Thread: Rate my mage

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  1. #21
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    The truth is, getting to hit cap is imperative to good damage, but if you have a .09% chance to miss, you're probably okay for a while. I ran with (accidentally) 14.5% hit one night for a three hour raid, and didn't miss a single time. I've also ran at 14.99 and missed my combustion, which was incredibly annoying. It all comes down to that chance that you actually do miss an ability. Your hit cap will not drastically change your dps. As far as other stats, Mastery is actually more beneficial if you are between haste breakpoints. That will certainly involve some math, but keep it in mind. You don't really have enough crit to out damage frost, but if you can't get almost equal haste then it's up to you.

    Also, OP, if you're going to ask for advice, don't react like you did. If you don't like what someone says, just thank them and move on. No point in arguing over advice you don't agree with.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Yes, because Sims are the most accurate thing in the world.
    /sarcasm.

    Fact: "Advice" doesn't actually have to be factual. Advice is, more often than not, opinion based as you give advice based off your personal experiences.
    No one on this thread is saying that their opinion is fact. They are giving advice based off their personal experience, and their personal experience (mine included) is that you hit-cap.

    It actually baffles me that there are a number of people who take Sims as gospel, and it's actually really f***ing retarded sometimes. You, as a person and a player, are not a computer. You will NEVER play as well as a computer. Sims are inaccurate for this exact reason.
    A computer will be able to react to a miss and make up their DPS accordingly, and with delta parses and minimized RNG levels of course it's OK. However, you will never run a boss 10,000 times to minimize that level of RNG where being under hit cap matters.

    In small sample sizes RNG can f***ing wreck parses. Funnily enough, being under hit cap is one of the factors here. Fire's already dictated largely by RNG already, there's no need to make it worse.
    Sims may not be accurate but math is. Don't try lumping me in as someone who "take Sims as gospel", that isn't at all what I said and you are only trying to distract from the fact that you are wrong. Saying that in small sample sizes RNG can wreck parses is like saying water makes things wet. Funnily enough, the hit rating you didn't spend to be at or more likely over cap can FAR MORE OFTEN THAN NOT smooth out the RNG you are whining about through being more efficient with your item budget.

    Case in point; assuming your armory isn't bugged, you have 15.52% hit. You wasted 200 secondary stats that could actually increase your dps by being put toward a useful stat. Again, this is assuming your armory isn't bugged which I admit is entirely possible.

    As for the advice quip, again, you are putting words in my mouth in an attempt to strawman the conversation away from your being wrong. I never said you needed to state only facts when giving advice. I said it is important to be as accurate as possible. There is no argument to be had there, sorry.
    Last edited by Methusula; 2013-03-15 at 09:45 PM.

  3. #23
    I'm also finding it hard to distinguish the gear point where I can begin to play with fire. My current mage armory is: Jôsh - Nagrand EU (cant post links yet)

    I tried some basic sims using 10k iterations with full crit and it came out as 111k Fire Vs 123k Frost. I know this won't be 100% true to go by, but im guessing all the arcane mastery gear I collected in 5.1 is holding me back from lack of crit on my gear. The problem im facing atm is I need haste for frost which I currently "have" to play but I need to be collecting crit gear for fire in the end. Suggestions?? Also what do people think about my levels of crit being enough or close.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Yes, hit over cap has a value of 0, but UNDER hit cap, it's also your best stat. Yes, actually, a fraction of a percent CAN make or break your DPS. Over 10,000 iterations of a fight, no, it'll make very little difference and will average out to an increase. Over ~30-40? RNG will dictate. If you get slightly unlucky GG, your DPS is over.
    As opposed to putting those wasted stats to better use to bump yourself over a haste threshold, or increasing your chance of critting? Theoretically, with a 0.01% miss chance, it's possible for you to miss every single spell cast. Realistically, you can expect more like 0-3 misses in the entire encounter, and your other stats being higher as a result have a far higher probability of making up for it than not.

    And, once again, this is normal modes the guy is running. You could meet the DPS requirements with a 3% miss chance. By the time he's got some normal mode gear, he'll probably end up reforging out of hit in every slot, and still over cap.

  5. #25
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    Hey your gems are fine but your hit and crit can do better. Check the auction house if you want to upgrade that stuff but get ready to shell out thousands of gol

  6. #26
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    Sims may not be accurate but math is. Don't try lumping me in as someone who "take Sims as gospel", that isn't at all what I said and you are only trying to distract from the fact that you are wrong. Saying that in small sample sizes RNG can wreck parses is like saying water makes things wet. Funnily enough, the hit rating you didn't spend to be at or more likely over cap can FAR MORE OFTEN THAN NOT smooth out the RNG you are whining about through being more efficient with your item budget.

    Case in point; assuming your armory isn't bugged, you have 15.52% hit. You wasted 200 secondary stats that could actually increase your dps by being put toward a useful stat. Again, this is assuming your armory isn't bugged which I admit is entirely possible.

    As for the advice quip, again, you are putting words in my mouth in an attempt to strawman the conversation away from your being wrong. I never said you needed to state only facts when giving advice. I said it is important to be as accurate as possible. There is no argument to be had there, sorry.
    Me being wrong is entirely opinion based.

    The funny thing? You actually are helping prove my point.

    Why? You agree that hit is the highest-weighted stat up until the cap. Your argument stipulates that if I was at 15.52% hit (which I'm not - Armoury bug), I would have ~200 wasted secondary stats. I agree with this, though the figure is actually closer to 177. In your own argument you are saying that you are only wasting stats when you push yourself over the cap.
    So, by your own reasoning, you should be capping as you only waste secondary stats that go into hit once you're over the hit-cap, not before.

    Please, do correct me here if I'm wrong.

    Building on this, hit pre-15% is your highest-weighted stat. I think, based on AMR values, by ~20% over crit. That means that, you have to gain a 20% increase in secondary stats (assuming full-crit here, potentially wrongly) for it to be "worth" it, and the trade-off is increased chances to miss, which could hurt your dps far more than help.

    Realistically speaking, if you're adaptable enough with both your enchanting (ie, sometimes replacing Greater Haste on Gloves for Superior Expertise, for example) and gemming, you will never be so far over the hit cap that you are wasting too many secondary stats, ergo it's logical to say that you should be hit capping, correct? Case in point - I'm 15.03% hit now (new gear since you last looked at my armoury), which means (my maths being correct) I'm only "wasting" ~10 secondary stats.

    In my opinion, 10 secondary stats is not worth crying about. In terms of crit it's worth 0.016%, it's not significant enough to risk going under hit-cap for.

    I'm really sorry, but you just won't sway me on this. The chance of missing a Combustion or a Pyroblast! leading to a Combust is, in my opinion anyway, just not worth it, no matter how small the chance to miss is. It's one small piece of bad RNG and your parse gets absolutely wrecked against "wasting" 10 secondary stats to ensure you never miss.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Me being wrong is entirely opinion based.

    The funny thing? You actually are helping prove my point.

    Why? You agree that hit is the highest-weighted stat up until the cap. Your argument stipulates that if I was at 15.52% hit (which I'm not - Armoury bug), I would have ~200 wasted secondary stats. I agree with this, though the figure is actually closer to 177. In your own argument you are saying that you are only wasting stats when you push yourself over the cap.
    So, by your own reasoning, you should be capping as you only waste secondary stats that go into hit once you're over the hit-cap, not before.

    Please, do correct me here if I'm wrong.

    Building on this, hit pre-15% is your highest-weighted stat. I think, based on AMR values, by ~20% over crit. That means that, you have to gain a 20% increase in secondary stats (assuming full-crit here, potentially wrongly) for it to be "worth" it, and the trade-off is increased chances to miss, which could hurt your dps far more than help.

    Realistically speaking, if you're adaptable enough with both your enchanting (ie, sometimes replacing Greater Haste on Gloves for Superior Expertise, for example) and gemming, you will never be so far over the hit cap that you are wasting too many secondary stats, ergo it's logical to say that you should be hit capping, correct? Case in point - I'm 15.03% hit now (new gear since you last looked at my armoury), which means (my maths being correct) I'm only "wasting" ~10 secondary stats.

    In my opinion, 10 secondary stats is not worth crying about. In terms of crit it's worth 0.016%, it's not significant enough to risk going under hit-cap for.

    I'm really sorry, but you just won't sway me on this. The chance of missing a Combustion or a Pyroblast! leading to a Combust is, in my opinion anyway, just not worth it, no matter how small the chance to miss is. It's one small piece of bad RNG and your parse gets absolutely wrecked against "wasting" 10 secondary stats to ensure you never miss.
    This is all true. Wasting 10 stats isn't really anything to cry over. You are correct here. In your instance, being .03 over cap is likely optimal. This is not always the case however. The pendulum can swing in the opposite direction where being .03 under cap is optimal.

    Think of it this way, if the only possible way with your gear regardless of gemming/reforging/enchanting configuration, was to either be 50 hit over cap or 25 hit under, the optimal configuration would be 25 under. There are countless scenarios where this logic wins out. The value of hit is higher than other secondary stats, but not infinitely so. There will always be situations where being under hit cap is optimal. That being said, with sound configuration, the actual impact of either being over cap or under cap can be trivial.
    Last edited by Methusula; 2013-03-18 at 02:42 PM.

  8. #28
    Rate it

    eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/teldrassil/Tr%C3%AEv%C3%AEal/advanced

    15.94% Hit at wow page is wrong. My hit is at 15.00%

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobo View Post
    Rate it

    eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/teldrassil/Tr%C3%AEv%C3%AEal/advanced

    15.94% Hit at wow page is wrong. My hit is at 15.00%
    Looks good. My sims always show int as more than double the value of haste so my gemming reflects that. Sims are not necessarily exactly accurate so we can't have a definitive "correct" method there. Looks to me that your gear is pretty crit heavy and might favor Fire. I still need a few more crit upgrades before I go back to it. So overall, I can't see anything to really pick at here.

  10. #30
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    This is all true. Wasting 10 stats isn't really anything to cry over. You are correct here. In your instance, being .03 over cap is likely optimal. This is not always the case however. The pendulum can swing in the opposite direction where being .03 under cap is optimal.

    Think of it this way, if the only possible way with your gear regardless of gemming/reforging/enchanting configuration, was to either be 50 hit over cap or 25 hit under, the optimal configuration would be 25 under. There are countless scenarios where this logic wins out. The value of hit is higher than other secondary stats, but not infinitely so. There will always be situations where being under hit cap is optimal. That being said, with sound configuration, the actual impact of either being over cap or under cap can be trivial.
    True, and I agree to an extent. The only part I disagree is "Think of it this way, if the only possible way with your gear regardless of gemming/reforging/enchanting configuration, was to either be 50 hit over cap or 25 hit under, the optimal configuration would be 25 under" and only because it depends on the gains. If hit is so important in comparison to other stats then it could that being 50 over is worth it. Just depends.

  11. #31
    Dreadlord ItsRedd's Avatar
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    All these people crying about hit:

    Being 0,09% under can be recommended. If it means you get another 100-300 of a secondary stat, it's worth it. Simple math.

  12. #32
    Lets go for it, always searching to improve my mage !

    Hit is wrong, I have 14.86. It's either that or being overcapped with like 15.2 or 3. I'm experimenting to see what i'm gonna end up to do.
    Had lots of Hit/Crit gear since 5.2. Didnt ever had the chance to have 4pieces T14, never dropped (LFR or normal).
    I'm changing almost for every fights, so I don't know if its worth looking at em .

    Thoughts ?

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/fr/characte...s/Daa/advanced

    Thanks
    Made by mountandpetlover, big thanks !

  13. #33
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itsredd View Post
    All these people crying about hit:

    Being 0,09% under can be recommended. If it means you get another 100-300 of a secondary stat, it's worth it. Simple math.
    We aren't "crying", firstly.

    Secondly if you're gaining 300 of a secondary stat by being under hit cap you won't be 0.09% under, unless you've geared badly. Another thing to consider is that it depends completely on what the secondary stat you're gaining is, as it's not always Crit (for Fire).
    Mastery is 70% worse than Hit while you're under hit-cap, Haste is 45% worse or 58% worse, depending on whether you're above or below a breakpoint or not.

    Yes, robots will do the Maths to figure out what score will best suit your gear - and this can put you under hit-cap. Robots, however, DO NOT account for what spells you miss, they do the maths based on the stat-weights you plug in and calculate the highest possible score for your gear. I could be wrong with that but that's how I think it works.

  14. #34

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishrage View Post
    I don't know how it's possible for someone at that item level to have so little haste. You aren't even close to the first breakpoint of 3056. Any particular reason?

  16. #36
    What a nonsense debate about hitcap. Being a few 0.01 under hitcap to ensure you have the maximum amount of crit is not a big deal at all. Yes, there is a superlittle tiny tiny chance you miss a major spell, is a chance you have to take.

    I prefer to take that chance (14.90% is my lowest point I settle for (and 15.10% highest) if it means I wont lose crit, but for now I have always been above 14.96%). For me, the most important thing is the maximum amount of crit on my gear. So, that means I forge away the highest secondary stat to crit (often that is not hit), and from there on I start forging to 15% hit. I try to avoid mastery gear, especially haste+mastery, and it is even worse if haste is the biggest stat on the item. You can lose 0.5-1% of crit on items like that.

    The OP has 21.5% base crit and walking around in 503 ilvl, I'm 3 ilvls lower, but I have 24% crit (and also 400 more spellpower, farming the Elite dagger or Tsulongs weapon is worth it), a huge difference if you look at Critical mass. If you dont count flasks, stats buff and procs, my fireball has a 34*1.3=44.2% chance of being a crit, yours has only 31.5*1.3=40.95% chance. 3.25% crit is a lot.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Methusula View Post
    I don't know how it's possible for someone at that item level to have so little haste. You aren't even close to the first breakpoint of 3056. Any particular reason?
    My gear doesn't really have any haste on it at all. Not much I can do to stop that other than reforge into haste, which (as fire) is pointless.

  18. #38
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    since others posted their armory too i guess i'll do it too.

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nthos/advanced

    any tipps? (except the missing ingi enchant on gloves - logged off after equipping it)

    Edit: Hit isnt correct, i'm exact at 15%

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 10:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishrage View Post
    My gear doesn't really have any haste on it at all. Not much I can do to stop that other than reforge into haste, which (as fire) is pointless.
    i looked your armory up.. you should really get more haste out of your gear. mastery is your weakest stat and yet (for example legs) you reforged haste > crit instead of mastery > crit. tweak your reforges to get more haste, you could use AMR or reforgelite.
    Last edited by Xarganthos; 2013-03-20 at 09:49 AM.

  19. #39
    Dreadlord ItsRedd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Serene View Post
    Text
    I didn't mean to say that getting any secondary stat a little bit higher will always outweigh being a little under your hit cap. However, if it's crit for a fire mage for instance, it's worth it rather quickly. I wouldn't forge below my hit cap to get a bit of mastery either.

    As fas as the robots, they don't know what spells you'll miss indeed. However, there's a statistical probability of missing X spells during Y fight-time. In the case of a fire mage, the only real damage that can be done there is missing pyro crits during the combustion build-up. The chances of that happening are so small, that getting more crit (for all the ones you don't miss) is worth it.

    It's a balance thing ofcourse. Not a single stat-weighing 'robot' will ever suggest you go more than .25 under your hit cap.

    As far as personal preference goes, I always try to be above the hit cap unless it's more than .10. I don't like the idea of being able to miss a critical spell either. At the moment, I'm at 15.01%. Dropping that below 15 is not worth it to me, as im rather close to the cap and I'll be quite a bit below it if I change it.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Xarganthos View Post
    i looked your armory up.. you should really get more haste out of your gear. mastery is your weakest stat and yet (for example legs) you reforged haste > crit instead of mastery > crit. tweak your reforges to get more haste, you could use AMR or reforgelite.
    Hey,

    I was using reforgelite, but my stat weights are totally wrong for some reason.... I just relied on the results as gospel. I guess that's what happens when you rely to heavily on something!

    Thanks for your input.

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