Eh.. - what, but- I-...
How are Dungeon set 1/1.5 and Tier 0.5 NOT like T14(1/3) (LFR)? It's pretty much the same concept.
Eh.. - what, but- I-...
How are Dungeon set 1/1.5 and Tier 0.5 NOT like T14(1/3) (LFR)? It's pretty much the same concept.
By Blizzard Entertainment:
Part of the reason is that Battlegrounds are like ducks.
To be there is everything.
To me, the Olympics are the very opposite of what raiding is. Raiding is about self entitlement, and only the best matter.... In Olympics even the ones that are dead last on the score boards are cheered and celebrated, for just being there and part of it.
Basically what you're asking for is more content, blizzard has given you equal quality to 25 mans and you're STILL crying.
--- Want any of my Constitutional rights?, ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
I come from a time and a place where I judge people by the content of their character; I don't give a damn if you are tall or short; gay or straight; Jew or Gentile; White, Black, Brown or Green; Conservative or Liberal.
For Dungeon Set 0/0.5:
1) Form a group manually
2) Content was reasonably difficult, but for casual style of play, no where near as close as raid but still challenging.
3) You don't get to do it so much so it feel fresh, new, last longer, and you don't feel jaded,bored, burn out when you do it overtime.
4) You feel more excitement and fun when anticipating reward that feels earned at the end.
1) No group forming
2) Content is easy, mindless, boring, and nothing more than an activity to do because you pay.
3) Content is so easily accessbile that you do more and faster... leading to burn out and boredom at the content.
4) Loot feels fake, not rewarding, not earned. Getting loot feels like you're not getting anything at all.
See? there's lots of differences... but the MAIN different is the overall feeling player get from the process. You get two totally different feeling from the two example mentioned.
One is more fun, exciting, less boring. The other is mindless, easy, and causes burn out fashta.
---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 06:20 PM ----------
He meant the feeling you get raiding the normal in Vanilla and TBC is deprived for people who do LFR... and this is just wrong.
---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 06:23 PM ----------
This really means:
1) Join a guild that raid 2 days a week for 6 hours, 3hrs/day or something like that.
Instead of joining a guild that raid 5 days a week for 25 hours, 5 hours/day or something like that.
See? both do it differently, but they get the same feeling from doing it. The fun and excitement... ermmm... like both people, one who eat the steak more and one who eat it less... but they get the same tasty feeling from it. Everyone likes steak the same way... like they like raiding/dungeon doing PvE content the same way.
---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 06:26 PM ----------
The 10 man back then were more reasonable in difficulty then now. Because you have to manually form a group alone heighten the sense of the activity. Now a day you wait 45 minute and you're put up with stranger... it's just... having to form a group and not having to form a group put one activity at a 12 and the other at a 4.
---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 06:37 PM ----------
I have said it over and over again and you keep saying "don't do LFR". I said
1) I don't want to do normal because I can experience the setting in LFR.
2) I don't want to do LFR because it drop fake gear.
3) I don't want to do normal because LFR gear is color purple instead of purple blue.
This discussion isn't ME trying to take away things from other like you put it. This discussion is about me fighting for what people really want: fun and excitement.
My ultimate goal is to play the game again when I have fought to fix it into a state where I once experienced fun and excitement because the STATE OF THE GAME was in a form that evoked fun excitement, not because it was merely NEW. Life is not as simple as "adapt or quit" or "dont do it if you dont find it fun". Life is about "fight to make it fun again if you found it fun before".
You're borderline arguing that everyone is different, and don't take away LFR from people who "DO WANT TO ENJOY" LFR. My view is that people who do LFR don't enjoy it... and this needs to be fix. Not only dont they enjoy, the presence of LFR makes me NOT enjoy normal raiding too.
It is fact and intended logic:
1) [Fact] people don't have to do raid OFTEN.
2) [Intended logic] Because people don't have time to do it often, we make LFR.
With the fact and intended logic aside, because they're uninteresting, lets focus on what is interesting. The real question:
1) Do people who do LFR find fun and excitement from it like they would if they had to manually form a group to do a dungeon or JOIN a raiding guild to do raid?
The latter scenario is set up for difficulty that would evoke fun and excitement. The former scenario is set up for difficulty that is mindless, easy, boring and burn out faster.
The argument of doing what's for you is unacceptable because there's always a bridge in people's mind. There is a bridge that connect LFR to normal. LFR "affects" the view of normal raiding and hence affects people's preference to do normal raiding.
I gave what this effect is already in 1-3.
Last edited by LairenyX; 2013-03-18 at 06:56 PM.
- People who loved raiding are still raiding normals and heroics, and enjoying it.
- People who previously weren't able to raid are raiding LFR, and enjoying it.
- People who want to form groups for normal/heroic raiding are still doing so, however it's more difficult to form groups for various reasons, none of which make it impossible.
You type an absolutely amazing amount to basically say "this is how I think it should be". The only thing your ideas would do is turn those people currently only raiding LFR away from raiding at all, and make a less enjoyable activity (forming/leading groups) become a much larger part of what people would be required to do.
-People who previously weren't able to raid are raiding LFR, and enjoying it.
ARE they enjoying it!? or are they just mindlessly doing the raid without experiencing and fun and excitement and getting burned out? To wildly claim that people who do LFR enjoy it in the same way people who form group to do dungeon and join guild to do raid is a BIGGG way to contaminate the discussion. The fact is that these two activities evoke TWO different feelings from the group of people that do them.
I don't have enough data to be convince your other claim that the presence of LFR have no affect on raiders who do normal and heroics. Anything about LFR that makes normal and heroic LESS APPEALING, even if they are doing, is a BIG concern to me and things like this is what I want to find out.
It might be difficult for people to form group and do heroic because the pool of available player are diminishing. Why? maybe cause they''re doing LFR/LFD, getting bored and burned out by this mindless activity and quitting the game.
You state a fact that I'm trying to say "this is how I think it should be" but so what? I clearly have a reason to say what I say.
Your main point are as follows:
1) I only concern about people doing an activity. I don't care if the activity is fun or exciting.
Have you considered that maybe any attempt to prepare for raid via group forming and doing steping stone PvE may bring out more excitement and fun than just DOING an activity alone like LFR? Maybe people who never got to raid felt more excitement and fun from the game when they did it less than now where they're doing it like crazy? maybe people who raided 6 hours a weak found raiding more fun and exciting than people who raid 25 hours a week now via LFR?
I need some reasonable thinking about DOES an activity make a player feels fun and excitement and how this activities affect other activities. I need less of a discussion concerning merely about players HAVING an activity to do because they paid. They paid to be able to form group and join guild. That's game play that's not available in another game like Metal Gear Solid: Reveangence.
I CLEARLY out right don't believe and reject your claims that people who do LFR enjoy it... and that people who do normal raiding and heroic dont enjoy it less because of the presence of LFR alone.
Reality is just so harsh because of this:
1) You justify LFR because you claim "forming a group is not enjoyable".
and I keep saying:
1) Forming a group might not be enjoyable BY ITSELF if you're just looking at it but you have to put the OVERALLLLLL process of PVE where forming a group is half of the game play.
You have to ask a question like:
1) Does PvE feels more fun and exciting OVERALLLL and toward the ender AFTERRR player go through the LFG part? LFG is simply NOT raiding by itself.
I don't fail to see anything, it is you who fails to see anything by not asking deeper questions and go beyond surface and scratches analysis and generalized thinking with NO context in mind.
What I hope we can all agree on is: Neither person is totally, 100% correct. No argument applies to every single subscriber. A blanket statement like some of the arguments I've seen here is like saying, "The United States is a terrible country because....xyz." Points x, y, and z may all be completely valid, but another person can say, "The United States is an amazing country because...abc.". A, B, and C may also be true too but that doesn't automatically negate the former statement.
Blizzard made many of the changes like LFD and LFR because we (a large enough portion of the population) asked for such changes. If it was truly ruining the game, Blizzard would make steps to rectify those changes. It would be completely stupid for a business like Blizzard to completely ignore something that caused users to leave en masse.
My goal is not to flame you because I think your statements are well thought-out and you provide suggestions, but I don't agree with the fact that you are neglecting to acknowledge other people's points.
OT: I recently joined OpenRaid and I feel like it's a great way for players to come together to raid/pvp/whatever. Sure it's not the same as spamming trade chat and finding people on your own server, but it serves a similar purpose. It's not a separate instance/raid/gear class as you suggested, but it's another way for casual raiders to experience content.
Last edited by pld; 2013-03-18 at 08:58 PM.
Are people just blantly taking all those talk about pizzas, steak, Pacific Rim audiences, sweet sugar tasting, ignore them and just labeled me as somebody who just "have an opinion out of the blue"? I don't have unlimited resources and 100% access to wow internal Data to measure people's happiness when they do acitivities in WoW. All I have is to reasonably deduce how people react toward playing WoW based on how they are naturally in other activities in the real world... like what kind of movies they like, how they find food tasting the same way, and so on.
My argument is to use these observation to reasonably say that we are more similar than we are different and the differences are insignificant. Most of the people here with argumentx seems to have a generalized idea of "everyone is difference hence LFD/LFR is good" and I've countered so many time where a generalized saying like that is INSUFFICIENT to have the kind of discussion we're having. You cant ignore the significant context of similarities in human nature in your generalized statement. If everyone is different, we surely will need normal, heroic, LFD/LFR, and atleast 10 million other modes of PvE.
I've had enough of the generalized statement with "no argument applies to every single subscribers" kind of "everyone is different". Put some context in there before you use this generalized argument to justify LFD/LFR.
Blizzard didn't make sht cause we ask for anything. I want some data or else I'll just assume Blizzard saw talks about bad days and made a decision to change the game based on talk, despite the fact that the frustration discussed could have contributed to the overall enjoyment of the game.
Right now, All I'm assuming is that blizzard is just trying to be humble in their decision making and they're not considering in reality how people really feel when they interact with the game. They just see "ppl talking about frustration, they must be suffering, must get rid of source of furstration". They got to ask these deeper question. Questions like, even if people aren't experiencing raid, are they still enjoying the game MORE than if LFR/LFD had existed?
I have plenty of reason to dispute other post so far and I've put down reasons why. Most of them stem from situation of discussion contamination and over generalized statement without any context in mind.
For anyone else whose going to respond with "everyone is different", give me some concret example of a context in which alot of people are doing the same activity and they feel differently toward it. Talk about what motivation they all have to do this same one activity. Make such an activity be about entertainment.
@your last paragraph.
You're telling me more fact and intended logic. Like:
"I feel it's a great way for players to come together to raid/pvp/whatever"... well okay, that's what the design of LFR/LFD is for. That's fact and intended logic. Now tell me something about your opinion on how player FEELS when they are interacting with this activity. No fact and intended logic please.
LFD/LFR being another way to do raid is also more fact and intended logic.
Last edited by LairenyX; 2013-03-18 at 10:11 PM.
But i would imagine as a "casual" you wouldn't have a tonne of time to spent a hour of so to form a group to raid / dungeon for it to fail straight off the bat would be pretty frustrating.
Ain't those who is serious about raiding doing 25 mans and the more casual playerbase doing 10 man raids?
People have time to form group manually and find a guild that is premade. This guild can just raid casually. Sure, someday you migh have trouble finding people, but other days you might get lucky and you see plenty of tank and heal LFDPS. This frustration and triumphs is supposed to contribute to the overall fun of PvE.
---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 10:05 PM ----------
You assume I'm some person who doesn't enjoy forming and leading pugs - You're wrong. I used to love forming and leading pugs, but that was before I joined a great guild and found it MUCH more enjoyable than what I used to have to do to get a half decent group together. I've spent 4 hours getting a group for a 3 hour raid. I've spent hours trying to replace that bum who left early, but everyone else wants to finish. I've been there, YOU don't have to tell me how it works, but you're free to keep trying.
You jump on every reasonable claim other posters make like they're making some huge assumption, it's quite ridiculous.
You're way is not THE WAY. You might have some good ideas, but I can't find them in your continued unsubstantiated opinions and "feelings" of how much better things would be if you were in charge.
Please, prove to me that the majority (or even a large portion) of the player base wants to get rid of LFR/D and bring back looking for groups on server through chat channels and you'll have a much better argument. Right now all you have done is spent thousands of characters telling us your opinion on how things should be and why it would be so much better. I'd be surprised if you've convinced anybody.
Manually forming group have two form:
1) For dungeon it's to do it everytime you want to do it.
2) For raid, it's to join a guild who have people avaible already.
You don't form a raid the same way you join a dungeon.
...and what the hell is this "You don't have to tell me how it works, but you're free to keep trying" crap? are you just saying that to look good?
My main point is that this frustration adds to the overall fun and excitement of the game when you kill a boss and get earned reward... and you're saying something else that is totally unrelated to this point.
Let me make it clear so far there is two side:
1) Me who say "everyone is the same".
2) I say why I think this is true in the WoW context.
3) I gave PLENTY of observation in the real world to show how we are naturally alike in the same thing we do.
1) People who say "Everyone is different".
2) They're not showing how it is more convincing that the different is more significant than the similarity in justifying LFD/LFR.
3) They're not saying how you need more mode aside from LFD/LFR/Normal/Heroic, atleast 10 millions more ways to experienced PVE.
Get at me with an argument of how our differences are more significant than our similarities in the way WoW should be designed and experienced. Put in context of the same thing that many people do.
Prove to you? I can't prove to you because I dont have hardcore data. All I have so far are reasonable observation of the real world to back up my point that everyone want to experience PvE the same way.
1) Plenty of us will watch the Pacific Rim because we like Pacific Rim in the same way.
2) We like medium rare steak the same way.
3) We all find babies adorable in the same way.
4) We all find sugar sweet tasting in the same way.
Pacific Rim, Babies, Medium rare steak are the equivalent of PvE in WoW. They're all the same activity that MANY people will do and everyone who do it will like to do it the same way.
When I say "the same way" I'm talking about how they like to experience a state of PvE that evokes fun and excitement.
I'm telling you christ, we like giant robots in the same way and we preffer experiencing PvE.
Now give me some counter example to justify LFD/LFR... give me some counter example to why there should only be 2 ways of experiencing PvE: the LFD/LFR and Normal/Heroic. There should be 10 millions of way to experience this. Give me some counter example that doing LFR/LFD is FUN and exciting instead of mindless and boring.
Last edited by LairenyX; 2013-03-18 at 10:40 PM.
I'll give you a line to defeat the point of this thread. They're wanting to go forward as a company, not backward. Doing what they did in Vanilla would mean they're taking the game a step backward because they obviously saw flaws in that system. If Casuals want content, they can do content because 10-25man can still be experienced in a Casual environment, there are casual guilds doing this right now in Normal Throne/Terrace and it's just as you say, they won't complete it any time soon because they have a social life.
Last edited by NatePsychotic; 2013-03-18 at 10:48 PM.
Ubrs being "raid" able and there being a key to enter that, for most of classic was a leftover from ubrs being a actual raid at start, as the tier 1 (arcanist and such, not the magisters dropping there now) were rare drops of bosses and trash before molten core was even out.
Stratholme being more then 5 mannable was the result of the naxx entrance being planned in the abomination room before rivendare. (you know the place all those zombies came out of when you tried to enter the rivendare building) This idea was altered to be a instance portal outside, but the dungeon setting remained.
These 5man(intended) dungeons more or less were testing grounds for blizz, in terms of what larger group pve was like for players and for servers. And comparing overmanning a 5man (which it realy was) to lfr, or even calling it harder is hilarious, sure items were lacking back then/most ppl were clueless about what to use (including blizzard themselves, spirit, agi and mp5 on mage gear? wtf), but the actual difficulty was far below the looking for ret.... blizz pulled of to allow the masses to see instances. (exception being the dungeon 1.5 set bosses they added later, or tier 0.5 as it was known as back then as there was only 1 max lvl dungeon set and the bosses allowed you to upgrade them slightly)
LFR itself is like cramming 25 random ppl in a 10man raid (difficulty wise). Hence this is the casual form of raiding, blizz even chopped the instance in different "wings" so you can pick blocks of 3-4 bosses to raid, instead of having to return to the same place another day to continue the instance clear. Besides you dont even need to know where the instance is to begin with, you just do a instance que and you are there. How can they make it more casual? 1 boss per lfr? no trash @ all? Bosses being asleep 25% of the fight?
There is enough stuff to do for casuals, LFR, 5mans(all 3 difficulties of them), pet battles, daylies, archeology, pugs, battlegrounds. If you want content in the game, that isn't organised(i dont considder most lfr runs organised, more a glorified loot piñata that is being mauled by 25 randoms) 6 or more person pve or pvp, then open your eyes, the game is full of it.
Why are they going forward and "evolving" the game if their decision makes me want to quit the game? I just dont get it christ. Do they even ask themselves "What evoke fun and excitement rather than just an activity to do"?
IT sounds like devolving the game rather than evolving it... and going backward instead of forward if ppl want to quit the game.
Maybe it's time to move on? If WoW is not pleasing you anymore for the things you desire, then maybe you should look elsewhere for your wants?
Last edited by NatePsychotic; 2013-03-18 at 11:09 PM.