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  1. #41
    I'd raid 20 hours a day and still be average. Theres a lot more to factor in than time.

    It's a stupid OP.

  2. #42

  3. #43
    Mechagnome
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    Were in top20 guild in world (25man) in last content and we raided 6~ hours 5days a week depending how people could raid.

  4. #44
    Saying guilds are multiple bosses ahead in progression is a cop-out by people behind them. Far too many ppl that play WoW or other web games think they are amazing or far better then they are for no reason then their own delusions of grandeur. Do they play more maybe is that the only reason they are much farther no.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure Paragon sucks at the game, and the only reason they get world first kills is by playing longer than other guilds.

    I wonder if these people even think about what they're posting anymore

  6. #46
    Terrible idea... The guild who is the most skilled, and the most willing to kill the boss should get the kill, and that is how it works currently

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Minky View Post
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure Paragon sucks at the game, and the only reason they get world first kills is by playing longer than other guilds.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

  8. #48
    Herald of the Titans Aqua's Avatar
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    The truly dedicated would find ways around this system.

    Agreed that given more hours to waste I could probably apply to a top 100 guild, or if those hours were TRULY limited then I could do the same. But I don't. And I don't need to bend what they do to suit my schedule and lifestyle. I just can't do it, I have other priorities besides WoW raiding, I respect what the top guilds manage to do, but I'm at the moment not even suited to continue casual raiding. It's a big part of the day.

    They would create more accounts, slowly realize that the limitation is only really scamming them out of money, WoW's raiding population would decline and have nothing to aspire to, it would be a cute timewaster at best. Part of the reason raiding has become such an iconic feature of WoW is it's open and competitive scene. You only need to look at the world first videos on youtube to see the furvor they provoke. Other games have these limitations or impossible hoop jumping scenarios to access their end games to spread the shit out longer and you know what? No one wants to continue doing them for long and they die off. The subscription and your time is the only entry that should be needed. More of that time pumps out (usually) more results. That's a comfort blanket for many. Don't mess with it.

    Blizzard should not be a police of the time you spend in their game. The limited attempts were considered a bad idea for a reason. Alaglon not withstanding (being a hard as balls dps to the wall encounter and a 'optional' it was a part of his gimmick)
    Quote Originally Posted by savutitus View Post
    Yeah, it's always WAR WAR WAR untill..BY ALL THAT IS HOLY DO YOU SEE THAT ENEMY OVER THERE?? GLORIOUS LOOT!!!!!

  9. #49
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    Saying guilds are multiple bosses ahead in progression is a cop-out by people behind them. Far too many ppl that play WoW or other web games think they are amazing or far better then they are for no reason then their own delusions of grandeur. Do they play more maybe is that the only reason they are much farther no.
    One thing I've run into is a LOT of raiders in semi-casual guilds are really really good. Having seeing the quality of people getting into top 20-50 guilds (including lots of log analysis, and app reading) I can say that I know of at least 5 people I currently raid with on any of my toons that could get into a top 20-75 guild easy, but don't want to put in the time or effort to be top 10/25/50/100 or whatever. Other's prefer to raid with their pals. So just because someone isn't progressed doesn't mean its a "delusion of grandeur". It may be, but you can't just blow it off by saying this.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-03-15 at 08:08 AM.

  10. #50
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Short answer: No
    Long answer NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    People have raged over limited attempts, gating, attunment, resistance fights. Hell, they now raged against the attempt limit that will be on one of the last heroic only bosses.

    Let Method, Paragon and who ever raid 24 hrs 7 days a week to go 13/13 - I swear the guild of Average Joe will spend A LOT more time over the next 6 months trying to go 13/13 HM and not even get close
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  11. #51
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Here we go again with people feeling they deserve the chance to be the "best" without having to do anything for it... did you by any chance cry to your parents when Bowser killed you and they complained to Nintendo? No!
    Stop being a crybaby ffs!

    Time/investment = reward/profit.

    It's one of the things the world works around, you can't tell the smart kid in class to study less so the other kids don't feel stupid...
    Same as you don't tell hardcore raiders to raid less so people without the time can join in the race.


    Honestly this sort of attitude is why games the past 4-5 years have gone to hell, people thinking they should get it all because they pay? Fuck that, if that's ever going to happen it'll destroy everything competative about that game!

  12. #52
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Short answer: No
    Long answer NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    People have raged over limited attempts, gating, attunment, resistance fights. Hell, they now raged against the attempt limit that will be on one of the last heroic only bosses.

    Let Method, Paragon and who ever raid 24 hrs 7 days a week to go 13/13 - I swear the guild of Average Joe will spend A LOT more time over the next 6 months trying to go 13/13 HM and not even get close
    Perhaps, but consider that Paragon will most likely spend far far more time outside of raiding preparing for raid. From things like dailies to PTR testing to theorycrafting to detailed strategy and planning.

  13. #53
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Right. Let us say for the sake of argument that Method and Paragon (EU guilds have raided all of wednesday and tuesday..that is 48 hrs to get to 8/13). Funnily Apophasis, a US guild, who coukld have raided 72 hours is "only 3/13". But you know sth. that we don't know how much time these guilds spend in raiding?

    Now under that assumption of Paragon getting 8/13 in 48 hrs...how about you sit down with your guild, total the time you spend and show us how you get to 8/13 faster. Because honestly if it is YOUR SKILL, you should go to 8/13 in..say....40 hrs? Spread it over 3 weeks, I don't care, but you are telling me your guild can down every HM boss with less time invested than these folks?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  14. #54
    A bad guild can raid 23 hours a day and still lose to a good guild raiding half that.

    It's a combination of both, at least with regards to the top, say, 75 guilds.

    Locking content is retarded. Let people play as much or as little as they want, there are guilds that cater to every play schedule. If you don't have the time to commit to compete with the guilds that do, then that's your misfortune.

  15. #55
    Time investment > Skill
    You do know that the people doing world first dont have Guides.

  16. #56
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Perhaps, but consider that Paragon will most likely spend far far more time outside of raiding preparing for raid. From things like dailies to PTR testing to theorycrafting to detailed strategy and planning.
    Well, one thing I am sure of, is they couldn't spend more time one dailies, because they cleared T14 HMs in the second week. That is barely time to get 2000 valor and that might just about buy you a cloak, bracers or a belt..and then I am not even sure you could get the rep needed to buy them.

    They certainly couldn't get huge rep with any of the new factions...and then there is pretty much only the ilv 522 shado pan assault neck that everyone can get at neutral. All their other gear pretty much trash vendor and rep gear.

    PTR...as far as I am aware, Blizzard posted windows for every boss when they can be tested. But I admit I know not much about the ptr. Are bosses up ALL the time? and ALL the time accessible in HM? I doubt that, I even doubt the ptr is up all the time. Ptr is buggy and encounters are usually buggy.

    As to the theorycrafting, I can say nothing.

    Again: These HMs are out 2-3 days. Anybody who tries to convince us that these guys are a bunch of skilless nabs who just sink in crazy amounts of time is delusional in my eyes.

    We had people whining here how Horridon normal is overtuned. These guys did T14 HMs in an ilv where others wipe on normal or even LFraid. The Top 100 is 2/12 HM. The Top 20 is 3/13 HM and then there are three guilds at 8/13 HM. face it folks..these guys are the Messi of raiding. These guys are in a skill league of their own. They are even faaaaaaaaaaarrrrr off from any Top 10 guild.

    And there is nothing bad in admitting that. It is rather pathetic to sit here and downplay it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    One thing I've run into is a LOT of raiders in semi-casual guilds are really really good. Having seeing the quality of people getting into top 20-50 guilds (including lots of log analysis, and app reading) I can say that I know of at least 5 people I currently raid with on any of my toons that could get into a top 20-75 guild easy, but don't want to put in the time or effort to be top 10/25/50/100 or whatever. Other's prefer to raid with their pals. So just because someone isn't progressed doesn't mean its a "delusion of grandeur". It may be, but you can't just blow it off by saying this.

    I'm not saying the only good players are in the top raids. There are plenty of good players floating around out there that don't want to or can't do hardcore endgame stuff and it has nothing to do with skill. The rare few that raid a night or two out of the week are well progressed and parse on fights could probably make the cut. The flip side of that and the ppl I was talking about are the ones that don't raid or do it so poorly it shouldn't count, then discount the fact they wipe 100 times per 1st kill in normals and try to act like they are or would be great with more time spent raiding. Somewhat like the mindset that anybody worse then me is a scrub but anybody better is a no life hardcore loser.
    Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before... He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. -Kurt Vonnegut, "Cat's Cradle"
    "Not everything on the internet is true." -- Abraham Lincoln
    Good is the enemy of great.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    I've seen this topic thrown around a lot recently so I have a possible solution that I would like to share. What if blizzard limits guilds and player accounts to 7 - 9 hours of raiding a day, with lets say four 10 minute periods to stop the clock for breaks.

    Benefits:
    - A more competitive race for guilds who are willing to put in the effort but can't devote ridiculous hours a day to raiding.
    - Less physical and mental exhaustion
    - More focus on effective strategy, execution, efficiency, skill what have you rather than time investment
    - Reduced player burnout
    - Reduced incentive to do multiple alt runs
    - Bosses will last longer

    If you can list any negative repercussions to this idea please share.
    Wouldn't do anything.

    Guilds like Blood Legion already have alts just as geared as their mains on 2nd and 3rd accounts. They would simply log on those when blizzard kicked them off after 9 hours of raiding.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Jacob6875 <=== Check out my Youtube Channel !!

  19. #59
    World firsts;

    50% Time investment
    35% Skill
    10% Leadership
    5% RNG

    Of course those numbers vary from fight to fight.

  20. #60

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