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  1. #41
    Saying guilds are multiple bosses ahead in progression is a cop-out by people behind them. Far too many ppl that play WoW or other web games think they are amazing or far better then they are for no reason then their own delusions of grandeur. Do they play more maybe is that the only reason they are much farther no.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure Paragon sucks at the game, and the only reason they get world first kills is by playing longer than other guilds.

    I wonder if these people even think about what they're posting anymore

  3. #43
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    Terrible idea... The guild who is the most skilled, and the most willing to kill the boss should get the kill, and that is how it works currently

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minky View Post
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure Paragon sucks at the game, and the only reason they get world first kills is by playing longer than other guilds.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman

  5. #45
    The Lightbringer Aqua's Avatar
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    The truly dedicated would find ways around this system.

    Agreed that given more hours to waste I could probably apply to a top 100 guild, or if those hours were TRULY limited then I could do the same. But I don't. And I don't need to bend what they do to suit my schedule and lifestyle. I just can't do it, I have other priorities besides WoW raiding, I respect what the top guilds manage to do, but I'm at the moment not even suited to continue casual raiding. It's a big part of the day.

    They would create more accounts, slowly realize that the limitation is only really scamming them out of money, WoW's raiding population would decline and have nothing to aspire to, it would be a cute timewaster at best. Part of the reason raiding has become such an iconic feature of WoW is it's open and competitive scene. You only need to look at the world first videos on youtube to see the furvor they provoke. Other games have these limitations or impossible hoop jumping scenarios to access their end games to spread the shit out longer and you know what? No one wants to continue doing them for long and they die off. The subscription and your time is the only entry that should be needed. More of that time pumps out (usually) more results. That's a comfort blanket for many. Don't mess with it.

    Blizzard should not be a police of the time you spend in their game. The limited attempts were considered a bad idea for a reason. Alaglon not withstanding (being a hard as balls dps to the wall encounter and a 'optional' it was a part of his gimmick)
    I have eaten all the popcorn, I left none for anyone else.

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrven View Post
    Saying guilds are multiple bosses ahead in progression is a cop-out by people behind them. Far too many ppl that play WoW or other web games think they are amazing or far better then they are for no reason then their own delusions of grandeur. Do they play more maybe is that the only reason they are much farther no.
    One thing I've run into is a LOT of raiders in semi-casual guilds are really really good. Having seeing the quality of people getting into top 20-50 guilds (including lots of log analysis, and app reading) I can say that I know of at least 5 people I currently raid with on any of my toons that could get into a top 20-75 guild easy, but don't want to put in the time or effort to be top 10/25/50/100 or whatever. Other's prefer to raid with their pals. So just because someone isn't progressed doesn't mean its a "delusion of grandeur". It may be, but you can't just blow it off by saying this.
    Last edited by Darkfriend; 2013-03-15 at 08:08 AM.

  7. #47
    Here we go again with people feeling they deserve the chance to be the "best" without having to do anything for it... did you by any chance cry to your parents when Bowser killed you and they complained to Nintendo? No!
    Stop being a crybaby ffs!

    Time/investment = reward/profit.

    It's one of the things the world works around, you can't tell the smart kid in class to study less so the other kids don't feel stupid...
    Same as you don't tell hardcore raiders to raid less so people without the time can join in the race.


    Honestly this sort of attitude is why games the past 4-5 years have gone to hell, people thinking they should get it all because they pay? Fuck that, if that's ever going to happen it'll destroy everything competative about that game!

  8. #48
    The Lightbringer Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Short answer: No
    Long answer NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    People have raged over limited attempts, gating, attunment, resistance fights. Hell, they now raged against the attempt limit that will be on one of the last heroic only bosses.

    Let Method, Paragon and who ever raid 24 hrs 7 days a week to go 13/13 - I swear the guild of Average Joe will spend A LOT more time over the next 6 months trying to go 13/13 HM and not even get close
    Perhaps, but consider that Paragon will most likely spend far far more time outside of raiding preparing for raid. From things like dailies to PTR testing to theorycrafting to detailed strategy and planning.

  9. #49
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    A bad guild can raid 23 hours a day and still lose to a good guild raiding half that.

    It's a combination of both, at least with regards to the top, say, 75 guilds.

    Locking content is retarded. Let people play as much or as little as they want, there are guilds that cater to every play schedule. If you don't have the time to commit to compete with the guilds that do, then that's your misfortune.

  10. #50
    Time investment > Skill
    You do know that the people doing world first dont have Guides.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    One thing I've run into is a LOT of raiders in semi-casual guilds are really really good. Having seeing the quality of people getting into top 20-50 guilds (including lots of log analysis, and app reading) I can say that I know of at least 5 people I currently raid with on any of my toons that could get into a top 20-75 guild easy, but don't want to put in the time or effort to be top 10/25/50/100 or whatever. Other's prefer to raid with their pals. So just because someone isn't progressed doesn't mean its a "delusion of grandeur". It may be, but you can't just blow it off by saying this.

    I'm not saying the only good players are in the top raids. There are plenty of good players floating around out there that don't want to or can't do hardcore endgame stuff and it has nothing to do with skill. The rare few that raid a night or two out of the week are well progressed and parse on fights could probably make the cut. The flip side of that and the ppl I was talking about are the ones that don't raid or do it so poorly it shouldn't count, then discount the fact they wipe 100 times per 1st kill in normals and try to act like they are or would be great with more time spent raiding. Somewhat like the mindset that anybody worse then me is a scrub but anybody better is a no life hardcore loser.
    "Privilege is invisible to those who have it."

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    I've seen this topic thrown around a lot recently so I have a possible solution that I would like to share. What if blizzard limits guilds and player accounts to 7 - 9 hours of raiding a day, with lets say four 10 minute periods to stop the clock for breaks.

    Benefits:
    - A more competitive race for guilds who are willing to put in the effort but can't devote ridiculous hours a day to raiding.
    - Less physical and mental exhaustion
    - More focus on effective strategy, execution, efficiency, skill what have you rather than time investment
    - Reduced player burnout
    - Reduced incentive to do multiple alt runs
    - Bosses will last longer

    If you can list any negative repercussions to this idea please share.
    Wouldn't do anything.

    Guilds like Blood Legion already have alts just as geared as their mains on 2nd and 3rd accounts. They would simply log on those when blizzard kicked them off after 9 hours of raiding.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Jacob6875 <=== Check out my Youtube Channel !!

  13. #53
    Mechagnome Rixarius's Avatar
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    World firsts;

    50% Time investment
    35% Skill
    10% Leadership
    5% RNG

    Of course those numbers vary from fight to fight.

  14. #54
    Ra-Den says hi.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Lol, what a joke. I'm sorry but there's plenty of aweful or even average players that could commit to their schedule and aren't going to get anywhere near those guilds. Looks like your just kidding yourself out of bitterness.

    Yes time is a factor, but so is countless hours of practice and theorycrafting, PTR testing, in short, dedication and efforts lead to a high level of play if you have the potential for it, and thats far from something that anyone can do no matter how much time they have.

    To the OP : No. People are and should be free to play however they want.

    I'm nowhere close to play at their level nor would i even want to and i didn't really care for the world first race since Firelands but i still find hilarious how much people try to hate on those guilds and downplay what they do. Guess jealousy and bitterness are common human traits.

  16. #56
    I have my own thoughts about top progression guilds and how idiotic I find them to be (it's a game... is it really a game to you anymore when you spend every waking moment attempting to brute force something?), but limiting them is almost dumber. Let them play how they want to. Let us play how we want to.

    And before accusing me of being a *gasp* casual, I raid 11-14 hours a week.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Drikkink View Post
    I have my own thoughts about top progression guilds and how idiotic I find them to be (it's a game... is it really a game to you anymore when you spend every waking moment attempting to brute force something?), but limiting them is almost dumber. Let them play how they want to. Let us play how we want to.

    And before accusing me of being a *gasp* casual, I raid 11-14 hours a week.
    Are professional athletes idiots too? Spend much more training and training basing their entire lifestyles on it in hope of becoming better in a...game? Its the same principle.

    I just don't get it, as soon as we start talking about video games concepts like dedication and efforts suddently become bad things? People are free to do whatever they want, in the end nobody will remember you or whatever you did in your life, no matter who you are you will end as a pile of dust in tombstone anyway so might as well enjoy your existence while you can right? If thats what they enjoy whats the problem?

    As far as i'm concerned anyone that can dedicate themselves as much as they do to ANYTHING deserve full credits for it.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergal View Post
    Are professional athletes idiots too? Spend much more training and training basing their entire lifestyles on it in hope of becoming better in a...game? Its the same principle.

    I just don't get it, as soon as we start talking about video games concepts like dedication and efforts suddently become bad things? People are free to do whatever they want, in the end nobody will remember you or whatever you did in your life, no matter who you are you will end as a pile of dust in tombstone anyway so might as well enjoy your existence while you can right? If thats what they enjoy whats the problem?

    As far as i'm concerned anyone that can dedicate themselves as much as they do to ANYTHING deserve full credits for it.
    Talk to me when you get paid to play wow. I feel like the people that dedicate weeks of their lives to nothing but wow are obviously driven people that could, you know, actually make something of that time besides "Look guys! I got the 3rd US kill on Lei Shen" or something. My main point, which got lost somewhere, was basically how people can find pulling a boss, dying, running back, pulling, dying, etc. enjoyable for more than a few hours at a time.

    To each his own.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Completely related to this guy's post http://youtu.be/n7VAhzPcZ-s?t=2m58s

  20. #60
    Why don't you let people play the game however they want to play it

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