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  1. #1

    Ji-kun Heroic - tank damage help

    We've had a considerable number of attempts on Ji-kun heroic now, and consistently, the biggest problems has been with tank deaths. It doesn't help with the fact we've had to rotate so many tanks during attempts as people keep going afk for some nights, but our main tanks have had some pretty decent attempts and should know what they are doing -- but are still getting killed very often.

    Could anyone with some good warrior knowledge have a look at our logs and see what Badonde doing wrong, and if it's not that, something wrong with healers or tactics? If anyone could help, we would be very appreciative.
    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/y...ses&boss=69712

    Edit: Another log from some previous attempts here.
    Last edited by Sápphh; 2013-05-10 at 06:54 PM.
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  2. #2
    can't speak for the paladin, but the logs you posted says your warrior only used barrier 10 times during all of the attempts you had. i usually have atleast one CD rolling when talon rake is about to hit, the 2nd one will hurt alot. Barrier is awesome for this. With vengeance you can shave off a good 400k out of every talon strike. Barrier is your friend.

  3. #3
    Talon rake alone is usually not kills the tank for the stacking infected wounds DoT. Keep the DoT as low as possibly, be using dodge/parry CDs, and full absorbs to reset the stack. Additionally, I know talon rake can be blocked, though I'm not familiar enough with warrior mechanics to know barrier vs block for this fight.

  4. #4
    Shield barrier, he never uses it. It's pretty much as simple as that.

    It's a telegraphed attack on a predictable timer that fucks you up big time if you don't have mitigation up. The second stack is deadly. Use a minor CD for the first one, something more beefy for the second since infected talons compounds the pain.

    The pala should drop execution sentence (lol) and talent something useful like holy prism. He simply needs to make sure he has sotr up at the time of the application. Making sure ss is refreshed and also using hand of purity to reduce the bleed at the second stack won't be a bad idea. While hes at it he should glyph battlehealer. Finally, seal of insight. Use it.

  5. #5
    Pandaren Monk Tokru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aGit View Post
    can't speak for the paladin, but the logs you posted says your warrior only used barrier 10 times during all of the attempts you had. i usually have atleast one CD rolling when talon rake is about to hit, the 2nd one will hurt alot. Barrier is awesome for this. With vengeance you can shave off a good 400k out of every talon strike. Barrier is your friend.
    I do it this way: I use every rage I get on barriers because the dot is what does the most dmg. Before a Talon Rake I pool a little rage to use Shield Block. If you can get a barrier too, good, but the block is stronger here because of the certain 30% less dmg (even better with lots of mastery). Our tactic has me taking 4 Talon Rakes at one point and it is no problem. Shout for the 3rd and wall for the 4th together with Shiled Block and the occasional barrier and you won't be in any danger.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Deja Thoris View Post
    Shield barrier, he never uses it. It's pretty much as simple as that.

    It's a telegraphed attack on a predictable timer that fucks you up big time if you don't have mitigation up. The second stack is deadly. Use a minor CD for the first one, something more beefy for the second since infected talons compounds the pain.

    The pala should drop execution sentence (lol) and talent something useful like holy prism. He simply needs to make sure he has sotr up at the time of the application. Making sure ss is refreshed and also using hand of purity to reduce the bleed at the second stack won't be a bad idea. While hes at it he should glyph battlehealer. Finally, seal of insight. Use it.
    2 stacks of talon rake isn't anything near deadly for monks at least, nor prot pallies when I was raiding with one. I stagger my first one completely with nothing up, second one I'll Guard and stagger it, then Dampen Harm the 3rd, then Fortifying Brew, Guard, Stagger the 4th, Zen Med the 5th.
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  7. #7
    It's not really barrier. Ji-kun melees pretty hard too, and rake hurts. As far as I can tell from the log, most of his deaths are from unmitigated auto attacks and there was even 2 attempts where he took full rakes and died (this should never happen, you need a CD for every rake, and warriors are exceptional for this because they can shield block the rakes). There was only one death I could see where infected wounds killed him. Healers on the platform just need to know that when a tank is at 4+ stacks of infected wounds, they need to be constantly spamming tank heals to never let his health get to a threshold where the next tick of infected wounds can global him with an auto attack.

    He's wasting a lot of rage when jikun is casting random stuff through the fight - probably due to inexperience with the fight.

    Barrier stops one attack/infected wounds/half a rake, and let's you survive, but then you become weak for the next few seconds to auto attacks unless you pooled rage in advance or get lucky avoidance/blocks. It's honestly better to shield block as often as possible. There are windows where jikun will chain cast stuff in succession so it's very easy to pool a full rage bar and use block + barrier. If you had to choose one or the other, I would block though, unless you got low, then you should barrier so healers can catch up.

    Not sure if I'm doing something wrong but I don't see why barrier is better than block here. Infected wounds ticks every 3 seconds and even on a bad night I get up to maybe 7 stacks before the tank swap. His melee hits for 200k+ damage are no joke, and I'm sure accounts for most of the burst.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryce View Post
    2 stacks of talon rake isn't anything near deadly for monks at least, nor prot pallies when I was raiding with one. I stagger my first one completely with nothing up, second one I'll Guard and stagger it, then Dampen Harm the 3rd, then Fortifying Brew, Guard, Stagger the 4th, Zen Med the 5th.
    This is a thread trying to help a warrior tank and paladin tank, not about how deadly something is or isn't for a monk. An unmitigated second talon rake will kill any class, you mention taking them with mitigation, theres already a difference.

  9. #9
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    I've been looking everywhere, and can't find anything about that, and it's driving me crazy.

    How do you know if there's a big add on the nests ? I mean, I see strategies where you need to send a tank here and there, but how can you be sure there's gonna be a big bird ?

    I'm probably missing something. It's quite blurry, I'm sorry.

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  10. #10
    The big add spawn is hard-coded in. It'll spawn the 2nd & 4th nest, then 8th & 12th? for 10H, and 2nd, 5th, 8th, and 11th nest waves on 25H.

  11. #11
    Bloodsail Admiral Asheriah's Avatar
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    Ooh, sweet. I'll be noting that, thank you.

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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Asheriah View Post
    I've been looking everywhere, and can't find anything about that, and it's driving me crazy.

    How do you know if there's a big add on the nests ? I mean, I see strategies where you need to send a tank here and there, but how can you be sure there's gonna be a big bird ?

    I'm probably missing something. It's quite blurry, I'm sorry.
    most boss mods have it built in, but the big birds are on nest 2,4,8,12(this is counting the 9/10 combo as separate nests)
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  13. #13
    Brewmaster Raxxed's Avatar
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    If he's not running block + a 40-60 rage barrier for every rake, then he's taking unnecessary damage. My average talon rake this week (through absorbs) was 79k.
    Shield block is a flat 30% and with your crit block chance aswell.
    Sbarrier with 40-60 rage effectively makes you take nothing. I can take 3-4 without even thinking about CDs purely from the block/barrier combo.
    The tank dot, if he's not avoiding enough attacks then sure it can build up reasonably high, but again, barrier will absorb all of it.
    If he can't maintain optimum shield block uptime and barrier for additional mitigation, then he's either struggling with rage generation, or doesn't understand how to mesh warrior active mit.
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  14. #14
    Your paladin's got a survivability problem. On your Council kill he died to what looks like damage from the Frost King; that should never happen for a tank that's tackling Heroics. He died in that fight without even using Divine Protection. Tanks should know when a high damage phase is incoming (there, Frigid Assault) and plan accordingly; not do nothing and just die. Low SS uptime and low SotR uptime don't help matters.

    In regard to Ji-Kun H, he was dying to unmitigated (400k+) Talon Rakes. He needs to be timing SotR right before it hits. Take your 7th attempt for example. At 27:14 he uses SotR and then at 27:20 Ji'Kun starts pounding on him with a melee hit for 212k and a Talon Rake for 406k. The TR absolutely needs to be mitigated by SotR. Try 8 is what you want to be seeing - even though he died to TR, he timed his SotR well and only took 90k damage from it. Hand of Purity is an excellent talent for this fight as it can lessen the damage he and his co-tank take from the boss' DoT.

  15. #15
    Simply put - it's a l2p issue, if your pally and warrior manage their active mitigation cd's effectively they should be able to take like 5 rakes without even worrying about randomly dying.

    The only tanks that should have issues with being randomly globalled on this fight is DK/Druid, the rest have enough active mitigation and direct cooldowns that Talon Rake becomes trivial enough to largely forget about.
    Last edited by Vakna; 2013-05-10 at 06:42 AM.

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  16. #16
    I have had 0 issues with it personally. I heard that he hits like a truck and if you take more than 2 stacks of Talon Rake, you're a deadman, but it didn't feel bad at all. There shouldn't really be a ton of damage outside of the rakes either. Just make sure to rotate CDs for them.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Rixark View Post
    I have had 0 issues with it personally. I heard that he hits like a truck and if you take more than 2 stacks of Talon Rake, you're a deadman, but it didn't feel bad at all. There shouldn't really be a ton of damage outside of the rakes either. Just make sure to rotate CDs for them.
    He does hit like a truck, but tanking it correctly/bringing the right classes makes it pretty irrelevant. For example, the first few pulls we were using a DK tank - after he got destroyed a few times in a row by the third Talon Rake hitting him for 760k damage, we switched to a Paladin who was taking up to 5 Rake stacks and barely feeling it.

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  18. #18
    Some really useful stuff here I will pass on to our tanks, thanks guys. We'll give it a try on Sunday and see if we can't get this birdie down.
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  19. #19
    Looking your best attempt 5:18 min your pally had a 64% uptime on sacred shield ( supposed to be 100%). 24% uptime on shield of righteous... I usually get 50% at least in this fight. As pally i have really low dodge % which can hurt due to infected talon dot (But pally can reset the stacks with DS) I can handle 6 talon rake without problem just using properly sotr and cds.
    Looked also your pally armory. If you having problem with damage taken from tanks why the hell he has a dps legendary metagem. Stamina trinkets is ok I could say but one of the BIS trinkets for pally tanks is the valor point one (dps one). Why a ghost iron shield spike ( parry isnt a great thing but is better then the shield spike) also why the crit ring from vp. Still boots enchant could be haste instead of mastery. Gloves enchant expertise or haste no strenght. Wrist enchant mastery and no strenght. Also make him look into his reforge as well. He keeps a 1k parry on legs where he could go for haste without a problem.

    If he dont know how to play with a haste build tell him to go with a mastery control build.

    Warrior the only thing I can say is about shield barrier as well.

  20. #20

    Paladin Tank Analysis Needed!!!

    Did a few hours of pulls on this boss last night and could use some tips.

    I am going to grab this thread and use it as well! Looking for some tips for our Pally Tank as well and even some ways our Monk could improve.

    The Paladin is taking considerably more damage than our Monk tank to the point where healers feel the need to spam heal. There are some attempts where he missed a SoTR for Talon Rake and others where the Infected Talons dot just got extremely high but overall I would like a Paladin tank expert to take a look at the logs. He is missing some pieces as he switched over to tanking for us just a couple weeks ago. So he has a couple dps pieces. He is also running a haste build.

    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...rvondin/simple

    Other raiders need to do better at dodging caw as well, but my main concern is the Paladin tank spikeyness at the moment.

    He is tanking the boss first and then doing bottom nest 2 and bottom nest 8 in the second half of attempts. I switched them due to Monk avoidance being superior on the Infected Talons dot when the other tank is away on nest duty.

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s97df87t7mvxdw8o/

    All feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by jearle; 2013-05-10 at 02:50 PM.

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