Thread: sims yes sims

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  1. #1

    sims yes sims

    so have any other progression dks noticed as your fellow raiders gear up, you're not scaling as well as them. i am, im still a top dps but I've been slipping regardless of my ability, and its simply because i cant hit harder not play style. my warlocks and mages oth are tearing it up. so i fear as other classes get tier sets and higher gear levels we are gonna slip. sim may be off, but i am noticing it in real raids granted its only week 2 but as we are now getting heroic/heroic thunderforged items we are not doing as well, aoe fights ya, but definitely not single target.

    just curious, i think its too early to tell. and i know that some classes may have gotten tier faster, and maybe better luck with drops or coins, so i think this is all premature, i'm mostly curious to hear from other dks that may have geared up faster.

    http://simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T15H.html
    Last edited by damescool; 2013-03-16 at 08:17 PM.

  2. #2
    guess there is something wrong about frost dk, the crit rate for soul reaper hit and tick is different with t15 4p, but not without it.
    plus the most classes wich are better single target suck while moving or aoe, i.e. monks or warrior

  3. #3
    Something is wrong with dks in this version of simcraft.

    We may have scaling issues later on, but for now I'm not struggling to keep up with 522ish geared dps in my guild. And it's not because they're bad players.

  4. #4
    You reference mages and this quite frankly highlights the problems with sims.

    Mages are high because the sim puts them in rune of power for 99% uptime. This does not happen on any fight and if you look at the most "tank and spank" fight, jinrokh, top mages can only get ~80% uptime. This is lowered quite a bit on more intense movement fights.

    As for warlocks, affliction is the only extreme high spec so i'll only cover that. For some reason simcraft has haunt uptime at 79%. Browsing wol, top warlocks have between 40 and 60% uptime. I'm not familiar enough with warlocks to know if this is a huge reason why they are simming so high but it seems to be worth mentioning.

    So that kindof explains why mages and warlocks are high but why are we so low? Well, sims don't have ams soaking for one part. So far tortos appears to be the only fight where aoe soaking isn't very practical for us. Ams soaking will give 2-3 death coils or 3-5 frost strikes extra every 45 seconds if used properly. This results in thousands of dps gain that is not accounted for in the sims.

    As for "scaling" concerns, there isn't much I can offer you other than wait and see. I don't have your armory and I don't have your mages armory but I would wager that you don't have full tier, high ilvl weapons, and trinkets.

  5. #5
    true, this makes sense, and i shouldn't worry about numbers that are still looking good. i was just concerned when i noticed both dk spec in the bottom. only time will tell, i was mostly wondering about other dks that may have had better luck with gear drops, granted its only week 2. if they've noticed any slipping in dps against fellow raiders getting gear, but again i think its much too early to tell.

  6. #6
    You can do AMS soaking in Simcraft, it's been enabled for the last 2-3 builds.

  7. #7
    so simcraft says the T15normal sample deals arround 1k dps more than my ilvl514 main. 8% mastery +4p t15 is worse than 2% haste and 4p t14. also, higher ilvl with more sockets means your strength remains the same.
    seems legit.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hafizah View Post
    so simcraft says the T15normal sample deals arround 1k dps more than my ilvl514 main. 8% mastery +4p t15 is worse than 2% haste and 4p t14. also, higher ilvl with more sockets means your strength remains the same.
    seems legit.
    The default normal profiles don't have professions and use a non-dps race (e.g. tauren).

  9. #9
    About the AMS soaking. I cannot believe we are balanced on this. So it does not worth it taking it into consideration. We may gain dps but this cannot be the reason. Maybe we hit a plateau or something? We have more rune power than we can consume? DW is many times near GCD locked anyway. Maybe with gear inflation things go out of hand.

    I really wonder if blizzard sees that and keeps saying "your sims suck" or they have something in mind and wait to patch it in the near future. In general I have seen no comments on this.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    The default normal profiles don't have professions and use a non-dps race (e.g. tauren).
    the higher mastery and weapon dps should result in a MUCH higher froststrike, but it remains nearly the same, like anything else expect soulreaper (due 4p)

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    About the AMS soaking. I cannot believe we are balanced on this. So it does not worth it taking it into consideration. We may gain dps but this cannot be the reason. Maybe we hit a plateau or something? We have more rune power than we can consume? DW is many times near GCD locked anyway. Maybe with gear inflation things go out of hand.

    I really wonder if blizzard sees that and keeps saying "your sims suck" or they have something in mind and wait to patch it in the near future. In general I have seen no comments on this.
    That was my thought too, AMS can't be required, cause there are so many fights where it's not an option. But when it's there, like Megeara, we really shine :P

    I put up a #3 parse last week on him, and a #5 parse this week, ilvl 511.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    That was my thought too, AMS can't be required, cause there are so many fights where it's not an option.
    AMS is an amazing source of runic power on most encounters in t14 and t15.

    There are fights where it's not an option, but it is an option on far more.

    I wouldn't be surprised to see ams nerfed at some point this expansion, it's just too good when it's good and worthless otherwise.
    Last edited by Shiira; 2013-03-17 at 06:04 PM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    About the AMS soaking. I cannot believe we are balanced on this. So it does not worth it taking it into consideration. We may gain dps but this cannot be the reason.
    I don't see any issue with them balancing you around a cooldown that very blatantly raises your DPS by a fairly large amount.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    I really wonder if blizzard sees that and keeps saying "your sims suck" or they have something in mind and wait to patch it in the near future. In general I have seen no comments on this.
    Possibly because the sims aren't correct? Did that occur to you? If all you're doing when you look at SimC results is looking at the final DPS number it gives you, you're not using SimC correctly because you're using it as a substitute for your brain. Comparing between classes needs to be heavily cautioned; Nangz has already listed some examples of this.
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SSHA778 View Post
    Possibly because the sims aren't correct? Did that occur to you? If all you're doing when you look at SimC results is looking at the final DPS number it gives you, you're not using SimC correctly because you're using it as a substitute for your brain. Comparing between classes needs to be heavily cautioned; Nangz has already listed some examples of this.
    Actually yes. This is the reason I have difficulties with choosing trinkets for instance. I do not use it since I don't trust it atm.

  15. #15
    Can I get some clarification on rppm and haste for the two specs.

    Which value is it taking to multiple against the rppm value for each trinket, that flat value, or the +haste value?


    If you switch to Unholy Presence, that flat value goes up a lot, and I didn't think attack speed increases were supposed to affect rppm.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    Actually yes. This is the reason I have difficulties with choosing trinkets for instance. I do not use it since I don't trust it atm.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    I really wonder if blizzard sees that and keeps saying "your sims suck" or they have something in mind and wait to patch it in the near future. In general I have seen no comments on this.
    Then where you rank on a sim you don't trust, much less any data generated from that sim, is irrelevant because you've invalidated the entire sim, unless for some reason your claim is that just the DK sim is flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    If you switch to Unholy Presence, that flat value goes up a lot, and I didn't think attack speed increases were supposed to affect rppm.
    Tooltip obscurities don't really help, but anything that increases purely attack speed (Unholy Aura / Icy Talons, for example) doesn't affect RPPM. If it increases melee haste (Unholy Frenzy, Bloodlust/Heroism), then it does affect it. The annoying part is that all of these effects affect your swing speed in an identical manner, so it's not very straightforward to figure out which is which. In general, if it's melee haste, then it also decreases rune regeneration timers. If it's purely attack speed, it has no effect on rune regeneration timers.
    "I have it all simmed."
    Euliat

  17. #17
    My guild killed heroic megaera tonight.

    I'm still not noticing the lack of scaling that death knights are meant to have, I wasn't top but I was definitely pulling my weight.

  18. #18
    The only real scaling issue is unholy with weapon damage, and unholy just got buffed. If the devs are willing to adjust every gear tier, scaling disparities aren't problems at all.

    I mean, it's more work for them and at least from the outside it seems like fixing the underlying problem would be a better course of action, but there's a lot we don't know about their development priorities. Like, anything at all.

  19. #19
    Dreadlord vmagik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    About the AMS soaking. I cannot believe we are balanced on this. So it does not worth it taking it into consideration.
    I agree it's not a 100% certainty on encounters that we can regularly soak with AMS... But it is there and is available on most encounters in some form or another.

    If you add a 30k AMS absorb into a simc profile, occuring every minute or so then you'll find haste is devalued massively (even as 2H) with a far lower wait time. At BiS ilvls, factoring in AMS you can be technically GCD locked for most of the fight. Sims generally use "gem for haste" profiles which aren't optimal in this instance plus, with RP being so available - making you chose between wasting an RE proc or being RP capped you're actually better off going with BT to even out the resource spikes.

    At the moment I doubt the validity of the simcraft results... It does seem to show us scaling badly and this would make some sort of sense when you take into account the nature of haste and killing machine procs but time will tell - not sure if the new trinket changes will have made a significant difference either *shrug*
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  20. #20
    The Lightbringer NatePsychotic's Avatar
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    Death Knights really could use a buff in PvE, man their entire class is low as far as DPS goes. I'd understand if one spec wasn't doing so well being near the bottom of the sims, but all three specs (Frost 2h, Unh and DW Frost) is kind of overkill.
    Last edited by NatePsychotic; 2013-03-18 at 08:59 AM.

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