The Alliance and its loss of Identity.

[Deleted]

By that logic, Tirion Fordring was an old alliance hero, you know what, now that I think of it, so was Khadgar, I could see an argument for throwing Malfurion into the "Not a part of the New Alliance" corner as well, Turalyon and Alleria? They're old Alliance heroes, so it wouldn't be ridiculous at all for them to be neutral, right?

Don't pull that garbage on me. Please think about it first before talking.

The old horde ideology and new horde ideology are fairly diffrent, up to the point that they fought eachother in Outland.
Old alliance and New alliance don't very much differ from concept and morals, they only differ in the fact that Lordaeron is no longer part of it.
I'm fairly certain Turalion and Alleria wouldnt mind joining the new alliance, as to where if they were alive, Ner'zhul and gul'dan certainly won't join the new horde.

[Yogg-Saron, God of Death]

I love this. So much. It was a fantastic read, and I may as well have been staring at my screen screaming "YESYESYESYESYESYESYES!"

I really wish you could just e-mail this to blizzard. xD

This for sure. No, actually, I wish you could step up to Metzen 'n co. and use it to slap them across the faces several times, saying: "Scrubs, this is how it's supposed to be done.".


Sorry, but I'm really getting so sick of how much they are ruining Alliance with a 4-part plan. (1. Promise loads of love and screentime for race/racial leader/faction 2. Make them seem meek/homogenize races/neuter races/etc. 3. Add achievements/other lore that mocks point 2 using sarcasm or any other method of mocking it. 4. Then, when doing a retrospective/post-mortem, generally just say "Oh sorry. We really wanted to make this/that more awesome for the Alliance players but we really didn't manage to due to a few little missteps. We promise awesome fistpumping moment for you guys next expansion!". )


And Faroth, how you said 'A Little Patience' should have gone is exactly how I imagined/wanted it. Wasn't Varian going to earn their respect and learn something from them? Instead, he's kicking them to the ground verbally and teaching the faction leaders while they unrealistically lie down and gasp out "Yes, High King. Everything for you, High King.".


That said, I've lost hope for a good alliance story, at least - an alliance story that doesn't just equal "make every other race lose variety. Make Varian -the Wolf God- Wrynn the most awesomest alliance character, and make the rest of the Alliance members/faction leaders look like incompetent dung. Y'know, a really good alliance story that doesn't equal "Orcs vs Humans -- AND (STUPID) FRIENDS!"

[Florena]

I actually think blood in the snow was handled well. Sure, Varian plays a role, but despite what Cho says, whta brought the clans together was Moira stepping up and taking the risk to defend their homes rather than letting distrust and suspicion of the other clans cloud her judgement, and because of this the dwarves come out of it stronger as a whole.

[Northem]

Ner'zhul and gul'dan certainly won't join the new horde.

I think Gul'dan could join the current Horde, considering that before he died he realized how the Burning Legion had used the orcs as a tool for the destruction of worlds (first Draenor and Azeroth later) following which, he repented of what he had done and vowed revenge against the defilers of his race ...

In fact, it is known that Gul'dan wrote a sort of memories, a testament to endure after his death, the content of which is unknown. Perhaps, with the help of his faithful disciple, Drak'Thul, and its skull itself, that testament reveals the secrets that will make possible bring back him from the Underworld, who would be happy to redeem his past mistakes by helping the new Horde to defeat the Burning Legion, not for nothing, Gul'dan, the Darkness Incarnate, was an important member of the Burning Legion, and his own knowledge about it is vast and extensive ... and that knowledge can be very valuable for the coming war...

But who would dare to find the skull of Gul'dan?, who would find the legacy of Gul'dan in the Broken Islands?, who will go down to the Underworld to bring him back?, will Gul'dan show loyalty to the new Horde when he returns?, can be restored the Shadow Council under the supervision of the Horde?, how would react the Alliance? ...

Many questions ... too many...

[ChocoboRanger]

Honestly, there can't be atheists in WoW. Every single 'religious' class and faction can pretty objectively use their powers.

There's evidence that Elune exists in that she can literally rain stars from the sky to murder a priest's enemies or heal wounds in an instant.

Elementals can be physically seen and fuck shit up.

The Light can make users immortal for a brief period of time.

Atheist implies that they wouldn't believe in the power. There's no reason to not believe. They might simply choose to not worship it, but the stuff pretty objectively exists.

The light is a magic ability given to azeroth by the naaru, Elune herself has been theroized to be a naaru.

The elementals are magic beings who are very mortal in their respective planes.

Nothing here says gods, just magic.

[Florena]

The light is a magic ability given to azeroth by the naaru, Elune herself has been theroized to be a naaru.

The elementals are magic beings who are very mortal in their respective planes.

Nothing here says gods, just magic.

Where is it stated that the people of Azeroth got the Light from the Naaru?

---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 01:00 PM ----------

I think Gul'dan could join the current Horde, considering that before he died he realized how the Burning Legion had used the orcs as a tool for the destruction of worlds (first Draenor and Azeroth later) following which, he repented of what he had done and vowed revenge against the defilers of his race ...

In fact, it is known that Gul'dan wrote a sort of memories, a testament to endure after his death, the content of which is unknown. Perhaps, with the help of his faithful disciple, Drak'Thul, and its skull itself, that testament reveals the secrets that will make possible bring back him from the Underworld, who would be happy to redeem his past mistakes by helping the new Horde to defeat the Burning Legion, not for nothing, Gul'dan, the Darkness Incarnate, was an important member of the Burning Legion, and his own knowledge about it is vast and extensive ... and that knowledge can be very valuable for the coming war...

But who would dare to find the skull of Gul'dan?, who would find the legacy of Gul'dan in the Broken Islands?, who will go down to the Underworld to bring him back?, will Gul'dan show loyalty to the new Horde when he returns?, can be restored the Shadow Council under the supervision of the Horde?, how would react the Alliance? ...

Many questions ... too many...

Wait, what lore states Gul'dan repented at all? I need to go read that.

[Stormspellz]

Strange isn't it. The only races who arguably fought actively against the burning legion for a long time were the high elves and humans of Dalaran, since they created the order of Tirisfal, to battle against the demons and protect their world. Though the Night elves battled the remnants of the Legion on Kalimdor, the war of the Satyr comes to mind.

the legion invaded and warped the spacegoats for far longer, not to mention the demons were first fought by the night elves and the ancients on azeroth. The order of tirisfal was more akin to cia counter terrorist group

[TheDangerZone]

The light is a magic ability given to azeroth by the naaru, Elune herself has been theroized to be a naaru.

The elementals are magic beings who are very mortal in their respective planes.

Nothing here says gods, just magic.

Yeah but then you go down the "what's the measure of a god" rabbit hole. And you'd be dealing with atheism and agnostisism; and if blizzard can even write constant characterization or a night elf that is not an ineffectual dunce, what are the chances of pulling that off?

A deist universe seems like less of a hassle tbh

[Northem]

Wait, what lore states Gul'dan repented at all? I need to go read that.

Gul'dan cast open the doors and entered. He did not however find the godhood he was hoping for. When Gul'dan entered the Tomb, he was maimed by the guardian demons: he was torn to shreds by a swarm of insane demons that they had unleashed when the tomb was opened.
The remainder of his clans were slaughtered by Doomhammer's retaliation. In those last moments, Gul'dan realized he had just been a pawn, that Sargeras had fooled him into doing his dirty work. Gul'dan's memories survived within the warlock magic of his skull and the runes he painted on the walls of the Tomb.

[TheDangerZone]

Gul'dan cast open the doors and entered. He did not however find the godhood he was hoping for. When Gul'dan entered the Tomb, he was maimed by the guardian demons: he was torn to shreds by a swarm of insane demons that they had unleashed when the tomb was opened.
The remainder of his clans were slaughtered by Doomhammer's retaliation. In those last moments, Gul'dan realized he had just been a pawn, that Sargeras had fooled him into doing his dirty work. Gul'dan's memories survived within the warlock magic of his skull and the runes he painted on the walls of the Tomb.

But is that really "repentance" or just a "I've been duped!!" moment?

[Northem]

But is that really "repentance" or just a "I've been duped!!" moment?

Actually it will be what Blizzard wants ... but to be honest, the return of a repentant Gul'dan at the service of the Horde would be very juicy (narratively speaking).

In this way the Horde would recover a former hero ... and Blizzard would not have to neutralize the heroes of the Alliance for the love of God! (see Alleria and/or Turalyon)

[Sandrox]

Actually it will be what Blizzard wants ... but to be honest, the return of a repentant Gul'dan at the service of the Horde would be very juicy (narratively speaking).

In this way the Horde would recover a former hero ... and Blizzard would not have to neutralize the heroes of the Alliance for the love of God! (see Alleria and/or Turalyon)

If they were going to bring back Gul'dan somehow, I would prefer it as a boss. He would make a perfect boss.

[Deleted]

If they were going to bring back Gul'dan somehow, I would prefer it as a boss. He would make a perfect boss.

The game really dosen't have any respectable Warlock Heroes.
ALmolst every other class has respected heroes. Warlock is kinda left out IMO.
Not that it matters. Warlocks like staying in the shadows, manipulating the forces of the nether. I don't know if they would like being in the spotlight.

[Florena]

But is that really "repentance" or just a "I've been duped!!" moment?

Yeah, nothing in there suggests he repented at all. If anything, the evil nature of his skull suggests otherwise.

---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 02:58 PM ----------

The game really dosen't have any respectable Warlock Heroes.
ALmolst every other class has respected heroes. Warlock is kinda left out IMO.
Not that it matters. Warlocks like staying in the shadows, manipulating the forces of the nether. I don't know if they would like being in the spotlight.

Well they did introduce the Black harvest now. It's a start, and I'd rather they run with those characters than try and redeem Gul'dan.

[Deleted]

I actually think blood in the snow was handled well. Sure, Varian plays a role, but despite what Cho says, whta brought the clans together was Moira stepping up and taking the risk to defend their homes rather than letting distrust and suspicion of the other clans cloud her judgement, and because of this the dwarves come out of it stronger as a whole.

yes, the dwarf one was handled ok, it was the dwarves that did most of the stuff and Varian learned something along with the Wildhammers and the Bronzebeards.

[ChocoboRanger]

Where is it stated that the people of Azeroth got the Light from the Naaru?[COLOR="red"]

---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 01:00 PM ----------
.

Primarily speculation. http://wow.joystiq.com/2010/05/01/kn...ne-is-a-naaru/ sums it up nicely. But even the wowpedia entry states that the Silver Hand in wc1 used to call it (the light) "god" but it fell out of favor as such they don't seem to believe in deities anymore (even outside the fact the order no longer exists).

[Alfryd]

I actually think blood in the snow was handled well. Sure, Varian plays a role, but despite what Cho says, whta brought the clans together was Moira stepping up and taking the risk to defend their homes rather than letting distrust and suspicion of the other clans cloud her judgement, and because of this the dwarves come out of it stronger as a whole.

Was that before or after Varian invaded Ironforge with an army, locked down the entire city and demanded the stakes to the Dwarves, all because his son was caught in the crossfire?

I still, to this day, find that an irredeemable mistake from Blizzard. Dwarves are their *own* nation. To compare, what do you think if x nation (lets say America) invaded y nation (lets say UK) simply because it didn't like it's leader? A real fucking war would break out haha. I don't see how ANY Dwarf in-game would be ok with it. >.>

[Solzan Nemesis]

They had one to begin with?

[bufferunderrun]

a good version of gul'dan would be the worst retcon in the entire warcraft story, that guy was responsible of nearly any bad thing since the demons discovered the orcs on draenor till thrall rise to warchief.

[Flaks]

I think Stormwind should've embraced an inquisitorial style of worship as the war went on, kinda like Scarlet Crusade, perhaps even some of its former members being notable figures. Orcs got darker along with Blackrocks, Dragonmaw and a Warsong Warchief too.

The storyline would have been all the more epic if there was descent in both factions. Where Ironforge could finally come back into the rough and some overzealous Dwarven forces being at work and the Alliance helping to break Bronzebeard out of his curse while the Horde worked at overthrowing Garrosh.

We could then end up with a council of leaders for both or either the Horde or the Alliance. Anyways the ALLIANCE should have a council of leaders; none of this high king bullshit. Varian is slowly but surely becoming Cata-Thrall for the Alliance.

See how Thrall not getting shoe-horned into everything is allowing for the development of Vol'jin and Loth'remar. Meanwhile Varian getting thrown into every aspect of Alliance quests is making Tyrande look like even more of a pansy and the Dwarves as spineless.