1. #21
    Mechagnome Cai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryethe View Post
    It's good. The only worse normal mode trinket is Talisman of Bloodlist. For normal mode Renataki > Juju > Shado Pan > ToB. It seems ~= LFR Juju/Renataki.
    Source: http://dread-gaming.com/simc/enh_trinkets_t15h.html.
    Hmm since I posted I checked Mr Robot, and it had it as 2nd BiS with the Haste build. It has Renataki > Shado Pan > Juju > ToB.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Cai View Post
    Hmm since I posted I checked Mr Robot, and it had it as 2nd BiS with the Haste build. It has Renataki > Shado Pan > Juju > ToB.
    Ask Mr robot isn't that great at estimating trinkets as it works mostly on ep values. Sims are much better at deriving the value of procs and other non static effects

  3. #23
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We actually have a pretty extensive way to measure trinkets, including a ton of trinket simulations. Here's some in-depth details about how we calculate our trinkets. We also have a list of the average amount of stat you get from procs for each trinket (on a per-class basis). This already has haste and the new RPPM proc mechanics factored in.

    The rough average amount of Agility you get over the duration of a fight from each of the following trinkets:
    Renetaki: 2017 Agility
    Bad Juju: 2085 Agility
    Shado-Pan: 1852 Agility

    Then of course you have to factor in the static stat you get from it to decide how it ranks for you, or if it's BiS in general. Keep in mind that in our gear lists we have 2 ranking options: absolute and relative. Absolute looks at the total score of the item and takes nothing else into account (like hit caps). This is best used to find out how good a trinket actually is. Relative ranking looks at the rest of your gear and assumes that the slot you are looking at is the only thing changing. So if you're already hit cap, a trinket with a lot of hit on it might not be very good. Then again, it might still be good if you can reforge out of hit on other items. Mr. Robot takes all reforging/gems/etc into account when ranking the lists. Here's more information on absolute vs relative.

    Alright, now that all of the hard-core info is out of the way! I wanted to stop by to also find out what people think of all of the trinkets and get a sanity check. Sometimes a trinket might look good, but doesn't line up with cooldowns well. I want to make sure find that info and add it into our calculations. So if you disagree with any of our stuff, please let me know so we can dig into it
    Optimize your gear on AskMrRobot.com
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  4. #24
    You left out blood lust talisman though D=


  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoopercat View Post
    Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. We actually have a pretty extensive way to measure trinkets, including a ton of trinket simulations. Here's some in-depth details about how we calculate our trinkets. We also have a list of the average amount of stat you get from procs for each trinket (on a per-class basis). This already has haste and the new RPPM proc mechanics factored in.

    The rough average amount of Agility you get over the duration of a fight from each of the following trinkets:
    Renetaki: 2017 Agility
    Bad Juju: 2085 Agility
    Shado-Pan: 1852 Agility

    Then of course you have to factor in the static stat you get from it to decide how it ranks for you, or if it's BiS in general. Keep in mind that in our gear lists we have 2 ranking options: absolute and relative. Absolute looks at the total score of the item and takes nothing else into account (like hit caps). This is best used to find out how good a trinket actually is. Relative ranking looks at the rest of your gear and assumes that the slot you are looking at is the only thing changing. So if you're already hit cap, a trinket with a lot of hit on it might not be very good. Then again, it might still be good if you can reforge out of hit on other items. Mr. Robot takes all reforging/gems/etc into account when ranking the lists. Here's more information on absolute vs relative.

    Alright, now that all of the hard-core info is out of the way! I wanted to stop by to also find out what people think of all of the trinkets and get a sanity check. Sometimes a trinket might look good, but doesn't line up with cooldowns well. I want to make sure find that info and add it into our calculations. So if you disagree with any of our stuff, please let me know so we can dig into it
    Thanks Zooper. Askmrrobot has come a really long way. I remember when you first released it back in Wrath

    That said my comment was spurred by the fact that the tool is currently showing Rune of Reoginination for me as the highest relative upgrade, but when I choose it, optomize, and then plug it into simcraft I get a 6k dps downgrade when askmrrobot was reporting I should be getting a 6k upgrade. The absolute seems to be ok though. Is it possible the relative ranking is not accounting for reforging out of the hit/exp on my current trinkets?

  6. #26
    I've been using AMR, so far, this xpac, in addition to SimC, and AMR has been giving me good info (read: works out very well, in-game).

    I'd really love to know WHY AMR doesn't allow for talent options, though. The only PVE option I have, is an EM+PE combo. I'd love to be able to choose my talents, just as AMR allows you to choose and save gear, gem, & enchantment choices.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    I've been using AMR, so far, this xpac, in addition to SimC, and AMR has been giving me good info (read: works out very well, in-game).

    I'd really love to know WHY AMR doesn't allow for talent options, though. The only PVE option I have, is an EM+PE combo. I'd love to be able to choose my talents, just as AMR allows you to choose and save gear, gem, & enchantment choices.
    I agree that it has been very accurate up until now but this is the first time I'm starting to see a major discrepancy between the two. A 12k DPS difference between simc and AMR on a trinket is not tiny and someone has to be wrong. I know Purge has done some testing to verify that the proc rates / formula is matching in game fwiw.

  8. #28
    Simc has had problems with trinkets before no?

  9. #29
    Ryethe, one of the first questions I have, is how you're setting SimC (i.e. patchwerk vs. light movement, etc.), versus what assumptions AMR makes, in regard to boss contact.

    With the recent hotfix to RPPM, where they added the increasing chance to proc, as a function of time, I can see where it would be easy to see discrepancies.

    I have to wonder if AMR hasn't made a mistake, based on a tweet from GC:

    - AMR atates the following:
    NOTE! Other trinket procs are not taken into account, so you don’t have to worry about a haste proc from the Talisman of Bloodlust accidentally activating a Haste (instead of Crit) proc for the Rune of Re-Origination (source).
    If you click on the link, GC says that the rune does take temp effects into account. I may be missing something, but it appears that a temp proc from another trinket could trigger the rune to proc, say, mastery or crit, instead of haste. If so, then if SimC is modeling this way, and AMR is modeling that another trinket's temp effects don't affect rune's proc, then I can see AMR's sim resulting in higher dps.



    Also, if, say, you set SimC to a light movement style fight, and AMR assumes 100% boss contact, then I can see AMR modeling higher dps. As this is a separate point, have you, by chance, removed any trinkets, and re-run the sim(s), to see if there is still a 12k dps difference? In other words, are you certain that you can attribute the 12k difference to trinket choice, as opposed to the choice of simulator?

  10. #30
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    Why is Tailisman of Bloodlust considered low if haste is becoming so big for us?
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  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeonde View Post
    Why is Tailisman of Bloodlust considered low if haste is becoming so big for us?
    Because agility > haste at a 1:1 ratio, which is close to what the trinkets are itemized at right now.

    http://dread-gaming.com/simc/enh_trinkets_t15h.html

    From that, you can see that the 535 talisman of bloodlust has (on average) 1.8431 stacks up, which means the trinket is worth 1657 agility + an average of 3199.6216 haste rating. Compare that to 535 bad juju, which is worth 1657 mastery + an average of 2787.5393 agility. Yes, talisman will improve the uptime on your other rppm trinket, so the gap is smaller than it appears in the above list (single trinket sims), but the agi proc trinkets will still hold the lead even after accounting for that.

    Not only that, but the agi proc trinkets have larger procs (talisman gives many small procs), so talisman doesn't contribute to the opening burst as much as juju/renataki. If the opening burst is not important, then the trinkets will be closer in value still.
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2013-03-22 at 08:53 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    Ryethe, one of the first questions I have, is how you're setting SimC (i.e. patchwerk vs. light movement, etc.), versus what assumptions AMR makes, in regard to boss contact.

    With the recent hotfix to RPPM, where they added the increasing chance to proc, as a function of time, I can see where it would be easy to see discrepancies.

    I have to wonder if AMR hasn't made a mistake, based on a tweet from GC:

    - AMR atates the following:


    If you click on the link, GC says that the rune does take temp effects into account. I may be missing something, but it appears that a temp proc from another trinket could trigger the rune to proc, say, mastery or crit, instead of haste. If so, then if SimC is modeling this way, and AMR is modeling that another trinket's temp effects don't affect rune's proc, then I can see AMR's sim resulting in higher dps.

    Also, if, say, you set SimC to a light movement style fight, and AMR assumes 100% boss contact, then I can see AMR modeling higher dps. As this is a separate point, have you, by chance, removed any trinkets, and re-run the sim(s), to see if there is still a 12k dps difference? In other words, are you certain that you can attribute the 12k difference to trinket choice, as opposed to the choice of simulator?
    Both of my trinkets proc agi so regardless of which one I switched out, it would not have an impact on RoO regardless of if either system it modeled temp effects or not (I have no sources of temp haste/crit/mastery).

    Simc is set to patchwerk.

    The process was as follows:
    1) Sim toon
    2) Put on RoO
    3) Resim toon
    4) compare results

    Results in in 3 were 6000 dps less than 1. AMR reported it should have been a 6000 dps upgrade. These results are corroborated by Purge's results Nitwit posted.

    It's worth noting that AMR's BIS list matches SimC's simmed BIS list, just that whenever I tick on relative scoring I tend to get wild fluctuations that don't match SimC. The absolute scoring I'm more comfortable with but unfortunately the advanced tools only work with relative scoring.

  13. #33
    How do you calculate 1.8431 stacks up, on average?

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Embermoon View Post
    How do you calculate 1.8431 stacks up, on average?
    When looking at the 535 talisman of bloodlust profile results, go under buffs and expand the dropdown menu labeled "talisman_of_bloodlust." This will show you the uptime on each individual stack count.

    (1*0.257) + (2*0.157) + (3*0.0991) + (4*0.0652) + (5*0.1428) = 1.8431 average stacks up

  15. #35
    The Patient Xeonde's Avatar
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    Nitwit, I guess my major concern about Renataki is that that insane amount of Expertise will put me way over the cap. Sure I could reforge out of it, but our Windwalker monk is struggling with this right now with tons of stat points wasted on being like 9% hit cap and no way to lower it.
    Roboctopus of BIG SUSHI - Area 52
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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Xeonde View Post
    Nitwit, I guess my major concern about Renataki is that that insane amount of Expertise will put me way over the cap. Sure I could reforge out of it, but our Windwalker monk is struggling with this right now with tons of stat points wasted on being like 9% hit cap and no way to lower it.
    This problem should go away for the most part when you have better access to gear of your chosing from T15. There are multiple items per slot this tier, so we're able to avoid expertise items in a lot of cases (SimC's BiS profile is only 17 expertise rating over the cap). While you're still gearing up that may be more difficult, so renataki's value may be lower for you during this period, depending on how much expertise rating you have on your gear.

    @ Rune of Reorigination discussion, a couple of points:

    1. I don't know how AMR values trinkets. If it's based on the average value of the proc (using the above sims, for example: +4754.866 haste, -1191.4612 crit, -1185.9718 mastery for 535 rune), then that will over-represent the trinket, because when you actually have the extra haste rating is during a period of zero mastery/crit from gear ( => reduces the value of the haste rating received).

    2. The SimC default profiles aren't optimized around Rune of Reorigination's proc. In order to maximize the proc, you'll want a total of x of stat A, x of stat B, and x+1 of stat C, where stat C is whichever stat you receive the most benefit from in large quantities or is hurt the least by the loss of stats A and B while the proc is active. This runs contrary to the maximization of other rppm effects, so it's probably not worth pursuing for BiS.

    Still, you might be able to get decent performance out of rune if it is your only rppm trinket and you play around with your reforging enough. It's also possible that the inefficiencies you'll introduce into your reforging will outweigh the gains seen by the rune proc (keeping in mind that 3/4+ of the time you spend will be outside of rune procs). I haven't really bothered to try it, myself, so I don't know which of those competing influences will win out.
    Last edited by Nitwit; 2013-03-22 at 11:28 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryethe View Post
    It's good. The only worse normal mode trinket is Talisman of Bloodlist. For normal mode Renataki > Juju > Shado Pan > ToB. It seems ~= LFR Juju/Renataki.
    Source: http://dread-gaming.com/simc/enh_trinkets_t15h.html.
    Complete Simc noob question but, and i am sorry if this seems to general but, how do I sim to see how gear upgrade rankings would be. I currently have access to Normal mode Renataki and the LFR Bad Juju, and I am trying to figure out how Viscous Talisman stacks up against them and if it is worth getting?

  18. #38
    In you simcraft, we don't see Relic of Xuen, upgrade 2/2 (484). What do you think about it vs other trinket 502 for example ?

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