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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by zephid View Post
    More mechanics to handle usually means harder boss, and harder boss means better boss imo.
    More mechanics usually does mean harder boss, naturally, but that doesn't make it better. At least to me, and it certainly doesn't make it fun. Mechanics wise for a boss, constantly switching and running and all that other stuff, it gets to a point where it's not very fun. On a side note, I'm getting really tired of these fights in Mists where it's adds, adds and more adds. Stop it. lol

  2. #22
    Stood in the Fire
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    Fights like Yogg-Saron (well basically every boss in Ulduar, surprise surprise) are very good ones that really have one main complex mechanic that takes a lot of coordination. I don't necessarily find anything bad with bosses having a lot of mechanics as long as it isn't unnecessary, but in my opinion it's best to have a boss with one main, complex mechanic that requires coordination as opposed to a bunch of different mechanics strewn together.
    I also agree that harder fights usually = better fights (not regarding overtunes of course).
    I actually think the bosses this tier are good, I think Blizzard would know if they go a bit overboard.
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  3. #23
    Fights with mechanics are *always* better than DPS check fights. Mainly because DPS checks are just about gear and what class setup you run, skill hardly matters at that point. Even if you look at the top guilds that race for the world firsts, a lot of the DPS check fights the top guilds find a way to "break" the encounter so they can kill the bosses as fast as possible.

    Fights that have a lot of phases also require thought, rather than "Oh I'll just stand here and mash buttons and win, lawl this is hard". Nothing fun about standing still button mashing compared to actually having to pay attention and stand away from fire.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sTyLnK View Post
    More mechanics usually does mean harder boss, naturally, but that doesn't make it better. At least to me, and it certainly doesn't make it fun. Mechanics wise for a boss, constantly switching and running and all that other stuff, it gets to a point where it's not very fun. On a side note, I'm getting really tired of these fights in Mists where it's adds, adds and more adds. Stop it. lol
    I agree. Some of my favorite bosses in WoW aren't hard because of difficult mechanics, but just because my experience with that boss was good. A good boss is just different from person to person. And yeah, I hate add bosses

  5. #25
    Blizzard stated that they wanted new encounters to be less of a DPS check and more of a 'oh shit get the crap out of shit on the floor'.

    It makes for a far better encounter.

    If you tried to do Ulduar for example 'Freya', you can't just zerg that down even now. (solo 10 man, having problems myself)

    Any encounter should be enjoyable, challenging, not conquered based on the fact you can push x amount of dps to avoid mechanics.

    Many people play the game for many different reasons. There is no right or wrong. You can make it a challenge or you can coast your way through.

    But, will you be happy or do you just cheat yourself?
    "If you aren't nostalgic of Vanilla WoW, you don't have a heart. If you want to bring it back, you don't have a brain." - Moistmuffins

  6. #26
    I prefer more mechanics, some nice bosses don't have many though, like Jinrokh the Breaker, feng the accursed or Warlord Zon'ozz

  7. #27
    I think the key is to make a patchwerk fight you have to make other fights of varying difficulty for it to be enjoyable.

    Running heroic dungeons is fun because almost all fights at a certain tier (Apparently for this expansion it's the first) become a joke and just ignore the mechanics and "patchwerk" fight is what it becomes.

    But in a raid with 9/24 other people you expect to have to do something together and just doing a larger version of a heroic dungeon is not really what raiding is about. It's about having to work together and it's a tricky task to make new compelling ways to work together in a game engine that is roughly 10 years old (dev started when? i dunno) and you have to make it realistic in contrast to the enemy/environment.

    I think there is a fine balance between raiding bosses that are really easy and really hard. Often the mechanics are only multiple in nature to slow people down from it being too easy, but once you discover them it becomes trivial over time. That's the key to the design, and the key behind multiple mechanics, just makes the human brain slow down longer, especially if the mechanics are similar in nature and close in succession.

    So back in vanilla or tbc they were harsh game mechanics that were basically "You do this or you die." and they had longer fights so that the harsh mechanic happened say 2 times over 5 minutes. Now it is "You do this or you almost die." but it is 5 times over 4 minutes, and they are each a bit different. It is a better strategy because it is more forgiving and it also creates a longer period of time to understand the fight, and more periods of time to successively attempt to accomplish the fight.

    In closing I'd like to say that Blizzard probably understands better than any other gaming company what "attrition" means in relation to gaming and enjoyment return. They really have listened to what makes the casual raider want to raid, not that it is a good thing or a bad thing, but they certainly do try to inspire people to raid casually.

  8. #28
    High Overlord
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    Say what you will about fights with a bunch of mechanics, they are still all about throughput. Your healers need to meet a certain HPS requirement, your DD need to meet a certain DPS requirement. Having a ton of mechanics are just obfuscating the fact that the boss is still just a number game. I've been becoming more annoyed that most boss fights I am staring at the floor and timers most of the time. Only way to get a good idea of what the encounter actually played out like is by watching videos.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sfr528 View Post
    Say what you will about fights with a bunch of mechanics, they are still all about throughput. Your healers need to meet a certain HPS requirement, your DD need to meet a certain DPS requirement. Having a ton of mechanics are just obfuscating the fact that the boss is still just a number game. I've been becoming more annoyed that most boss fights I am staring at the floor and timers most of the time. Only way to get a good idea of what the encounter actually played out like is by watching videos.
    You can extrapolate almost any game into a number game, that is why math is awesome. and that is why games are awful and boring, because the more math you know, the more boring the games are.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Strakha View Post
    You can extrapolate almost any game into a number game, that is why math is awesome. and that is why games are awful and boring, because the more math you know, the more boring the games are.
    Well, it's a shame that you awesome math ppl feel the need to post on gaming forums, as, you claim, the games are boring but apparently the forums warrant your attention.
    "If you aren't nostalgic of Vanilla WoW, you don't have a heart. If you want to bring it back, you don't have a brain." - Moistmuffins

  11. #31
    I am Murloc! Thelxi's Avatar
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    Meh, whatever. I don't get much thrill out of doing very hectic bosses anymore. I don't mind having to perfectly execute the dance, but when things start to get very random I start getting tired.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    You'll excuse me for laughing in your face if you're asserting that vanilla and TBC bosses used complex mechanics while WotLK and onwards did not.

    Because that's pretty much the exact opposite of what happened.
    I was talking more about them making it now so everyone has a responsibility.

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  13. #33
    I like mechanically demanding fights but there's a breaking point where there are too many things happening at once and it only gets frustrating, not enternaining. Especially throwing a lot of RNG mechanics together into one mosh pit, the latest encounter that does it is council of elders - get rooted by sand trap spawning on you - you get dispelled and move awa...NOPE CHARGE AND STUNNED IN THE TRAP LOL! This leads to inescapable death traps, something not really well designed. It's bad RNG not happening often but still.

    But overall i enjoyed the first 4 i downed. Tortos is your standard avoid shit fight but done in a way that makes it feel like heroic spirit kings.

  14. #34
    Titan Kangodo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rixark View Post
    The idea that a boss with multiple phases and mechanics means that the boss will be good in most cases. I don't completely agree with this.
    But that was never the statement

    The idea is that a boss where you don't have to do 'anything' is boring.
    My friend played the entire tier as hunter and this is what he had to do.

    Vaults:
    The Stone Guard - DPS boss.
    Feng the Accursed - DPS boss and move if the boss was out of range.
    Gara'jal the Spiritbinder - DPS boss, RNG pulled him in the realm and he had to kill one add.
    The Spirit Kings - DPS boss, move away from the 'soldiers'.
    Elegon - DPS boss, kill add, kill the spawns, move out of the platform and kill the adds/pillars.
    Will of the Emperor - DPS adds and boss.

    2 out of 6 bosses actually required him to "pay attention" and press the WASD-keys.
    The other raids weren't much different at all.

    And we don't need an entire mini-game every fight, but bosses have to feel different from dummies.

  15. #35
    Oh, yeah, complex mechanics ... yawn ... wake me up next expansion.

    They kinda lost me since Cataclysm when it comes to raiding. I just can't force myself to care about the clusterfuck, bullshit overkill and gimmick nonsense they do in some of the newer boss encounters. It just isn't any fun and is plain ridiculous sometimes. Stuff like Rhyolith, Ragnaros or Deathwing are amongst the most horrid examples of boss design in history.

    Run backwards, recite Shakespeare while imitating the sound of a duck while simultaneously writing down all leap years from 1928 until today on the back side of your tax form - don't step into the purple pool of baby toes and don't forget to smile!
    Last edited by Pull My Finger; 2013-03-16 at 11:51 AM.

  16. #36
    The balance is very important!

    A few Bosses with pretty simple Mechanics where you basically don't stand in Fire and do lots of HPS/DPS - Jinrokh, Iron Qon, Magaera or Lei Shi, Blade Lord, Garajal in T14.
    A few Bosses that are about Add-handling - Horridon, Dark Animus or Wind Lord, WotE in T14.
    Council/Twin Style Fight with multiple bosses (generally lots of mechanics because of many mobs) - Troll Council, Twin Consorts or Spirit Kings, Stone Guards, Protectors.
    Fights where movement is very important, not many mechanics but individual skill is important - Durumu or Zorlok.
    Gimmick Fights with Extra Action Buttons etc - Jikun, Tortos or Tsulong.
    Endboss Fights that have everything (adds, dont stand in the fire, lots of DPS/HPS, lots of mechanics) - Lei Shen or Empress, Elegon, Sha of Fear.

    Generally i would like to see ONE pure Patchwerk Fight like Ultraxion every content.

  17. #37
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Stuffing a boss full of mechanics is just overkill. Fun mechanics, fine. But when you take longer to read and understand a dungeon journal entry than the entire bossfight lasts, it gets boring. Yeah, I actually think that when too many abilities are thrown at you, you get bored. At least I tend to go "Oh, yet another ability. As though there weren't enough already. Ok, fine... yawn. Another one..." It's like having too much chocolate. Up to a certain amount, it's wonderful. And then you start getting sick.

    Convoluted boss mechanics aren't fun. I understand how they are needed to make heroic bosses difficult, but let's keep that stuff down at least in normal modes. That's why BC and WotLK were more fun. Fewer things to watch out for. Tighter dps and hps checks instead. I mean, look at Sunwell... easy-peasy encounter design. Looking back, I wonder how I could think that that stuff was hard.

    Or look at heroic Lich King. So few mechanics. And yet... awesome encounter.

  18. #38
    I personally love bosses with as many mechanics as possible, makes it all the better because you usually don't get any moments to rest and have to jump from a thing to another with no breaks. From the top of my head , loved Ragnaros HC fight, Council of Elders is pretty cool in my opinion (At least I like it as melee), Will of the Emperor Heroic as the leader (melee DPS) was great fun :P

  19. #39
    I personally love hard bosses, but why does this tier involves adds in almost every boss fight? Switching to adds is the most hated by me and my fellow dd'ers boss mechanics. It is dull and boring as hell. Also, this tier has ten times too much moving involved in boss mechanics. I think, Blizz've just stepped over the line with all that stuff.
    ps. Not to mention sensory overload coming from almost every boss in tier. So much lightning, light, sand etc etc, that after almost every fight I'm feeling weak and tired and my eyes are almost blood dripping, lol. Balance between patchwerk style and full a4 of abilities style bosses is what makes a raid nice and good. Having only one of two boss styles quickly becomes boring.

  20. #40
    my personal favorite is still the lich king
    Same Shit Different Day

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