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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Lol, what a joke. I'm sorry but there's plenty of aweful or even average players that could commit to their schedule and aren't going to get anywhere near those guilds. Looks like your just kidding yourself out of bitterness.

    Yes time is a factor, but so is countless hours of practice and theorycrafting, PTR testing, in short, dedication and efforts lead to a high level of play if you have the potential for it, and thats far from something that anyone can do no matter how much time they have.

    To the OP : No. People are and should be free to play however they want.

    I'm nowhere close to play at their level nor would i even want to and i didn't really care for the world first race since Firelands but i still find hilarious how much people try to hate on those guilds and downplay what they do. Guess jealousy and bitterness are common human traits.

  2. #62
    I have my own thoughts about top progression guilds and how idiotic I find them to be (it's a game... is it really a game to you anymore when you spend every waking moment attempting to brute force something?), but limiting them is almost dumber. Let them play how they want to. Let us play how we want to.

    And before accusing me of being a *gasp* casual, I raid 11-14 hours a week.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    I have my own thoughts about top progression guilds and how idiotic I find them to be (it's a game... is it really a game to you anymore when you spend every waking moment attempting to brute force something?), but limiting them is almost dumber. Let them play how they want to. Let us play how we want to.

    And before accusing me of being a *gasp* casual, I raid 11-14 hours a week.
    Are professional athletes idiots too? Spend much more training and training basing their entire lifestyles on it in hope of becoming better in a...game? Its the same principle.

    I just don't get it, as soon as we start talking about video games concepts like dedication and efforts suddently become bad things? People are free to do whatever they want, in the end nobody will remember you or whatever you did in your life, no matter who you are you will end as a pile of dust in tombstone anyway so might as well enjoy your existence while you can right? If thats what they enjoy whats the problem?

    As far as i'm concerned anyone that can dedicate themselves as much as they do to ANYTHING deserve full credits for it.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergal View Post
    Are professional athletes idiots too? Spend much more training and training basing their entire lifestyles on it in hope of becoming better in a...game? Its the same principle.

    I just don't get it, as soon as we start talking about video games concepts like dedication and efforts suddently become bad things? People are free to do whatever they want, in the end nobody will remember you or whatever you did in your life, no matter who you are you will end as a pile of dust in tombstone anyway so might as well enjoy your existence while you can right? If thats what they enjoy whats the problem?

    As far as i'm concerned anyone that can dedicate themselves as much as they do to ANYTHING deserve full credits for it.
    Talk to me when you get paid to play wow. I feel like the people that dedicate weeks of their lives to nothing but wow are obviously driven people that could, you know, actually make something of that time besides "Look guys! I got the 3rd US kill on Lei Shen" or something. My main point, which got lost somewhere, was basically how people can find pulling a boss, dying, running back, pulling, dying, etc. enjoyable for more than a few hours at a time.

    To each his own.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Completely related to this guy's post http://youtu.be/n7VAhzPcZ-s?t=2m58s

  6. #66
    Why don't you let people play the game however they want to play it

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    Talk to me when you get paid to play wow. I feel like the people that dedicate weeks of their lives to nothing but wow are obviously driven people that could, you know, actually make something of that time besides "Look guys! I got the 3rd US kill on Lei Shen" or something. My main point, which got lost somewhere, was basically how people can find pulling a boss, dying, running back, pulling, dying, etc. enjoyable for more than a few hours at a time.

    To each his own.
    So money is where its at for you? What will you do with all that money once you're dead? Perhaps it seems like an absurd way to think in our capitalist society driven solely by consumption but money isn't the end of all things for everyone.

    How they do it is called dedication and a will to improve, you think they do exactly the same thing every single pull? If they did, i'd agree with you, it would be a complete waste of time, but each pull is another chance at playing better, trying new strats or just overall improving on a personal or team level. If all you look at is the end result (dying) yeah it sucks, but thats not i'm sure how those guys see it.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    Talk to me when you get paid to play wow. I feel like the people that dedicate weeks of their lives to nothing but wow are obviously driven people that could, you know, actually make something of that time besides "Look guys! I got the 3rd US kill on Lei Shen" or something. My main point, which got lost somewhere, was basically how people can find pulling a boss, dying, running back, pulling, dying, etc. enjoyable for more than a few hours at a time.

    To each his own.
    Why do people find 20 guys trying to get a ball for and hour and a half exciting? And yet it is the most popular sport today.

    People also weren't paid in the past for just being fastest or jumping the highest. Now, there's billions of dollars in every sport.

    While we are at it, people do get paid to play WoW. People get paid to play CoD, LoL, SC, it literally is the the same thing. You spend more time, you get better at it. It's somewhat a general rule. Except, for some reason, society likes judge gamers solely on the fact that they play games.

    People are extremely short-sighted. Video-games will become more a lot popular in the future, and they'll attract more and more sponsors and money. It's hard to expect for an e-sport to reach the heights of a regular sport but I am willing to bet that large amount of players will make a living for just being the best.

    on topic: i don't think it's time-investment > skill

    Blood Legion loses every single tier to european guilds which are in disadvantage at the very start because of the time difference.
    There are a ton of guilds that raid as much as I do and are nowhere near my progression, but on the other hand there are some that raid less and have cleared more.

  9. #69
    Brewmaster Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Not true, the bosses are 5 times harder now than they will be when you ever get to them, due to lower gear, less info out, etc. It's both time AND skill.

  10. #70
    Not having been in one of those guilds, but I'd wager that a lot of their time is not spent on actual practice. I assume most of the time the top guilds are spending on progress is figuring out wtf is happening. Once they get the mechanics figured out, the strategy presents itself to them and then it's only a matter of executing it. My assumption is that the execution phase is probably the shortest. And that is where the theory of "time > skill" fails horribly. Sounds like someone who doesn't have a clue about playing an encounter without a guide on his lap. And also limitations won't solve that scenario, because top guilds would easily use alts to figure out the strategy and end up executing it with their mains once they feel sure. We've seen that in ICC. Such a limited attempts lockout actually led to a bigger gap between top guilds and everyone else, because nobody but the most dedicated will put that much effort into it. It would have the exact opposite effect of what the OP is hoping to achieve.

    Fun fact: The top 50 guilds actually spend a lot less time on raiding with their mains than almost anyone that comes after them.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    I have my own thoughts about top progression guilds and how idiotic I find them to be (it's a game... is it really a game to you anymore when you spend every waking moment attempting to brute force something?), but limiting them is almost dumber. Let them play how they want to. Let us play how we want to.

    And before accusing me of being a *gasp* casual, I raid 11-14 hours a week.
    +
    Talk to me when you get paid to play wow
    I sincerely hope you're getting paid for those 14 hours a week. Because putting those precious hours in order to get 3/12 NM would be quite embarassaing if it was not "WORTHY"
    .....OR you might just enjoy yourself in a GAME ?! Just like the guys from Paragon/Exodus/Method. So the "get paid or you're are stupid" nonsense can stop already ?

    Can't believe people can be so intolerant.
    I see no difference between you playing 14 hours to kill 3 bosses on normal mode, and Paragon playing 40+ hours to get World First Heroic Mode.
    Pleasure is all it's at.

  12. #72
    This has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. Wanna lose more subs ?? Better cap play time wooooo !! ¬.¬

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Yhal View Post
    +


    I sincerely hope you're getting paid for those 14 hours a week. Because putting those precious hours in order to get 3/12 NM would be quite embarassaing if it was not "WORTHY"
    .....OR you might just enjoy yourself in a GAME ?! Just like the guys from Paragon/Exodus/Method. So the "get paid or you're are stupid" nonsense can stop already ?

    Can't believe people can be so intolerant.
    I see no difference between you playing 14 hours to kill 3 bosses on normal mode, and Paragon playing 40+ hours to get World First Heroic Mode.
    Pleasure is all it's at.
    Missing the point is apparently your specialty. I have no problem with people willing to spend 12 consecutive hours raiding and bashing their heads into a wall. I like progression raiding myself, but even still, there's a point where I don't see how doing something over and over again to brute force an encounter is "fun". I logged some ridiculous number of pulls on heroic spine and I began to resent raid times coming. How is that a game anymore?

    In case you miss the point again... PROGRESSION RAID GOOD. BASH HEAD INTO WALL BAD. ME NO THINK IT WORK.

  14. #74
    When you bash your head against a wall, you should probably ask your raidleader to stop and think where the mistakes are. Not every approach to a strategy fits every group.

  15. #75
    Anyone who believes that the guys in top guilds like Method, BL or Paragon aren't both as good as it gets skill wise AND willing to dedicate huge amounts of time is delusional. You have to give them a lot of credit, they set an outrageously challenging goal that takes complete mental focus for 1-3 weeks and in the end there's a winner. It's funny to think average players genuinely believe that if Method were only raiding 4 nights a week their 2000 ranked guild would compete with them. It's why we read class guides on method or paragon's websites. They're the guys busting their balls on the PTR at 4 AM checking stat weights for an upcoming patch. If 99% of the raiding world was presented with a fresh set of patch notes and had to deduce what the best stat priorities, ability priorities and gear were for their given spec they wouldn't have a damned clue where to begin (neither would I).

  16. #76
    Brewmaster juzalol's Avatar
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    It's more like:

    Skill * Time Invested = Results

    So obviously when you are reaching the top end of the skill chart the way you
    get an advantage over other guilds is by investing more time.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    Talk to me when you get paid to play wow. I feel like the people that dedicate weeks of their lives to nothing but wow are obviously driven people that could, you know, actually make something of that time besides "Look guys! I got the 3rd US kill on Lei Shen" or something. My main point, which got lost somewhere, was basically how people can find pulling a boss, dying, running back, pulling, dying, etc. enjoyable for more than a few hours at a time.

    To each his own.
    You do know that quit a few of the top world guilds have endorsements right? Get paid trips for Blizzard events, free ventrillo services, web services etc etc. All you really need to do is go to a few of the consistent top world guild sites and you'll see names like ASUS, Steelseries, Nvidea, Origin etc etc. So there is a lot more on the line for those guilds than the "woohoo i got world 2nd".

    I also would bet money that most people that are "raiders" couldnt even make the bench for a lot of those guilds.

  18. #78
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gsara View Post
    You do know that quit a few of the top world guilds have endorsements right? Get paid trips for Blizzard events, free ventrillo services, web services etc etc. All you really need to do is go to a few of the consistent top world guild sites and you'll see names like ASUS, Steelseries, Nvidea, Origin etc etc. So there is a lot more on the line for those guilds than the "woohoo i got world 2nd".

    I also would bet money that most people that are "raiders" couldnt even make the bench for a lot of those guilds.
    There's maybe a handfull of people in the world that gets paid a full time job for raiding at top level, some of them do for sure but they also stream a lot, manage websites and sponsorship etc. If you think that the entire raid team of Method, Blood Legion, Paragon, Exodus and the rest gets paid you're so far off the truth it's not even funny.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Gsara View Post
    You do know that quit a few of the top world guilds have endorsements right? Get paid trips for Blizzard events, free ventrillo services, web services etc etc. All you really need to do is go to a few of the consistent top world guild sites and you'll see names like ASUS, Steelseries, Nvidea, Origin etc etc. So there is a lot more on the line for those guilds than the "woohoo i got world 2nd".

    I also would bet money that most people that are "raiders" couldnt even make the bench for a lot of those guilds.
    Somehow I doubt the average "grunt" sees any endorsement money even if they're in BL or whatever.

    And I'm not arguing that those people aren't skilled. They're objectively better than me at this game. They're objectively some of the best IN the game. That's probably why then spend 3x more time raiding than a normal person. I don't really think time = skill or time > skill. I just think that people that value time over skill in this game aren't particularly sane.

  20. #80
    I think the suggestion that skill and time invested are independent is flawed. While people obviously have different levels of innate ability no-one starts playing this game at a world first level. Those who end up at the top get there by putting in the hours, this is true about pretty much anything humans choose to do. As Einstein said "genius is 99% perspiration".

    Attempting to separate effort and skill is a fairly negative thing to do as it encourages us to not put in any effort to improve by enforcing the fallacy that you either have the ability or you don't. While it is clearly impossible to compete with world first guilds without putting in the time they put in I would suggest that putting in that time is what makes the already exceptional players in those guilds reach levels higher than the players in lesser guilds.

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