Make raid for casual and do it right!

[Coraulten]

Why are you pulling out technicality again? I'm just saying:
Logic = Technicality?
1) There are more PvE lover than pure PVE lover.
Useing your own math i just proved to you thats not ture, obviously i can't make that assertion because i don't have the REAL data just purely based on you math.
You keep arguing with me that we don't all love PvE the same way... but I'm telling you that we do. We ALL love PvE the same way. After enough observation about how we're all the same this is just true. There's this misconception you keep saying:
I just told you i do not enjoy it the same way as you do IM AS A PERSON TELLING YOU I DO NOT LIKE IT THE SAME WAY AS you that completely moots your point that we ALL like pve the same way, who are you to tell me how i like to enjoy a game?
1) You think spending hours LFG is fun then do it but you're different.

I did not say this. I said:

1) LGF contribute to the OVERALL excitement and fun in the process of doing a dungeon... at the end where you get the reward.
I disagree, excitement and fun are subjective. I do not find enjoyment from LFG.
The reward feels more legit when you did the traveling of group forming jesus. I did not say forming group feels fun AT THE MOMENT U DO IT. It's like fighting a hard boss and wiping. WIping is not 2 fun... but its fun when u own the dude.
Again saying your personal opinion is how everyone feels.
Dude, dude, dont even begin to disprove me that everyone likes PvE differently and bringing out your guild as an example. I told you the formula:
Yes you told me the formula that you pulled out your ass that i then disproved with your idiotic math.
1) We want to use the community/have a community to form a group with who we will see again, not complete stranger.
Yeah thats why blizzard invented RealID?
2) we want to feel earned when we are reward at the end of the PvE process. (again part of it is forming group)
[/B]Again talking about you personal feelings to justify your argument which is not a valid retort.[/B]

Because of the 2 I just mentioned, this is why I keep saying we're ALLLL the same in the way we like to experience the process of PvE.
Your useing your own personal opinion to make the assertion that we're all like you.
You keep trying to disprove me by saying:

1) "No we're all different because my guild raid 2 night a week and hardcore guild raid every day"
I provided an examples as to how we are different, not this being the exact reason why we are different.
...and you pretty much just back me up with the fact that the way in which we are the same are more significant than the way in which we are different. SRSLY dude.
Lets play this little game of yours, since we're "so much alike" that means we all like my favorite color blue, my favorite food pizza, my favorite music genre ect...see how flawed your arguement is?

I just argued against your "true scott man" saying again by giving the example how we are the same just now and this is more significant than how we are different, I.e you raid 2 hour and I raid 3. This is SOO irrelevant, this different is insignificant. The surface is not as important as what's deep underneed... deep in how we all feel the same toward PvE.
Do you not quite graps what an opinion is? Please befor you make a response to this google the defenition of "opinion"

Yeah yeah your talk about clone being different only prove that the different is insignificant compare to the similarity.
Was just an interesting fact.

Look, babies are adorable. The fact that a person say "baby is adorable" is an opinion... it is also fact that everyone find babies adorable... so if you're to say babies are not adorable, your opinion is not true. Geeze!
I do not find all babies adorable. Please stop assumeing everyone shares your personal view on the every subject.
It's like one of those saying... all molecule are compounds but not all compounds are molecule... ermm this can be like some opinion are fact and no fact are opinion? ermm IDK.
Not even close. If something is a fact, it is not an opinion. They are mutually exclusive.

Yeah, anyways I've argued sufficently enough that we all like PvE the same way.
Your whole arguement so far has been my opinion is right and everyone shares my opinion because we have have similarities.
If you think otherwise, you're just thinking that babies are not adorable and your opinion is wrong.
There is no such thing as a wrong opinion. There is no such thing as a Right opinion.
LOOLOLOLOL @statement: "your opinion is wrong"[COLOR="red"]

My parts are in bold.

[Nadev]

You can logically implement LFD after observing people talk about their frustrating... but logic here does not have a good conceptional understanding of how human work. It's good to talk about your problem... it's natural... but please dont implement LFD. We dont really want it.

Your fingers are so far in your ears it's almost pointless talking with you. I've seen very few people in this thread agree LFR is bad, even fewer say LFD is bad. Who is this ever-elusive "we" you speak of?

This is the last time I'm going to say it: There is not a single thing stopping you from wasting your day sitting in the Shrine or where ever the hell else you might be posting "LFG 90 heroics". Not. One. Thing. It hasn't been removed.

[LairenyX]

Why are you pulling out technicality again? I'm just saying:
Logic = Technicality?
1) There are more PvE lover than pure PVE lover.
Useing your own math i just proved to you thats not ture, obviously i can't make that assertion because i don't have the REAL data just purely based on you math.
You keep arguing with me that we don't all love PvE the same way... but I'm telling you that we do. We ALL love PvE the same way. After enough observation about how we're all the same this is just true. There's this misconception you keep saying:
I just told you i do not enjoy it the same way as you do IM AS A PERSON TELLING YOU I DO NOT LIKE IT THE SAME WAY AS you that completely moots your point that we ALL like pve the same way, who are you to tell me how i like to enjoy a game?
1) You think spending hours LFG is fun then do it but you're different.

I did not say this. I said:

1) LGF contribute to the OVERALL excitement and fun in the process of doing a dungeon... at the end where you get the reward.
I disagree, excitement and fun are subjective. I do not find enjoyment from LFG.
The reward feels more legit when you did the traveling of group forming jesus. I did not say forming group feels fun AT THE MOMENT U DO IT. It's like fighting a hard boss and wiping. WIping is not 2 fun... but its fun when u own the dude.
Again saying your personal opinion is how everyone feels.
Dude, dude, dont even begin to disprove me that everyone likes PvE differently and bringing out your guild as an example. I told you the formula:
Yes you told me the formula that you pulled out your ass that i then disproved with your idiotic math.
1) We want to use the community/have a community to form a group with who we will see again, not complete stranger.
Yeah thats why blizzard invented RealID?
2) we want to feel earned when we are reward at the end of the PvE process. (again part of it is forming group)
[/B]Again talking about you personal feelings to justify your argument which is not a valid retort.[/B]

Because of the 2 I just mentioned, this is why I keep saying we're ALLLL the same in the way we like to experience the process of PvE.
Your useing your own personal opinion to make the assertion that we're all like you.
You keep trying to disprove me by saying:

1) "No we're all different because my guild raid 2 night a week and hardcore guild raid every day"
I provided an examples as to how we are different, not this being the exact reason why we are different.
...and you pretty much just back me up with the fact that the way in which we are the same are more significant than the way in which we are different. SRSLY dude.
Lets play this little game of yours, since we're "so much alike" that means we all like my favorite color blue, my favorite food pizza, my favorite music genre ect...see how flawed your arguement is?

I just argued against your "true scott man" saying again by giving the example how we are the same just now and this is more significant than how we are different, I.e you raid 2 hour and I raid 3. This is SOO irrelevant, this different is insignificant. The surface is not as important as what's deep underneed... deep in how we all feel the same toward PvE.
Do you not quite graps what an opinion is? Please befor you make a response to this google the defenition of "opinion"

Yeah yeah your talk about clone being different only prove that the different is insignificant compare to the similarity.
Was just an interesting fact.

Look, babies are adorable. The fact that a person say "baby is adorable" is an opinion... it is also fact that everyone find babies adorable... so if you're to say babies are not adorable, your opinion is not true. Geeze!
I do not find all babies adorable. Please stop assumeing everyone shares your personal view on the every subject.
It's like one of those saying... all molecule are compounds but not all compounds are molecule... ermm this can be like some opinion are fact and no fact are opinion? ermm IDK.
Not even close. If something is a fact, it is not an opinion. They are mutually exclusive.

Yeah, anyways I've argued sufficently enough that we all like PvE the same way.
Your whole arguement so far has been my opinion is right and everyone shares my opinion because we have have similarities.
If you think otherwise, you're just thinking that babies are not adorable and your opinion is wrong.
There is no such thing as a wrong opinion. There is no such thing as a Right opinion.
LOOLOLOLOL @statement: "your opinion is wrong"[COLOR="red"]

My parts are in bold.

I'm using fast estimate to make a point and you're going back to technicality again to drag out discussion that are unecessary. It doesn't freaking matter how many people liek PvP or PvE. My argument is that we like to experience PvE the same WAY.

I'm not going to even tell you how you should enjoy the game. In reality, you're already naturally freaking rigged to like PvE the same way I do. The fact that you say you preffer LFR/LFD/Instant PoP/Easy loot more than forming a group and doing reasonably challegning content is just FALSE... because you like PvE the same way I do christ. You keep saying FORMING GROUP IS NOT FUN when I say the overall PROCESS, what you feel at the end is what matter.

The best you can counter against my argument that people who do the same context find fun the same way with "fun is subjective" is a weak argument to prove that people who do the same activity enjoy it differently. Your other argument seems to be "ohhh it's your own personal opinion" when I'm part of the same human race that has evolved for million of year to be more similar than different from my peer. My OWN personal opinion? then how do you explain how people are confident enough to dish out 250 million dollar to make Pacific Rim? if everyone have their "own" opinion about what genre to like then how can producer be confident that this money will make cash? that's cause people are the SAME. They LIKE stuff in Pacific Rim... especially if you use the context that a group of people who does the same acitivity.

Again, this whole thing isn't about math, it's about a fast estimation to make a point about how we all like PvE the same way. As for your favorite color being blue, your favorite food being pizza... so what are you going to say about another person who lieks blue and pizza? blue + pizza = the same context that people do. Blue + Pizza = WoW + PvE.

Your logic: I like PIZZA cause it taste SOOO good... but everyone is different so another person will like pizza cause it's artistic. LOLOLOL... that sounds so wrong... and then your down fault is in your opinion that there is 8 billion ways to like Pizza becaue everyone likes Pizza differently. You and I like pizza the same way. Hell everyone on Earth like the same Pizza the sameway, like EVERYONE on earth likes doing PvE the same way.

You don't find all babies adorable? I dont care as long as you find some babies adorable... lets pick another example... why does Kim Kardashian work? cause poeple like her face the same way.

My argument aint based upon opinion. I aint gonna put up with your I like pizza different from another person who likes pizza. That' just pure bullshit. We all like pizza the same way like we preffer PvE the same way. There is such a thing as a right opinion and such a thing as a wrong opinion... like finding sugar bitter is a wrong opinion.

If you're adamant, that's find. I'll summarize our view

YOU:

1) People find LFR/LFD fun.
2) People like fast, easy, accessible, content, and easy reward.
3) Everyone likes PvE different.

ME:

1) People find LFR/LFD boring.
2) People like manually forming group because it contribute to the overall excitement and fun at the end where reward are feel earned, amplify by the manual group forming process.
3) Everyone is like this.

It is up to people to agree with who is more correct if you refuse to see it my way that everyone likes the same acitvity they do the same.

People, when you decide try not to have:

1) "LFD is better because it is logical" mentality.

Don't say "Because people found it frustrating at SOME point, it should be removed".

Also, I dont know if you're similar to Fenixdown's situation of discussion contaminating. IDK if you're up there high and mighty with your community and a guild that is manually established already to do fun and rewarding activity and you're sitting here speaking for people who doesn't experience what you experience. That's just wrong, you're not the same as them so dont speak for them.

I merely want for these people to experience what you experience if that is how you experience it.



---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 02:14 AM ----------

Your fingers are so far in your ears it's almost pointless talking with you. I've seen very few people in this thread agree LFR is bad, even fewer say LFD is bad. Who is this ever-elusive "we" you speak of?

This is the last time I'm going to say it: There is not a single thing stopping you from wasting your day sitting in the Shrine or where ever the hell else you might be posting "LFG 90 heroics". Not. One. Thing. It hasn't been removed.

Look, the only people actively talking so far is ME, you, Fenixdown, and Coraulten it seeems. I wish the rest of the people would talk more and take your 3 side or my side... but apparently no one is talking so I have to talk for them. I feel especially compel because my argument that we liek PvE the same way.

You argue differently because you dont concieve people the same way I do so you keep using argument of "This should be better cause it sounds more logical" totally ignoring how people like thing naturally...

Then I have to deal with discussion contamination because you belong to another context, and you're blending into this one.

...and again I will respond, everything about LFR stop me. Just its existence alone AFFECT me mentally and naturally.

1) I dont want to do regular content because I can easy do it in LFR.
2) I dont want to do LFR cause it drop fake gear.

Hence I'm locked... and I got to argue abt sht here.

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 02:32 AM ----------

Ohh ermm if anyone is going to point me out for the part of where I say "what you say is false because you like PvE the same way I do" by responding with "even when he says it"

My justification is simply in the concept of discussion contamination. Where you're at a better place, belong to a different context, but you come here and speak to people whose context you're not experience. Example:

1) You belong to a big guild that do 25 or 10 man regular and heroic. This is manual group forming. People who you will see again. Your community.
2) You do reasonably challenging content, getting reward that feels earned.

So the fun and excitement is normal for you in the overall PvE process.

Then you go to the discussion of context that you dont belong to and say sht along the line:

1) Oh I'm a PVEer so I'm the same as these people who are doing LFR/LFD. I agree LFR/LFD is the BEST. I will never go back... fun is subjective... everyone lieks the game different... etc etc... and you go on to contaminate the discussion and opinion like you can affect the game design decision severly.

...when the fact is that everyone is the same and you dont realize it... you contaminate everything.

...Just stay in your context and dont participate in this discussion if you're not in this context and you dont understand how people feel in this context cause you don't feel it okay? dont come from your context and justify bordom here by saying "everyone enjoys thing differently" when you're not suffering this context.

[Nadev]

...and again I will respond, everything about LFR stop me. Just its existence alone AFFECT me mentally and naturally.

And you expect people to take you seriously like this? If the mere existence of an optional feature (that can for all intents and purposes be outright ignored, especially with the 10% nerfs to Tier 14) unnerves you to the point of forcing you to quit playing the game, you are beyond hope.

I don't know what to make of you. You don't want to do content because you can do it in LFR, but LFR is the bane of your existence. Do you not play this game for fun? Do what is fun for you: normal/heroic raids and manual dungeon runs. Let other people do what's fun for them: quick and easy content.

[LairenyX]

And you expect people to take you seriously like this? If the mere existence of an optional feature (that can for all intents and purposes be outright ignored, especially with the 10% nerfs to Tier 14) unnerves you to the point of forcing you to quit playing the game, you are beyond hope.

I don't know what to make of you. You don't want to do content because you can do it in LFR, but LFR is the bane of your existence. Do you not play this game for fun? Do what is fun for you: normal/heroic raids and manual dungeon runs. Let other people do what's fun for them: quick and easy content.

Hi actually, after looking up your profile... I see you have QUITE a bit of LFR item. I am interested in how you feel cause you're not sitting on a throne like Fenixdown.

Do you find:

1) LFR exciting, fun, and reward feels earned at the end?

0r

2) Fast, Easy, mindelss, boring, and reward does not feel earned? simply an activity to do to kill time because you paid.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BTW, I told you my reason.

1) Why should I do this to experience the same content when I can do that?
2) why should I do that when it reward fake stuff?

[Nadev]

Hi actually, after looking up your profile... I see you have QUITE a bit of LFR item. I am interested in how you feel cause you're not sitting on a throne like Fenixdown.

Do you find:

1) LFR exciting, fun, and reward feels earned at the end?

0r

2) Fast, Easy, mindelss, boring, and reward does not feel earned? simply an activity to do to kill time because you paid.

Fun and exciting the first five times maybe. But I got to the point where I was trying to run all 5 LFRs on 4 different characters every week and got completely burnt out on the game. I don't think the reward necessarily feels earned because anyone (regardless of contribution to the raid) can get loot. Of course, if the gear was merit based, odds are the people who need the gear the least would win every time and the people who need it the most would spend weeks running LFR praying that they could win that piece. It's fast and easy (and arguably boring) because it factors in 25 strangers of vastly different skill and gear levels being thrust into a group and expected to succeed.

Believe me, doing normal raids in T11 was arguably the high point of my WoW career, but I'm at college now and the internet connection is so bad here that I disconnect every other time I try to zone in. I don't have the time or the tech capabilities to do proper raiding for the time being. I'm glad that Blizzard has added options like LFD and LFR for people who can't dedicate hours on end to play the game. LFR certainly wouldn't be my first choice of content, but it's the most I can do for the time being. I hope I can do Throne of Thunder for real once my term is over.

BTW, I told you my reason.

1) Why should I do this to experience the same content when I can do that?
2) why should I do that when it reward fake stuff?

And once again, don't do the content if you don't think it is fun.

[LairenyX]

Fun and exciting the first five times maybe. But I got to the point where I was trying to run all 5 LFRs on 4 different characters every week and got completely burnt out on the game. I don't think the reward necessarily feels earned because anyone (regardless of contribution to the raid) can get loot. Of course, if the gear was merit based, odds are the people who need the gear the least would win every time and the people who need it the most would spend weeks running LFR praying that they could win that piece. It's fast and easy (and arguably boring) because it factors in 25 strangers of vastly different skill and gear levels being thrust into a group and expected to succeed.

Believe me, doing normal raids in T11 was arguably the high point of my WoW career, but I'm at college now and the internet connection is so bad here that I disconnect every other time I try to zone in. I don't have the time or the tech capabilities to do proper raiding for the time being. I'm glad that Blizzard has added options like LFD and LFR for people who can't dedicate hours on end to play the game. LFR certainly wouldn't be my first choice of content, but it's the most I can do for the time being. I hope I can do Throne of Thunder for real once my term is over.



And once again, don't do the content if you don't think it is fun.

Okie, thx for answering. I think that's a bit crazy to be doing LFR across 4 toons. It sucks that you're burned out dude.

Manually forming group... I guess kind of keep the content back a little bit so you're not constantly doing them and having less of an opportunity to get burned out. You always have that gate that restrain you from being exposed yeah. This means throughout the whole expansion, things always feel NEW rather than old and boring.

...and then that factor of feeling things are a bit more challegning when having to put a group together I suppose.

Butt erm... man that feeling of burn out... man.

Blizzard need to make it so that content feels new and not old and boring through perpetual exposing players to it... otherwise ppl gonna quit cause they'r bored and burn out.

[Coraulten]

@lairenyX

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are one of a few things,

Trolling.

Mentally handicapped.

To young to understand logic.

If it is the latter of the two i apologize for dragging this argument on. I cannot fathom how anyone could possible think as you do without these being the case. You do not understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. You think that because we're all human beings, we think the same exact way. You do not understand what subjective means. You misquote my arguments so you can make up some idiotic retort. You make up numbers to support your statements and when your same math is used against you (lets try what you did, 90% of the worlds population think your an idiot, since we're all humans it must be true herp derp #yourlogic), you claim it is irrelevant and "technical". You have yet to provide a single valid to response to any of the issued i raised. You continue to use logical fallacy's to further prove your point.

You claim because we're all humans we must all think and feel the same way right? If that was the case there would be no wars, no religions, no separated countries.

To respond to your idiotic attempt to discredit my example reguarding pizza; Some people like to pick the toppings off or cheese off befor eating it, some people like folding it in half ect... The correlation can be made to world of warcraft. People who play the game obviously (for the most part probably a few exceptions) enjoy the game but not everyone enjoys it the same way same for PVE.

I've listed SOME of the issues with your arguments there are many other fallacy's and such i did not address. Until such a time when you can think logically and provide a logical argument its pointless for you to make a response.

Infracted. Flaming is not tolerated here.

[Iracor]

Make a raid for casuals and do it right you ask?

Two words: Normal Modes.

[LairenyX]

@lairenyX

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are one of a few things,

Trolling.

Mentally handicapped.

To young to understand logic.

If it is the latter of the two i apologize for dragging this argument on. I cannot fathom how anyone could possible think as you do without these being the case. You do not understand the difference between an opinion and a fact. You think that because we're all human beings, we think the same exact way. You do not understand what subjective means. You misquote my arguments so you can make up some idiotic retort. You make up numbers to support your statements and when your same math is used against you, you claim it is irrelevant and "technical". You have yet to provide a single valid to response to any of the issued i raised. You continue to use logical fallacy's to further prove your point.

You claim because we're all humans we must all think and feel the same way right? If that was the case there would be no wars, no religions, no separated countries.

To respond to your idiotic attempt to discredit my example reguarding pizza; Some people like to pick the toppings off or cheese off befor eating it, some people like folding it in half ect... The correlation can be made to world of warcraft. People who play the game obviously (for the most part probably a few exceptions) enjoy the game but not everyone enjoys it the same way same for PVE.

I've listed SOME of the issues with your arguments there are many other fallacy's and such i did not address. Until such a time when you can think logically and provide a logical argument its pointless for you to make a response.

Look look, I've already made my point. You keep insisting on bring out technical number again when I said I only planned to initially used them briefly to make a rhetorical point.

It doesn't matter how people eat their pizza, like it doesn't matter what class they pick to do dungeon. It only matter how the pizza taste when they eat it, skipping all that irrelevant and insignificant slight different approach toward it. Folding the pizza and drying the oil out of it is not the same as Normal/Heroic/LFR.

Folding a pizza up does not change the taste. Picking topic is like playing raid with different class.

Focus on the similary because that is more significant. Deep down... the similarity being eating pizza taste GOOD if you rather eat it with mushroom than peperony... like raiding FEELS good if you're raiding as a warrior instead of a paladin.

LFR/LFD is equal to eating a pizza with only the bread dough that's not even cooked.

We want that good taste when we EAT the pizza. Like we want that good excitement/fun when we DO the PVE. LFR/LFD makes PvE boring, fast, mindless, and burn you out... like plain uncooked pizza dough with the white powder drying your mouth.

With the wars, religions, and separate country, you're generalizing too manything into one point and this is inaccurate. I will not accept this. When I say everyone is the same, I said that in a general setting where you focus on the significant and ignore the insignificant, but you require more context if you want to get specific.

For the religion people, they want a philosophy that satisfy life. They all want the same thing... and they might modify the religion differently like Christianity and Catholic.

For WAR, everyone fighting on one side are the people playing WoW and doing PvE. The other group are people from a different context. I'm concern with the people on the same side being in the same context. Your generalization doesn't address this.

Remember, wanting excitement and fun from raid, everyone want it... but they might play with a paladin or a rogue.

You need to recognize and start putting in some context. When we're doing the same thing, we like it the SAME way. We're naturally rigged to.

---------- Post added 2013-03-17 at 04:28 AM ----------

It's stupid to think that everyone is different so there's 10 million way to like doing PvE. You need to recognize that people are the same when the same context is put into focus.

Everyone is the same in how they feel when they are doing the same thing.

My reasoning is better than your reasoning IMO... in gameplay design. It's just more consistent with reality.

[Nadev]

Manually forming group... I guess kind of keep the content back a little bit so you're not constantly doing them and having less of an opportunity to get burned out. You always have that gate that restrain you from being exposed yeah. This means throughout the whole expansion, things always feel NEW rather than old and boring.

This is (in my opinion) the only reason to prefer manual groups over LFD. However, I've spaced my characters' leveling enough that I never got burnt out on the dungeons. I've gotten to the point where I only need them for Valor capping and even then I usually don't do it for lack of time.

...and then that factor of feeling things are a bit more challegning when having to put a group together I suppose.

Butt erm... man that feeling of burn out... man.

I humbly disagree here. Putting a group together only artificially lengthens content. There isn't any challenge to it. It makes it so that people who don't have a lot of time spend most if not all of it forming a group they'll never get to finish.

Blizzard need to make it so that content feels new and not old and boring through perpetual exposing players to it... otherwise ppl gonna quit cause they'r bored and burn out.

Players need to gauge themselves and know their limits. I was obsessed with getting weapons and tier on all of my characters, so I ran those dungeons and languished in the queues the whole time to get jack all at the end of it. I'll be focusing on (at most) 2 or 3 characters and only doing the ones I truly need once I come back to the game.

[Deleted]

How's this any different from just doing a PuG Raid? The only difference is that, like anything, normal Raiders will feel that they have to do these extra Raids so that they're not losing out in gear etc.

[LairenyX]

This is (in my opinion) the only reason to prefer manual groups over LFD. However, I've spaced my characters' leveling enough that I never got burnt out on the dungeons. I've gotten to the point where I only need them for Valor capping and even then I usually don't do it for lack of time.



I humbly disagree here. Putting a group together only artificially lengthens content. There isn't any challenge to it. It makes it so that people who don't have a lot of time spend most if not all of it forming a group they'll never get to finish.



Players need to gauge themselves and know their limits. I was obsessed with getting weapons and tier on all of my characters, so I ran those dungeons and languished in the queues the whole time to get jack all at the end of it. I'll be focusing on (at most) 2 or 3 characters and only doing the ones I truly need once I come back to the game.

You did state a fact that LFG lengthen the process. It is also challenging because... if you dont get the group you dont get the loot I suppose.

We need to define challenge, but it's really unecessary to go into this. I only want to focus on what makes a player feel excitement and fun.

[valliant13]

They were 5 man dungeons.
You were able to enter them as raid. You were able to raid them but they were 5 man dungeons.
They revamped the dungeons and decreased the difficulty level a lot.
But they were 5 man dungeons.

LBRS/UBRS were raids.


Also, they weren't 10 man. I did Scholo and Stratholme with as many as 15 people.

LBRS was NOT a raid. Horde questline to get attuned to ony required a five man through LBRS.

[LairenyX]

How's this any different from just doing a PuG Raid? The only difference is that, like anything, normal Raiders will feel that they have to do these extra Raids so that they're not losing out in gear etc.

Man who cares? who cares???

Just focus on what bring out excitement and fun when people do the same activity.

[Drakzlol]

Saying LFR is raiding is like saying special olympics is on the same level as normal olympics.

If you're a casual and want real raiding, join a casual 10 man guild and progress at your own pace.

[LairenyX]

Saying LFR is raiding is like saying special olympics is on the same level as normal olympics.

If you're a casual and want real raiding, join a casual 10 man guild and progress at your own pace.

Yes, I agree with this. To not do what Drakzlol say is detrimental for people who want to raid, even if these people don't have time to do raiding extensively.

It's like... for an example if I'm a rich person, and I can afford to buy expensive medium rare streak to eat. It taste REALLLLYYY good.

...Now if someone is poor and can't afford it want it, and somebody else come up to them and say "Hey, you want to eat that medium rare steak but can't afford it? I can give you this SUBSTITUTE medium rare steak. It looks like a steak, it kind of smell like a steak, but it's completely made for vegetarian with non-animal product".

What does the "fake" medium rare steak taste like? it taste like CRAP that is NOTHING like what the rich ppl are eating.

My point? save up and eat one once in a while, even if you can't eat it as often as rich people do. Or really:

1) We all like raiding/dungeon the same way.
2) This "same way" is to manually form a group for dungeon and joining a guild for raiding. This manually forming of group for raiding and dungeon allow us to do a content that is reasonably difficult. Because the content is reasonably difficult, we feel more excited and happy toward the end when we are rewarded.
3) Having the raid not being soo accessible allow the content to not become BORING so fast and burn out the raider soo fast, leading them to possibly quit the game.

To give player who don't have as much time a "LFR" is like giving them a fake medium rare steak. They're doing it... like they eat the fake steak... but they don't feel the same excitement and fun... like the fake steak taste bad.

It is unfair to encourage them to do this. You can say "you're not FORCED to do it" but the mentality of human being is hardly that simple. If you have this more easier way to do it... you feel compell to do it. Like you dont have dailey but you feel compel to do it. Hell, LFR makes me not want to do anything!

I already say this already but I dont want to experience the content in normal because I can do it in LFR... I don't want to do it in LFR because it gives fake gear. Also... I dont want to do it in normal mode because LFR people also wear "purple" looking gear so I get the mentality that they're as strong as me. Had LFR gear be the color BLUE instead then everything would be different.

So anyways, it's not about having something for everyone. It's everyone want the same thing: to manually form group for dungeon and join a guild for raiding.

[Auxis]

Eh.. - what, but- I-...

How are Dungeon set 1/1.5 and Tier 0.5 NOT like T14(1/3) (LFR)? It's pretty much the same concept.

[Wildtree]

Saying LFR is raiding is like saying special olympics is on the same level as normal olympics.

bad analogy, because in fact both Olympics are the same.... With the Olympics the thought and spirit matters first.
To be there is everything.

To me, the Olympics are the very opposite of what raiding is. Raiding is about self entitlement, and only the best matter.... In Olympics even the ones that are dead last on the score boards are cheered and celebrated, for just being there and part of it.

[Deleted]

My point? save up and eat one once in a while, even if you can't eat it as often as rich people do.

And how does one 'save up' for a raid? and an answer without terrible analogies would be lovely