I agree with the skill/time correlation.
I just dislike when people start judging others just to feel better about themselves.
How do you draw a line between "progression" and "bash head into walls" ?! Short answer is: you don't draw that line for other people. To each its own.
I highly value this "progression per time spent" but I respect the choice of others to put the balance in a different way than I do. And everybody should do just that instead of doing cheap analysis about sanity/dedication and whatnot.
Back to topic: no amount of time would allow me to reach the level of play of those guys. Everytime I kill an endboss on heroic mode and I compare [the time spent on it]/[nerfs]/[gear]/[strategies already done] that I have to what the best guilds in the world had when they killed said boss...I stop kidding myself. Time is just a factor and not the biggest one imo. Paragon killed Jin Rokh, Ji-Kun and Tortos on Heroic mode in less than 1 hour each ? Let's see how long it will take us to do the same
DuhHardcore Raiding: Time investment > Skill
There are many people who have played on those teams, at that level, but no longer have the time because of family, career, or whatever the reason. There are also many highly skilled players who just didn't have the time available to invest from the start but to say they are not as skilled as the new teams and previous bench-warmers? That's just a stupid assumption and comes from the lack of understanding hardcore raiding.
That being said, I disagree with the OP about limiting playtime. Although it would be nice to be on an even playing field so skill would win over time spent, but it would really ruin the whole atmosphere of hardcore raiding.
Those good players with unlimited time to put in will always be members of the top teams over the most skilled players in the world (with less time available). The same goes for new tiers. Those guilds that have a 15+ ilvl advantage will blow through the content so much faster and it isn't possible for a team with even the most skilled players ever assembled to compete with them. Next you're going to ask that everyone be the same ilvl every new tier so it's fair. It shouldn't be "fair" they spend the extra time, they receive the extra reward of being ahead.
Think about this, who would you want pushing a world first with? Player A, a guy who always tops the charts, never steps in poop but can't make 1/4 of the time requirements, or Player B, a guy who does a little bit less on the charts, steps in poop every once in a while, but is able to be there every second of every raid and has extra time to spare to devote to the guild? Both are highly skilled players, Player A is obviously a better player, but he cannot be part of the team because he cannot make the time requirements.
At the end of the day Time > Skill in hardcore raiding. It always has, and it always will. That being said, there are no bads on those top teams, but there are also world class players playing on casual/semi-hardcore teams without the time to invest, burned out or lack of interest in playing at that level.
As a solution to the OP's Epeen dilemma, they could normalize your ilvl for LFR and you could try to rank with skill alone. That would be kinda fun.
Meh...that wouldn't work. For some people LFR is their raiding experience and why would they do it if the gear they get doesn't help them improve their character in that environment?
Last edited by DarthMetatron; 2013-03-15 at 01:56 PM.
It's time to level up and quit your newbie ways
You need to go outside and get some new V-rays
A fresh breath of air will help you talk again
Inhale, exhale, feel the Oxygen
If people want to play for long periods of time thats their choice. Skill is involved with all the top guilds and wiping is a part of progression, so if you can't invest the time needed you don't get the gear. Simple.
Skill is primarily a function of time and effort invested into something. Period.
Sure natural ability has an effect, but succeeding at something purely off "natural ability" is not something IMO to be proud of. I have more respect for people who achieve things in life through hard work and dedication. The reality is also that at the end of it, hard work and dedication have a far more significant impact on final outcome than raw natural ability.
Those people competing for world firsts have incredible skill. It is the result of all the time and effort they committed.
Most stupid idea ever.And its not like time investment>skill,getting world firsts requires huge amount of concenration,resistance for stress and coming up with the best tactics and execution as fast as possible.
I bet your idea is coming from the fact that you are semi hardcore raider,raiding like more or less 10-18 hours a week,jealous about world firsts and you consider yourself an awesome player.
I've seen players come from guilds where they would more often than not get rank 1 wol kills of their spec, being regarded as the best of their class on the server, going to top guilds where they cannot adjust because they are no longer the best of their class and cannot make it any longer to the top 10 of their DPS meter. It is really that bad. Trust me, you'd be surprised at how good these players are. I've on the other hand also seen really good players adapt to the hardcore schedule, and use the time efficiently to exercise until they cannot improve any further at their class.
By the way, you must be really ignorant if you think that guilds like Method doesn't consist of full A type of players already.
While not a bad idea per say.
You have to account for the $15 a month that we all pay for access. If certain guilds choose to burn out their players that's their right. We as a collective cannot dictate how much time other people should be spending in this game. Its all personal choice.
They also tried something like that in ICC if you remember where certain bosses had limited attempts. What ended up happening was that they created MORE of a time investment because top guilds were doing 2 or 3 alt runs to practice before they brought their mains in there. Those guilds then pretty much demanded that all of their players alts be up to their mains gear level.
In short, I think your heart is in the right place but putting this into practice is a lost cause. If people wanna burn themselves out we have no right to stop them. They pay the same $15 we do.
Last edited by jimlow; 2013-03-15 at 03:26 PM. Reason: spelling
I'm really not sure if this is a serious post. Most folks who have the level of familiarity with this game to make an OP like this also have a keen understanding of the fact that it rewards those who play the most.
The no-lifer gears out first.
The campers win the AH.
The guild with the most attempts usually wins server races.
That is the design intent of the game - to keep people driving and pushing themselves to login. So, listen up, all you semi-pros, the kid living in his mom's basement will, most of the time, beat you at this game. That's just a fact, and it shouldn't really be a big deal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
"Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."
I suppose the real question here is whether or not it is worth it. When you take a leisure activity to such an extreme, it seems to stop being a leisure activity. What is it about games like WoW that make people want to take things to the extreme? If the goal of the game is to get joy out of playing, than it is easy to see that most casuals are getting more units of enjoyment out of the game than those who play it as if it is a job.
Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
If trickle down economics is working, it's only because there is a damn leak somewhere! -The One Percent
I'm afraid limiting is plain pointless. We all know that hard core raiding is all about time (and knowing how to use it). Still, you simply cant do such thing because none would play the game, plain simple.
I never implied anything like that concerning Method and I would expect them to be mostly A type players, but we can't say it is 100% true since we don't raid with Method. Anyone in Method is going to say "yes we're the best ever", so will DREAM Paragon, but only one of them is right...and we know who that is
I find it funny that you speculate that it takes months to get back into game shape LOL. There are HUGE breaks between patches!!! Even players who stopped raiding hardcore don't take months to get back into game shape unless they stopped playing the game for long periods of time and haven't kept up with class/content/mechanics.
Hardcore raiding is 90% mental, 10% execution.