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  1. #101
    Typically these 'tryhard' guilds you speak of only spend alot of time in the 1st-2nd weeks of a raid tier, considering the real raid tier starts the week heroic modes start, then they spend less time clearing heroic modes than the average guild spends wiping to normal bosses. I have raided in everything from a top 15 US guild to casual guilds with irl friends and i spent far less time actually raiding in the higher ranked guild. This is of course based off recent raid tiers, huge time investment requirements into raids have been less and less common each expansion.
    Last edited by candidlol; 2013-03-15 at 07:45 PM.

  2. #102
    Skill > Time Investment.

    Most guilds nowadays seem to have a 2 or 3 day raid schedule per team, and the days of 6-8 hour raidnights have shrunk to 3-4 hour raidnights.

    Usually, if you can't get a boss down after 2 hours of wipes, another 2 hours isn't going to make a difference.

    Where it *does* make a difference is in the guilds where half the players fail, and RNG dictates that *eventually* all the planets will align and the one or two players that can do the mechanics will be the ones chosen each time.

  3. #103
    If you're talking about >real< hardcore raiding, it is skill>time all the way.
    If you're talking about some random guilds in between hardcore guilds and casuals then it can be time>skill sometimes.

    > real < hardcore guilds raid way less than many of the in-between guilds that would kill to get top rankings.

    It's just a common excuse coming from bad players to say that everyone that does better than them just spends more time with it.

    It's like those people nay-saying about other peoples achievements like "I could do that as well..." but they never manage to do anything in their lives because they just think about what if... It's pathetic.

  4. #104
    People can play however long they want. If they only want to get a few hours sleep for a few days to get world #1 then it's up to them. As for the skillcap I imagine they are all pretty close. Just a case of who can down the boss faster.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Depends, it's true they have a lot of time/gold/fanboys to "boost" them to the finish line, but they are skilled as well. Not saying all of them are the best, but if they didn't have skill they wouldn't be leading the rankings.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Keoren View Post
    There is no reason for these restrictions. If guilds want to push it to the limit, let them. The negatives can at times even be considered a part of the charm.



    I can assure you that while the top players put in massive amounts of hours and manage their time well, they are also for the most part exceptionally skilled in what they are doing. On top of this, they tend to have the responsibility of coming up with the working tactics for the encounters that the people coming after them can follow.
    Surely the top guilds simply cannot afford to suffer any fools gladly. You can tell just by looking at their parses--hell just by their damage meters in videos that are usually insanely, beautifully flat--just how good they are. I'm sure there is a lot of "if the guy next to you is good, that pushes you to be better" going on. But there's no way those guys aren't among the best players in the world.

  7. #107
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Well, one thing I am sure of, is they couldn't spend more time one dailies, because they cleared T14 HMs in the second week. That is barely time to get 2000 valor and that might just about buy you a cloak, bracers or a belt..and then I am not even sure you could get the rep needed to buy them.

    They certainly couldn't get huge rep with any of the new factions...and then there is pretty much only the ilv 522 shado pan assault neck that everyone can get at neutral. All their other gear pretty much trash vendor and rep gear.

    PTR...as far as I am aware, Blizzard posted windows for every boss when they can be tested. But I admit I know not much about the ptr. Are bosses up ALL the time? and ALL the time accessible in HM? I doubt that, I even doubt the ptr is up all the time. Ptr is buggy and encounters are usually buggy.

    As to the theorycrafting, I can say nothing.

    Again: These HMs are out 2-3 days. Anybody who tries to convince us that these guys are a bunch of skilless nabs who just sink in crazy amounts of time is delusional in my eyes.

    We had people whining here how Horridon normal is overtuned. These guys did T14 HMs in an ilv where others wipe on normal or even LFraid. The Top 100 is 2/12 HM. The Top 20 is 3/13 HM and then there are three guilds at 8/13 HM. face it folks..these guys are the Messi of raiding. These guys are in a skill league of their own. They are even faaaaaaaaaaarrrrr off from any Top 10 guild.

    And there is nothing bad in admitting that. It is rather pathetic to sit here and downplay it.
    Oh in no way am I downplaying their skill. I'm simply saying that the time they spend in game saved through killing stuff faster is partially mitigated by spending time on things other than raiding, to prepare for raiding.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by freelapdance View Post
    People can play however long they want. If they only want to get a few hours sleep for a few days to get world #1 then it's up to them. As for the skillcap I imagine they are all pretty close. Just a case of who can down the boss faster.
    And that's fine, but pretty much all hardcore guilds are not even close to being good enough for world #1. Yes, on many realms in WoW, there are hardcore guilds, but they aren't world guilds, they're decent, but no way near as good as the best of the best. Yet, many people act like they are. I don't get it. Those are the kinds of people that take the game too seriously to the point that they bad mouth others because they aren't as good. The funny thing is, they would get completely destroyed by top guilds and players, so they have no room to insult and take the game so seriously. JMO

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    I've seen this topic thrown around a lot recently so I have a possible solution that I would like to share. What if blizzard limits guilds and player accounts to 7 - 9 hours of raiding a day, with lets say four 10 minute periods to stop the clock for breaks.

    Benefits:
    - A more competitive race for guilds who are willing to put in the effort but can't devote ridiculous hours a day to raiding.
    - Less physical and mental exhaustion
    - More focus on effective strategy, execution, efficiency, skill what have you rather than time investment
    - Reduced player burnout
    - Reduced incentive to do multiple alt runs
    - Bosses will last longer

    If you can list any negative repercussions to this idea please share.
    Negatives?
    It is another artificial block into what i want doing with purpose to regulate progress to a standard, something that Blizzard never cared about (support progression guilds that is). Notice that i tend to raid 8-10 hours per week overall so your "per day" limit wont affect my game play but it doesnt matter.
    One other thing is...What is included on your "per day raiding"? What if one of the guildies decide to pug HoF before raid and ends up with 3 hours "on the raid meter"? Then a guild that wants to spent more than 4 hours the same night is...$crewed.
    Aditional cost for designing something that affects a limited amount of guilds is also non negligible. Having 9,6 potential raiders under a "raid meter" algorithm in real time is not excactly...simple.

    How many guilds would be affected? Those that raid over 7 hours a day according to your suggested limit.
    I would go as far as to suggest that they aint more than 200-300 around the globe.
    And also those right bellow or on that sweetspot that all of the sudden, without investing extra time, will learn if they can actually compete with the hardest of the hard cores.

    All that while at the same time...
    Blizzard has two sizes, completely different, that are affected by each fight in a different manner.
    Still they award one "realm first tittle" making people consider this parody as "one race".

    From current tier check how much time it took to Paragon to defeat Dark Animus encounter in combarison to Method and after wards they downed Twin consorts in 2-3 hours while method is still Strugling after days!

    Other nice detail about the "one" race?
    US guilds start at Tuesday, EU at Wed and Asian guilds at Thursday.

    And another one?
    While EU/US guilds still have what we used to have in Cataclysm (a bit watered down thank god), Asian guilds rolled back to a wrath like system. They have highest ilv gear in 25s, harder tuned encounters in 25, and no shared locks in 10 and 25.

    And another one?
    Thunderforged item drops are 7,5 times more in 25s as oposed to 10s(instead of 2,5), gear per boss per person is 0,24 in 25 and 0,20 in 10 man. That means that every reset that progression lasts 25s have an advandage vs equally progressed 10s.

    So what race excactly are we talking about? Which "level playing field"? What all the above show regarding what Blizzard things about "competitive raiding"?
    With so many issues, you think that putting a time limit per day would give ANY credibility to a "world" (west) first, or a "realm" first?
    I honestly think not...
    Last edited by Archidamos; 2013-03-19 at 07:27 AM.

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    Hardcore Raiding: Time investment > Skill
    Not even close to true. Not sure why the title is what it is.
    This WAS true in the early days of wow where raids took much longer to complete, but now with as little outside preparation as is needed, and with as few bosses as some of the last few tiers have had, how can you possibly even consider this true?
    You clearly don't follow any of the actual "race" otherwise you would see guilds wiping for DAYS to the same boss.
    Let me know if you feel the same at the start of a bosses progression as you do 12 hours later in the same sitting.
    Time is not even remotely the only variable.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    I've seen this topic thrown around a lot recently so I have a possible solution that I would like to share. What if blizzard limits guilds and player accounts to 7 - 9 hours of raiding a day, with lets say four 10 minute periods to stop the clock for breaks.

    Benefits:
    - A more competitive race for guilds who are willing to put in the effort but can't devote ridiculous hours a day to raiding.
    - Less physical and mental exhaustion
    - More focus on effective strategy, execution, efficiency, skill what have you rather than time investment
    - Reduced player burnout
    - Reduced incentive to do multiple alt runs
    - Bosses will last longer

    If you can list any negative repercussions to this idea please share.
    How about this? Stop worrying about what other people are doing and mind your own god damn business.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 03:42 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post
    While I tend to believe that the world first races tend to have an element of quantity over quality, brute forcing encounters until they finally get it, this suggestion won't do anything about that.

    Just like people say "world first guilds have geared alts" to bypass limited attempts per week (like Ra-den), they could also have second accounts with geared alts to bypass full on account lockouts.

    In other words, nothing would change, other than the steps they would take would get progressively more absurd.
    Also what people aren't taking into consideration is that world first guilds overall spend significantly less time on progression content than casual raiders. They don't screw around with dailies and such things nor do they mess around when in raids themselves. They log in get what they need to get done and log right back out.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 03:54 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Irialx View Post
    People should be able to play how they want.

    However its rather hilarious that 9/10 its the TIME these guilds put in that gets them their ranks. NOT skill.
    Really? If that is the case then please explain why more people don't clear heroic mode raid content if the only real factor is time.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 03:58 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by TooMuch View Post
    Lol at all those replies about deciding yourself how much time you want to play... Doesn't Blizzard already limit it, by the weekly lock out, the cap on Valor Points etc etc. It's even their policy "to protect people against themselves".
    There is a significant difference between limiting how much time players spend on certain content and micromanagement. What the OP suggests just simply isn't necessary. World first guilds will remain world first and the wannabe hardcores will remain stuck on normal modes and LFR.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 04:07 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    This is what i'm not sure about; do people want to play all day? or do they feel forced to do so to remain competitive?
    Ever think to consider that maybe just maybe part of the fun in hardcore raiding is the competition? I get that many players don't enjoy that but seriously stop coming up with these lame ideas to change the game simply because you can't comprehend that other people play the game differently.

  12. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    I've seen this topic thrown around a lot recently so I have a possible solution that I would like to share. What if blizzard limits guilds and player accounts to 7 - 9 hours of raiding a day, with lets say four 10 minute periods to stop the clock for breaks.

    Benefits:
    - A more competitive race for guilds who are willing to put in the effort but can't devote ridiculous hours a day to raiding.
    - Less physical and mental exhaustion
    - More focus on effective strategy, execution, efficiency, skill what have you rather than time investment
    - Reduced player burnout
    - Reduced incentive to do multiple alt runs
    - Bosses will last longer

    If you can list any negative repercussions to this idea please share.
    Yea i agree, also I think Top Athletes shouldnt be allowed to train 5 days a week to reach their skill level.

    Benefits :

    - A more competitive sport for people who are willing to put in the effort but can't devote ridiculous hours a day to training.


    ... oh wait.... nm ill just stop there.
    Quote Originally Posted by nnelson54 View Post
    I don't celebrate National Native Americans Welcomed Us With Open Arms and Helped Us Survive the First Winter That We Were Woefully Unprepared For and We Repaid Them By Taking Their Lands, Raping Their Women and Murdering Them Day....
    Several Indian tribes see this holiday as the beginning of a process by which they tragically lost their land, and their population was decimated. Every year Indians come together in Plymouth to commemorate their "national day of mourning."

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Haywire5714 View Post
    I've seen this topic thrown around a lot recently so I have a possible solution that I would like to share. What if blizzard limits guilds and player accounts to 7 - 9 hours of raiding a day, with lets say four 10 minute periods to stop the clock for breaks.
    Coming from a guild that is focused on efficiency and with lots of raiders who have careers/families and require a more limited schedule ... I say, no thank you.

    Let people play as much as they want. We don't feel the need to measure ourselves against guilds that want to push it harder and, in fact, I enjoy that part of the metagame (i.e. tracking the BLs, Methods or others that go 5-7 nights). Several of our players look back fondly at times in their lives when they could do that.

    Having said that, it's fun to have Ra-den style encounters that force things at a more measured pace, but that should never the be the overall design paradigm.
    Top tier 25M progression raiding on 12 hours per week.
    http://www.temerityofwindrunner.com/
    US 15th Garrosh - US 19th Ra-den ** US 19th Sha of Fear

  14. #114
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    I think that this would be an absolutely awesome end to the debate of skill -vs- time. There would be no competition the more skilled players would win. However as an average skilled player I think it would suck to not be able to log on to do the other things outside of raiding my normal nine hours a week that this would not affect.





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