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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    There's maybe a handfull of people in the world that gets paid a full time job for raiding at top level, some of them do for sure but they also stream a lot, manage websites and sponsorship etc. If you think that the entire raid team of Method, Blood Legion, Paragon, Exodus and the rest gets paid you're so far off the truth it's not even funny.
    No one suggested that every person shares in the spoils, I know for a fact its not like that.
    Last edited by Gsara; 2013-03-15 at 12:58 PM.

  2. #82
    I agree with the skill/time correlation.
    I just dislike when people start judging others just to feel better about themselves.
    How do you draw a line between "progression" and "bash head into walls" ?! Short answer is: you don't draw that line for other people. To each its own.
    I highly value this "progression per time spent" but I respect the choice of others to put the balance in a different way than I do. And everybody should do just that instead of doing cheap analysis about sanity/dedication and whatnot.

    Back to topic: no amount of time would allow me to reach the level of play of those guys. Everytime I kill an endboss on heroic mode and I compare [the time spent on it]/[nerfs]/[gear]/[strategies already done] that I have to what the best guilds in the world had when they killed said boss...I stop kidding myself. Time is just a factor and not the biggest one imo. Paragon killed Jin Rokh, Ji-Kun and Tortos on Heroic mode in less than 1 hour each ? Let's see how long it will take us to do the same

  3. #83
    Hardcore Raiding: Time investment > Skill
    Duh

    /nextthread

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    By stating time investment > skill you seem to assume that these aren't already some of the best players in the world in their respective field. Not only are they the ones getting the top ranks once all logs are made official and gear seems to be more equalized, but they are at the same time able to optimize their role for what is best for their team.
    Even then they have to be able to plan ahead of time regarding their gear choices (for fights that haven't been killed before, with specs they don't if they will be playing), seeing as they aren't able to get the theorycrafting done during progress, as those hours are used on killing bosses.

    And while that is said, these players also have to know about the meta game. They need to be able to strategize, and be able to perform a multitude of roles on several characters.

    Just because you think top guilds spends a hell of a time killing content, doesn't mean that players who play less would have a chance competing against them. This isnt only about being time efficient, but also about spending your time outside the game for both mentally preperation, but also being able to use tools outside the game to optimize your performance in the game.

    By they way, these players are extremely time efficient because of their preperation (even when you take into consideration that they are playing for many hours straight). Just look at their kill times. There are many good 3 days a week guilds, but even the best of these guilds aren't close to the time efficientcy of the world's best guilds, despite them actually having kill videos, time to theorycraft outside the game, and several weeks of loot drops in addition to what the fastest guilds had when they were doing the content.

    I honestly think your title is a bit ignorant, as if the world's best guilds aren't already the best players, at the top of their career. Not only is it the most dedicated and skilled players that gets the opportunity to play along with the very best, but even beyond that point they will put their whole mind and soul into becoming better at the game, because beyond that point it is where competetion starts to become real fun.

    If they don't like doing what they are doing, they will simply stop doing it. Hence you see many hardcore players quitting/going casual after every tier. Staying hardcore is not something that is made for everyone, but everyone should have the opportunity of doing so.
    By your statement, you assume only the people on those current top teams are the best players in the world and no one else could even be close in talent. That is complete garbage. You are a bad and you should feel bad for even thinking it.

    There are many people who have played on those teams, at that level, but no longer have the time because of family, career, or whatever the reason. There are also many highly skilled players who just didn't have the time available to invest from the start but to say they are not as skilled as the new teams and previous bench-warmers? That's just a stupid assumption and comes from the lack of understanding hardcore raiding.

    That being said, I disagree with the OP about limiting playtime. Although it would be nice to be on an even playing field so skill would win over time spent, but it would really ruin the whole atmosphere of hardcore raiding.

    Those good players with unlimited time to put in will always be members of the top teams over the most skilled players in the world (with less time available). The same goes for new tiers. Those guilds that have a 15+ ilvl advantage will blow through the content so much faster and it isn't possible for a team with even the most skilled players ever assembled to compete with them. Next you're going to ask that everyone be the same ilvl every new tier so it's fair. It shouldn't be "fair" they spend the extra time, they receive the extra reward of being ahead.

    Think about this, who would you want pushing a world first with? Player A, a guy who always tops the charts, never steps in poop but can't make 1/4 of the time requirements, or Player B, a guy who does a little bit less on the charts, steps in poop every once in a while, but is able to be there every second of every raid and has extra time to spare to devote to the guild? Both are highly skilled players, Player A is obviously a better player, but he cannot be part of the team because he cannot make the time requirements.

    At the end of the day Time > Skill in hardcore raiding. It always has, and it always will. That being said, there are no bads on those top teams, but there are also world class players playing on casual/semi-hardcore teams without the time to invest, burned out or lack of interest in playing at that level.
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  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Its actually their SKILL+time that gets world firsts. No amount of time is gonna get an unskilled player a world first.
    do what you feel.

  6. #86
    As a solution to the OP's Epeen dilemma, they could normalize your ilvl for LFR and you could try to rank with skill alone. That would be kinda fun.

    Meh...that wouldn't work. For some people LFR is their raiding experience and why would they do it if the gear they get doesn't help them improve their character in that environment?
    Last edited by DarthMetatron; 2013-03-15 at 01:56 PM.
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  7. #87
    Warchief marthsk's Avatar
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    Okay, so a 2-post OP chimes in and dictates how I should play?

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  8. #88
    If people want to play for long periods of time thats their choice. Skill is involved with all the top guilds and wiping is a part of progression, so if you can't invest the time needed you don't get the gear. Simple.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacepunch View Post
    Its actually their SKILL+time that gets world firsts. No amount of time is gonna get an unskilled player a world first.
    I certainly disagree with that 9/10 figure as well as at least 90% of wow subscribers fail even the easiest skill checks every time. That said - there isn't really a sky high skill cap in wow either at least not individually as mechanical requirements aren't exactly ridiculous.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    I've seen this topic thrown around a lot recently so I have a possible solution that I would like to share. What if blizzard limits guilds and player accounts to 7 - 9 hours of raiding a day, with lets say four 10 minute periods to stop the clock for breaks.

    Benefits:
    - A more competitive race for guilds who are willing to put in the effort but can't devote ridiculous hours a day to raiding.
    (Then they aren't willing to put in the effort)
    - Less physical and mental exhaustion
    (People are different and can handle different levels of physical/mental stress)
    - More focus on effective strategy, execution, efficiency, skill what have you rather than time investment
    (Most serious raiders prepare beforehand anyways)
    - Reduced player burnout
    (Every person is different, and some may never burnout)
    - Reduced incentive to do multiple alt runs
    (If people want to runs alts, they should be able to and not penalized for enjoying the game)
    - Bosses will last longer
    (No they won't)

    If you can list any negative repercussions to this idea please share.
    Life is about Free Will. You can't take that away from people. Just like you can't tell marathon runners that they can only train 4 hours a day because the average joe can only train 4 hours a day. If you want to be the best, sacrifices will be made.

  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masith View Post
    I think the suggestion that skill and time invested are independent is flawed. While people obviously have different levels of innate ability no-one starts playing this game at a world first level. Those who end up at the top get there by putting in the hours, this is true about pretty much anything humans choose to do. As Einstein said "genius is 99% perspiration".

    Attempting to separate effort and skill is a fairly negative thing to do as it encourages us to not put in any effort to improve by enforcing the fallacy that you either have the ability or you don't. While it is clearly impossible to compete with world first guilds without putting in the time they put in I would suggest that putting in that time is what makes the already exceptional players in those guilds reach levels higher than the players in lesser guilds.
    What amazes me is that it took 80 posts for this to come up.

    Skill is primarily a function of time and effort invested into something. Period.

    Sure natural ability has an effect, but succeeding at something purely off "natural ability" is not something IMO to be proud of. I have more respect for people who achieve things in life through hard work and dedication. The reality is also that at the end of it, hard work and dedication have a far more significant impact on final outcome than raw natural ability.

    Those people competing for world firsts have incredible skill. It is the result of all the time and effort they committed.

  12. #92
    Most stupid idea ever.And its not like time investment>skill,getting world firsts requires huge amount of concenration,resistance for stress and coming up with the best tactics and execution as fast as possible.

    I bet your idea is coming from the fact that you are semi hardcore raider,raiding like more or less 10-18 hours a week,jealous about world firsts and you consider yourself an awesome player.

  13. #93
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarthMetatron View Post
    By your statement, you assume only the people on those current top teams are the best players in the world and no one else could even be close in talent. That is complete garbage. You are a bad and you should feel bad for even thinking it.

    There are many people who have played on those teams, at that level, but no longer have the time because of family, career, or whatever the reason. There are also many highly skilled players who just didn't have the time available to invest from the start but to say they are not as skilled as the new teams and previous bench-warmers? That's just a stupid assumption and comes from the lack of understanding hardcore raiding.

    That being said, I disagree with the OP about limiting playtime. Although it would be nice to be on an even playing field so skill would win over time spent, but it would really ruin the whole atmosphere of hardcore raiding.

    Those good players with unlimited time to put in will always be members of the top teams over the most skilled players in the world (with less time available). The same goes for new tiers. Those guilds that have a 15+ ilvl advantage will blow through the content so much faster and it isn't possible for a team with even the most skilled players ever assembled to compete with them. Next you're going to ask that everyone be the same ilvl every new tier so it's fair. It shouldn't be "fair" they spend the extra time, they receive the extra reward of being ahead.

    Think about this, who would you want pushing a world first with? Player A, a guy who always tops the charts, never steps in poop but can't make 1/4 of the time requirements, or Player B, a guy who does a little bit less on the charts, steps in poop every once in a while, but is able to be there every second of every raid and has extra time to spare to devote to the guild? Both are highly skilled players, Player A is obviously a better player, but he cannot be part of the team because he cannot make the time requirements.

    At the end of the day Time > Skill in hardcore raiding. It always has, and it always will. That being said, there are no bads on those top teams, but there are also world class players playing on casual/semi-hardcore teams without the time to invest, burned out or lack of interest in playing at that level.
    The difference between a retired former extremely skilled player and a player playing in a top 3 world guild is that the player playing in the top 3 world guild is both extremely skilled and at the same time in such a good 'shape' that he cannot improve skill wise. That's the difference between those two players. It would take weeks if not months of raiding practice for a retired player to get in the same raiding shape as one playing in a top guild. Without having seen this you wouldn't be able to understand.
    I've seen players come from guilds where they would more often than not get rank 1 wol kills of their spec, being regarded as the best of their class on the server, going to top guilds where they cannot adjust because they are no longer the best of their class and cannot make it any longer to the top 10 of their DPS meter. It is really that bad. Trust me, you'd be surprised at how good these players are. I've on the other hand also seen really good players adapt to the hardcore schedule, and use the time efficiently to exercise until they cannot improve any further at their class.
    By the way, you must be really ignorant if you think that guilds like Method doesn't consist of full A type of players already.
    Last edited by Funkthepunk; 2013-03-15 at 03:19 PM.

  14. #94
    While not a bad idea per say.

    You have to account for the $15 a month that we all pay for access. If certain guilds choose to burn out their players that's their right. We as a collective cannot dictate how much time other people should be spending in this game. Its all personal choice.

    They also tried something like that in ICC if you remember where certain bosses had limited attempts. What ended up happening was that they created MORE of a time investment because top guilds were doing 2 or 3 alt runs to practice before they brought their mains in there. Those guilds then pretty much demanded that all of their players alts be up to their mains gear level.

    In short, I think your heart is in the right place but putting this into practice is a lost cause. If people wanna burn themselves out we have no right to stop them. They pay the same $15 we do.
    Last edited by jimlow; 2013-03-15 at 03:26 PM. Reason: spelling

  15. #95
    I'm really not sure if this is a serious post. Most folks who have the level of familiarity with this game to make an OP like this also have a keen understanding of the fact that it rewards those who play the most.

    The no-lifer gears out first.

    The campers win the AH.

    The guild with the most attempts usually wins server races.

    That is the design intent of the game - to keep people driving and pushing themselves to login. So, listen up, all you semi-pros, the kid living in his mom's basement will, most of the time, beat you at this game. That's just a fact, and it shouldn't really be a big deal.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    I've seen this topic thrown around a lot recently so I have a possible solution that I would like to share. What if blizzard limits guilds and player accounts to 7 - 9 hours of raiding a day, with lets say four 10 minute periods to stop the clock for breaks.

    Benefits:
    - A more competitive race for guilds who are willing to put in the effort but can't devote ridiculous hours a day to raiding.
    - Less physical and mental exhaustion
    - More focus on effective strategy, execution, efficiency, skill what have you rather than time investment
    - Reduced player burnout
    - Reduced incentive to do multiple alt runs
    - Bosses will last longer

    If you can list any negative repercussions to this idea please share.
    Not even close to being a good idea.

    We PAY to play this game. That means we should be able to decide how much time we want to raid, not them.

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  17. #97
    I suppose the real question here is whether or not it is worth it. When you take a leisure activity to such an extreme, it seems to stop being a leisure activity. What is it about games like WoW that make people want to take things to the extreme? If the goal of the game is to get joy out of playing, than it is easy to see that most casuals are getting more units of enjoyment out of the game than those who play it as if it is a job.
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  18. #98
    Scarab Lord shise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsz View Post
    This isn't communist China.
    China is this worlds capitalist monster, but I get your point and I back it up.

    I'm afraid limiting is plain pointless. We all know that hard core raiding is all about time (and knowing how to use it). Still, you simply cant do such thing because none would play the game, plain simple.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Spacepunch View Post
    Its actually their SKILL+time that gets world firsts. No amount of time is gonna get an unskilled player a world first.
    Let me expand on that. Two groups equal on skill level. One raids 2 days a week, one raids 5. The one that raids 5 will obviously be much higher ranked. Not because they are BETTER but because they put more HOURS in.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    The difference between a retired former extremely skilled player and a player playing in a top 3 world guild is that the player playing in the top 3 world guild is both extremely skilled and at the same time in such a good 'shape' that he cannot improve skill wise. That's the difference between those two players. It would take weeks if not months of raiding practice for a retired player to get in the same raiding shape as one playing in a top guild. Without having seen this you wouldn't be able to understand.
    I've seen players come from guilds where they would more often than not get rank 1 wol kills of their spec, being regarded as the best of their class on the server, going to top guilds where they cannot adjust because they are no longer the best of their class and cannot make it any longer to the top 10 of their DPS meter. It is really that bad. Trust me, you'd be surprised at how good these players are. I've on the other hand also seen really good players adapt to the hardcore schedule, and use the time efficiently to exercise until they cannot improve any further at their class.
    By the way, you must be really ignorant if you think that guilds like Method doesn't consist of full A type of players already.
    So much wrong information in one place at one time. I can tell you've never been there.

    I never implied anything like that concerning Method and I would expect them to be mostly A type players, but we can't say it is 100% true since we don't raid with Method. Anyone in Method is going to say "yes we're the best ever", so will DREAM Paragon, but only one of them is right...and we know who that is

    I find it funny that you speculate that it takes months to get back into game shape LOL. There are HUGE breaks between patches!!! Even players who stopped raiding hardcore don't take months to get back into game shape unless they stopped playing the game for long periods of time and haven't kept up with class/content/mechanics.

    Hardcore raiding is 90% mental, 10% execution.
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