1. #1
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    [Frost] NT>Frost Bomb in newest simc build (520-3)

    Well like the title says I'm getting a 1%+ dps result using NT over Frost bomb.

    I'm not sure why this difference has only appeared in the latest build. Its either a bug or the bomb buff has changed things more than I thought.

    In my gear the difference is tiny (0.02%) but in 522 BiS its 1.3% and in 535 BiS its 1.01%.

    If someone else wants to confirm this or has any idea if its just a bug please do.
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  2. #2
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    It's true, and it's stuff I've said before.

    But nobody listens to me, they just listen to a simcraft post.

  3. #3
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Don't take it so personally. You're a respected member of this community and people do listen to what you say.
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  4. #4
    Pandaren Monk Serpent's Avatar
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    Probably due to the recent change to RPPM trinkets... they proc more reliably at the beginning of the fight, and I guess a fully buffed NT is quite the beast. Also explains why the difference grows as gear (=trinkets) gets better.

  5. #5
    I use to be a Frost Bomb junkie until Akraen showed me the ways (and the fact the LOTC was so good) and have yet to look back. I find myself using it some, but more out of frustration from multi-dotting, but it hurts over all damage. With the amount of haste we have from gear and raid buffs the extra ticks of NT gives way more Brain Freeze procs then from having to cast Frost Bomb over and over and the Sims just don't show that.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Probably due to the recent change to RPPM trinkets... they proc more reliably at the beginning of the fight, and I guess a fully buffed NT is quite the beast. Also explains why the difference grows as gear (=trinkets) gets better.
    It has very little to do with the trinkets and more just of the scaling of NT. The scaling of NT with haste and spell power is much greater then that of Frost Bomb. At lower gear levels Frost Bomb can be better, but once you start getting getting those extra ticks of NT that is when the scaling takes off and NT does significantly better.
    Last edited by Leviatron; 2013-03-16 at 08:04 PM.

  6. #6
    Elemental Lord Polarthief's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Probably due to the recent change to RPPM trinkets... they proc more reliably at the beginning of the fight, and I guess a fully buffed NT is quite the beast. Also explains why the difference grows as gear (=trinkets) gets better.
    Seeing as how Frost Bomb can't trigger LotC or BoH, I'd say that influences it as well (seeing as how both LotC and BoH are our BiS for Pre-T15 and T15).

    Also, FB can trigger poorly on a mob far away from others. NT doesn't.

    Furthermore, FB doesn't scale in DAMAGE with Haste (just in executions), whereas LB scales half as much, and NT gets the full amount.


    Regardless of this DPS increase, FB will still be best on Tortos

    Progression pre-nerfed: [T17] 6/7H; 0/10N

  7. #7
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielBrems View Post
    Probably due to the recent change to RPPM trinkets... they proc more reliably at the beginning of the fight, and I guess a fully buffed NT is quite the beast. Also explains why the difference grows as gear (=trinkets) gets better.
    Partially, but not fully.

    It also takes a snapshot of any other buffs/procs that you have. And it is (intentionally or not) snapshotting our shatter and mastery bonus when targets are frozen, which is a considerable PvP scaling issue that doesn't help too much in PvE and should probably be looked at. In PvE though it does artificially inflate our numbers on fights with adds that can be frozen (see my damage on Horridon).

  8. #8
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    I didn't go into full detail in the first post as I was keeping it simple.

    The 1% difference in 535 BiS gear was using wushoolay/cha-ye so I could compare with frost bomb. If you use wushoolay/breath of the hydra with nt the difference is about the same as the 522 BiS (1.3%).
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    I didn't go into full detail in the first post as I was keeping it simple.

    The 1% difference in 535 BiS gear was using wushoolay/cha-ye so I could compare with frost bomb. If you use wushoolay/breath of the hydra with nt the difference is about the same as the 522 BiS (1.3%).
    You can't simply rely on SimCraft. I learned that once I joined a more serious guild then my previous. There are simply no Patchwerk fights anymore and Frost Bomb requires you to stay still to cast. The more you move the less of a window you have to cast Frost Bomb where as NT is instant. Since you have tested the Sims look closely at the amount of Frostfire Bolts casted. From my very old Sims that I use to do Frost Bomb use to come out with an average of 15% more procs, which is where the difference in damage came from. The fact is though that NT can net the same if not more even in a Patchwerk fight and Sims have yet to show that.

  10. #10
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levoriana View Post
    You can't simply rely on SimCraft. I learned that once I joined a more serious guild then my previous. There are simply no Patchwerk fights anymore and Frost Bomb requires you to stay still to cast. The more you move the less of a window you have to cast Frost Bomb where as NT is instant. Since you have tested the Sims look closely at the amount of Frostfire Bolts casted. From my very old Sims that I use to do Frost Bomb use to come out with an average of 15% more procs, which is where the difference in damage came from. The fact is though that NT can net the same if not more even in a Patchwerk fight and Sims have yet to show that.
    Good advice to the casual reader but I assure you everyone who has posted in this thread so far knows this very well already
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Good advice to the casual reader but I assure you everyone who has posted in this thread so far knows this very well already
    Then why start a thread about the difference between NT pulling ahead just now on Simcraft? When Akraen, myself, and many others have been using NT for far much longer then what the Sims have said about Frost bomb?

  12. #12
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levoriana View Post
    Then why start a thread about the difference between NT pulling ahead just now on Simcraft? When Akraen, myself, and many others have been using NT for far much longer then what the Sims have said about Frost bomb?
    Because its nice to know that simcraft now reflects reality?

    Or perhaps because simcraft isn't completely useless?

    Just because people do things differently to simcraft doesn't mean it has no place in our toolkit.
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  13. #13
    the difference between NT and Frost Bomb is so little that it clearly is fight-dependant. You are moving a lot? take NT. 12 mobs are stacked up for the hole fight? take Frost Bomb.
    It is wrong to say either one is best.
    It is correct to say that in a specific situation one is better than the other.
    akraen stated (especially in the last few days) in which situations NT is the best choice and i totally agree with him

  14. #14
    NT is only pulling ahead now people have better gear. I noticed right around I lvl 490-500 NT is simply superior in most situations to FB.

  15. #15
    So what is the best way to work alter time in our burst rotation using NT? Assuming start of the fight, our options would be;

    1) Wait for BF proc and hold it until 2 FoF procs (hoping that all happens while trinks etc are still up)
    2) Satisfy yourself with 2 procs of anything, 2 FoF's, or 1 BF & 1 FoF (again, hoping trinks are up)
    3) forget it and just pop AT when all your trinks and Jade Spirit are above 6 seconds. Take whatever procs you got.

  16. #16
    Bloodsail Admiral Nathyiel's Avatar
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    To respond to some question :
    The proc rate is favourable to NT, the more haste, the bigger the gap. I don't have my number here (file is at work) but if I remember correctly, it result in more than 1 proc per minute.
    The damage number is in favour to FB, but the gap is fix (or increase very slowly).
    Conclusion : With more haste, when the FFB gain is superior to the damage Gap, NT is better than FB. But there's the rest of the rotation would be influenced by this.

    With the change to R-ppm, they all receive a 5% buff to proc rate and a change to guaranteed a proc at pull and less random.
    For comparison, NT versus FB need to be done without Hydra.

    Final conclusion :
    If NT versus FB don't show a big gap (1% in single target). It don't change the fact that NT is better because it can be cast on move and is more useful on multi-doting.
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  17. #17
    Warchief Akraen's Avatar
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    Exactly Nathyiel. I think the math to model NT's overall utility and what it adds to the rotation would be pretty complex.

    Regardless of what sims use, I intend to use Heroic Wushoolay's & Heroic Breath of the Hydra with Nether Tempest. People are welcome to follow my lead or try something else, but that's what I intend to use for maximum DPS in every situation

  18. #18
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akraen View Post
    Exactly Nathyiel. I think the math to model NT's overall utility and what it adds to the rotation would be pretty complex.

    Regardless of what sims use, I intend to use Heroic Wushoolay's & Heroic Breath of the Hydra with Nether Tempest. People are welcome to follow my lead or try something else, but that's what I intend to use for maximum DPS in every situation
    That combo has a decent lead in the sims anyway and just makes the most sense to use. They're the easiest to get too.

    For normal I'm going to use wushoolay/volatile talisman.
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