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  1. #261
    Blizzard decided that thay have LFR now for casual and bad players so normals and heroics can be harder this time. Of course the amount of raiders drasticly dropped, but the content is much better for people who enjoy challange.
    my PSN ID - Kobold_Rider

  2. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    you find many players who feel that dealing with a set group and scheduling isn't worth it.

    Don't expect a change in the trend anytime soon.
    I agree with this portion of your statement. I think LFR is probably more convenient for people's schedules. Not everyone has the time they had 6-8 years ago to invest in being a part of a heavy raiding guild. Don't get me wrong, it would be nice to have that kind of free time to play a video game for hours a day, but most folks have full time jobs (sometimes 2 jobs) and real life responsibilities that just impede the efforts of standard raiding. Is LFR an AFKLOLStoodInTheFireLAWLFest? Yes. Does it allow individuals to raid around their schedules? Yes.

    I don't know that this feature will ever go away, nor am I positive regular raiding will ever again be what it once was.
    Looks like I will be flying in Draenor after all

  3. #263
    I'm wondering if Blizzard really thought through the implications of higher raid difficulty on normal and heroic modes.

    I see difficult raids going the same way as difficult 5 mans: into challenge modes that give only vanity rewards.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  4. #264
    Where is the horn that was blowing? They have passed like rain on the mountain... Like wind in the meadow. The days have come down in the west, behind the hills... Into shadow.


    On a more related note - No clue. I haven't been able to find a stable high-activity guild since Wrath of the Lich King. I was entirely guildless throughout most of Cataclysm and only recently got back on the raiding scene. It's... Different, for sure. Cross-guild poaching is more prevalent and less applications in the forums. I guess it's simply an effect of people growing bored or outgrowing World of Warcraft.


    Bread is the paper of the food industry.
    You write your sandwich on it.



  5. #265
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    More people are raiding now than ever. They're just raiding through the LFR tool where they don't have to adhere to a specific schedule or commit to more than they feel they want to. Guilds still exist and it's still most fun (and rewarding) for social players to raid with a guild, but for those who only joined guilds because it was the only way to raid there's a way to do it with random people on your own schedule and as often or little as you want.

    Are you really surprised the number of raid teams in guilds and the number of raid guilds in general have dropped? I've joined (and quickly left) a few guilds who were ENTIRELY people who treated interacting with other guildies like a necessary chore to get the shiney raid loot. Of course LFR is going to be a better choice for them.

  6. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by Vokal View Post
    The focus of the game, from the perspective of the majority of the playerbase and the devs themselves, seems to be actively and increasingly moving on from guild-oriented raiding towards other things like dailies, pvp, 5mans, LFR, pet-battles, etc etc.

    You can only play the game you love a certain way for a limited amount of time after which you either seek another way to play it or just out and out seek a new game.

    I for one am glad that this is happening and is resulting in the devs working on other parts of the game that have long needed attention but never recieved enough of it to matter, such as pvp.

    I am all for this new direction of the game, and if a few raiding guilds must die to make room for this new breed of players that will be taking the game forward then so be it. Why not?
    So what you're saying is that they're taking the "multiplayer" out of MMO because we've been there, done that? You say that's a good thing, but I suspect a lot of people would disagree with you. WoW without guild oriented activities is no longer an MMO. At that point, it basically becomes Fable with PvP.
    <WHAR LEWTS PLZ HALp>
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  7. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    So what you're saying is that they're taking the "multiplayer" out of MMO because we've been there, done that? You say that's a good thing, but I suspect a lot of people would disagree with you. WoW without guild oriented activities is no longer an MMO. At that point, it basically becomes Fable with PvP.
    I suspect a lot of people don't realize they disagree with that. People are constantly clattering all over new MMO forums asking that they "kill the trinity" because they want to be able to "do it all" and "because it's archaic". TOR got hit HUGE for not having cross-server queues for multiplayer activity at launch. Sure, players still want to group with other players for stuff (I mean, it's an MMO right?) but more the way they group up in COD (where it's just a chance to show off) than actual community building from more traditional online games.

    We've seen the effects of that design philosophy, though they're blamed on just about everything from "epic gear isn't epic" to "content used to be hard" instead. The reality is that cross-server queues made groups more available, but it also prevents new, meaningful connections from being made. At best you're going to make a friend for a 1/2 hour. Ultimately, playing along-side the same people day after day and depending on them to perform necessary actions your character is completely incapable of keeps you coming back to a game the way faster queue times never could.

  8. #268
    -LFR for people who want to see content

    -Normal for people who want to progress with their guild

    -Heroic for people who want to really be challenged


    A flawless, neat little system where everything fits into nice little boxes. There is something for everyone.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  9. #269
    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    So what you're saying is that they're taking the "multiplayer" out of MMO because we've been there, done that? You say that's a good thing, but I suspect a lot of people would disagree with you. WoW without guild oriented activities is no longer an MMO. At that point, it basically becomes Fable with PvP.
    They're taking the multi-player out because it seems to be what a lot of the player base asks for.
    Benevolence is a luxury for the strong - Wrathion

  10. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    So what you're saying is that they're taking the "multiplayer" out of MMO because we've been there, done that? You say that's a good thing, but I suspect a lot of people would disagree with you. WoW without guild oriented activities is no longer an MMO. At that point, it basically becomes Fable with PvP.
    Pretty sure "multi-player" and "guild" are not synonyms.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  11. #271
    I think LFR accomplishes what it sets out to do, which is allow people to play the game like a regular video game. You log on for 2-3 hours a week, steamroll your way through LFR, and you did see the bosses and the zones, and don't feel like you are either left out or have to play 10+ hours a week. This is very obviously an excellent business model, as it has stopped the bleeding and then some of WoW subscribers. I think the biggest problem has been the tuning of LFR-->Noramals-->Heroics.

    It makes sense that LFR means Normals can be harder, but to date thay haven't found that good balance point.

    -T13 was

    LFR-->Normals------------>Heroics in difficulty. Post nerfs, LFR took longer and was more difficult than normal mode, which our 6/7H Firelands guild cleared in 6 hours.

    -T14 was

    LFR------------>Normals-->Heroics in difficulty. This mean LFR was just a time sink every week, and Normal mode left a LOT of people behind, while the guilds really looking for a challenge in heroics didn't notice much of a difference.

    -T15 is apprears to be
    ------LFR----->Normals--->Heroics in difficulty. The LFR feels more in line with where it should be (the stacking buff is a great idea) but Normals still feel too hard. And I love heroic raiding. At some point I think they will get a better feel where the "sweet spot" of raid balance is and we will see a tier that is more like

    ----LFR---->Normals------>Heroics. That will let LFR exist for those that don't much care for the slower progression and effort of a real raid, while not frustrating the middle-tier Normal guilds as badly. Heroics are about right overall and have been for a while.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 02:04 PM ----------

    Another way they could help get more Regular mode guilds running smoother would be to separate the progression paths. Currently its

    Blue Heroics -> T14LFR -> T14 -> T15LFR -> T15 if you aren't doing heroics. So for us, everybody has to run LFR to get geared for T15 even though we were 4/16H and cleared 16/16 for a month before ToT. That is a lot of extra time per week both outside of raids compared to the last 3-5 tiers of raiding. And people HATE that. It makes the most hardcore people happy to see "progression" intact, but it makes people who just want to raid frustrated enough to quit. Almost everyone I know who has left in MoP was directly due to their inability to raid competitively without spending tons of time outside raids times playing WoW. Has been a lot of people.

    Tuning T15 to T15LFR numbers was just a flat out bad decision. Progress path should be:

    Blue Heroics -> T14LFR ---------> T14 --------> T15 ----->T16
    Blue Heroics -> T14LFR-------->T15LFR------>T16LFR

    And tune the Normal tiers to the initial iLvl of the past normals, not the Heroics/new LFR. Just leaves too many players in the dust (and they quit raiding). If the T15LFR dropped 496 loots and ToT was tuned to 490+, everybody in my guild would be much happier. And I bet that is not a unique opinion to us.
    Last edited by calanos; 2013-03-19 at 06:08 PM.

  12. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by Crym View Post
    We've seen the effects of that design philosophy, though they're blamed on just about everything from "epic gear isn't epic" to "content used to be hard" instead. The reality is that cross-server queues made groups more available, but it also prevents new, meaningful connections from being made. At best you're going to make a friend for a 1/2 hour.
    As long as folks realize that not everybody needs to wants to make friends in game. I realize that it's different for everybody, but I've never considered anyone in game a friend. More like an acquaintances with common interests. It would be different if I were playing with RL friends, but that was never the case.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  13. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    -LFR for people who want to see content
    -Normal for people who want to progress with their guild
    -Heroic for people who want to really be challenged
    A flawless, neat little system where everything fits into nice little boxes. There is something for everyone.
    A stupid, mindless little system, you mean. You know, world is not really covered in two colors - black and white. Where do that people belong, whose skills are too good to farm mindless LFR, but too bad to run new tier normal modes?
    First, LFR in no way can take place of any organized raiding. Basically, it is a solo content. Why do you think LFR lacks healers all the time? Because why do any player have to do triple the job as a healer if he can spec DD and slack all the way up to the very last boss?
    Second. Normal modes were for casual progression of organized raid groups. Nowadays it is definitely not, due to overtuning. The big and shiny middles have nowhere to go and nothing to progress. In fact, normals now are designed for hardcore raiders, which is absurd, because heroic modes are also designed for hardcore raiders who jump through normal in one week after launch, and then raid heroics. Do you see how bad is your logic now?
    To be honest, there is nothing really new that wow is loosing subs every month slowly but stable. It was a very strange decisions devs made while constantly loosing subs to overtune normal modes of raids. Now lots of people who wants to raid can not do that due to large stone wall every new boss is. Which obviously leads to faster loosing more subs. Whoever did that decision, good job, genius.
    Last edited by l33t; 2013-03-19 at 10:56 PM.

  14. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    A stupid, mindless little system, you mean. You know, world is not really covered in two colors - black and white. Where do that people belong, whose skills are too good to farm mindless LFR, but too bad to run new tier normal modes?
    To be honest, there is nothing really new that wow is loosing subs every month slowly but stable. It was a very strange decisions devs made while constantly loosing subs to overtune normal modes of raids. Now lots of people who wants to raid can not do that due to large stone wall every new boss is. Which obviously leads to faster loosing more subs. Whoever did that decision, good job, genius.
    we would raid if it was easy.. if T14 is to hard for you, better stick to LFR.
    Problem with players in WoW they are all are obsessed with gear and want everything, but honestly if you're bad a game you never win, you should realize that.
    my PSN ID - Kobold_Rider

  15. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    we would raid if it was easy.. if T14 is to hard for you, better stick to LFR.
    Problem with players in WoW they are all are obsessed with gear and want everything, but honestly if you're bad a game you never win, you should realize that.
    Next time try to actually read the post before commenting, okay?
    Or, if you are so stubborn pro elitist, point my nose in a place in my post where I claim we are obsessed with gear and want everything.
    Claiming that every organized group who have troubles with overtuned normal modes must burn in hell and rot in lfr is the stupidest thing I've ever read here, you know.
    Last edited by l33t; 2013-03-19 at 11:09 PM.

  16. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Next time try to actually read the post before commenting, okay?
    Or, if you are so stubborn pro elitist, point my nose in a place in my post where I claim we are obsessed with gear and want everything.
    I wasn't talking directly to you, just in general. if you're bad - stick to LFR, raiding is not for you, and don't whine for Blizzard to nerf it that every random guy who always stay in fire could beat it.
    my PSN ID - Kobold_Rider

  17. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by nemro82 View Post
    I wasn't talking directly to you, just in general. if you're bad - stick to LFR, raiding is not for you, and don't whine for Blizzard to nerf it that every random guy who always stay in fire could beat it.
    Lol you surely don't see the problem here. If only I was a random idiot who dies in a fire... I won't write here if that was true.
    I'm, of course, not the Big And Shiny Elitist as you. I am raiding since BC. I was good enough to do WotLK and Cata raids full normal and 50%+ heroic/hard modes in actual time. I was good enough to raid t14 11/16 hm. And BAM! Suddenly I'm too bad to raid normal t15? Even more, whole my raid group suddenly became too bad to raid normal t15? Magically in one patch night we became baddies for no reason, lol? Cool story.

  18. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Pretty sure "multi-player" and "guild" are not synonyms.
    Think so? I'm not so sure. Continuing relationships are a huge part of what makes a game multiplayer in my opinion. "Multiplayer" and "Guild" may not be synonyms, but "multiplayer" and "community" are. When the majority of the player base is spending the majority of their time by themselves or in fleeting interactions with people they'll never come in contact with again, you erode community and degrade your multiplayer status.

    If most player's time in WoW consists of solo dailies, solo farming games and a couple hours a week in LFR with people they'll never see again - how is that multiplayer? Take out guild raiding and the only multiplayer aspect of WoW would be organized PvP. And I'm not even sure that would count, since you and your buddy doing 2s is only "multiplayer" in the technical sense of the word.
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  19. #279
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    Think so? I'm not so sure. Continuing relationships are a huge part of what makes a game multiplayer in my opinion. "Multiplayer" and "Guild" may not be synonyms, but "multiplayer" and "community" are. When the majority of the player base is spending the majority of their time by themselves or in fleeting interactions with people they'll never come in contact with again, you erode community and degrade your multiplayer status.

    If most player's time in WoW consists of solo dailies, solo farming games and a couple hours a week in LFR with people they'll never see again - how is that multiplayer? Take out guild raiding and the only multiplayer aspect of WoW would be organized PvP. And I'm not even sure that would count, since you and your buddy doing 2s is only "multiplayer" in the technical sense of the word.
    You do realize, historically, VERY FEW people have raided at any point in the history of the game. I mean... really, at it's highest points, like when ICC was super nerfed for a long ass time, or DS was super nerfed for a long ass time, even then, very few people raided. Something around 20-30% of players, total, IIRC, killed a single boss in those. And that's at their HIGHEST POINT. Not many people raid. What you find valuable in the game, clearly, most of the players do not. The sense of community that people pine after is something they're looking at through tunnel vision, and ignoring the rest of what happens in the game for the sake of what's better for themselves, and that is a pretty big problem.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 11:33 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Lol you surely don't see the problem here. If only I was a random idiot who dies in a fire... I won't write here if that was true.
    I'm, of course, not the Big And Shiny Elitist as you. I am raiding since BC. I was good enough to do WotLK and Cata raids full normal and 50%+ heroic/hard modes in actual time. I was good enough to raid t14 11/16 hm. And BAM! Suddenly I'm too bad to raid normal t15? Even more, whole my raid group suddenly became too bad to raid normal t15? Magically in one patch night we became baddies for no reason, lol? Cool story.
    That's a thing with the elitists, they're so.... I don't know the word for it! Either you're good, or you're bad. Usually, if you're not raiding, and never have raided, you're defacto bad. Or if you complain about anything at all in terms of difficulty? Bad. If things were so simple, the design philosophy of the game would be a hell of a lot different, rather than being a sliding scale of difficult content.

  20. #280
    Epic! Felarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Lol you surely don't see the problem here. If only I was a random idiot who dies in a fire... I won't write here if that was true.
    I'm, of course, not the Big And Shiny Elitist as you. I am raiding since BC. I was good enough to do WotLK and Cata raids full normal and 50%+ heroic/hard modes in actual time. I was good enough to raid t14 11/16 hm. And BAM! Suddenly I'm too bad to raid normal t15? Even more, whole my raid group suddenly became too bad to raid normal t15? Magically in one patch night we became baddies for no reason, lol? Cool story.
    t14 11/16 heroic ? And you can beat normal tot...strange. I end t14 with same progress and we should lcear normal tot in this week. Imo for someone who could for example spirit kings, will of emperor or amber shaper on heroic, ToT normal is a cake

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