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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Mad_Murdock View Post
    How are you defining "interaction" ? Do I need to speak to a person ? Just see them ? By seeing them I need to do something or change something ? all of the above ?
    I'd like to know the answer to this as well. I tend to think that most players interact with other players to some degree, be it LFD, LFR, being in a guild or just killing rares on the Isle.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  2. #322
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Well one, it is not raiding.
    Groups of 6 or more players are raids, and they're in an instance that can handle a group of larger than 5 players, making it a raid instance, and they're killing bosses, so they're raiding.
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  3. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    Oh yes. You're totally allowed to make an ass of yourself. That is definitely your God given right. Feel free to continue. lol
    I'm not making an ass of myself for calling you out over your idea that "continuing relationships" are important in a multiplayer game. In any case, WoW continues to provide ways for people to have those kinds of relationships while at the same type allowing people to not bother with it at all.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  4. #324
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    LFR has nothing to do with seeing content.
    True.

    LFR has everything to do with keeping raids coming as end-game content.
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  5. #325
    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    I would prefer to see the “multiplayer” aspect of WoW stay more like WoW and less like SC2.
    Well, you're right it's a bit subjective based on the game. From what you wrote, it sounds like you're applying Multiplayer to mean the same as MMO. And that's where I would split the hairs. I've played First person shooters for many years before ever loading up WoW (or any MMO) Counter-Strike had a fairly strong and large community in it's day and still has a very surprising large player base given it's 15 years old. Before the internet, we played on LANS and it was still consider "Multiplayer", because the basic definition was that you had multiple players in the same game at the same time. Your interaction was killing the other guy and if you so desired, you typed something out to heckle them.

    Now it seems everyone wants to add on to what it means to be a Multiplayer game and what MMO really means. Even today, most all First preson shooters can't support more than 64 people at a time. So any game that can have several hundred to a couple of thousand people on the same server is a MMO. Where I think many people add too much, is this notion that in order to be a MMO, is that I must be forced into interacting with hundreds of people daily else it's just a single player game. As usual, it's the extremist that muddy the water too much.

    In the real world, I can fly from ghost town Montana to ghost town Russia, along the way I can come in contact with 15,000 people (at the airports alone), I'm not required to have any real interaction with them at all. Oddly in WOW, if I choose not to interact with more than 3-4 people, I'm some how a loner, anti-social, nut job. Yet, I'm 99% confident that same label isn't applied in my travels from Montana to Russia
    Last edited by Mad_Murdock; 2013-03-20 at 05:03 PM.

  6. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    I'm not making an ass of myself for calling you out over your idea that "continuing relationships" are important in a multiplayer game.
    Correct. As stated, there's nothing wrong with debating opinions. That's why we're here. You're making an ass of yourself for telling someone they shouldn't share their opinion, then sharing your own as though it were the end all of everything and then having a signature that states in part, "Opinions are not fact". Duh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Either give an argument, or be automatically wrong. Your choice.

  7. #327
    I'll probably replay WoW soon, but I wouldn't have stopped raiding if I could've raid Normal/Heroic mode without forfeiting my life.

    Blizzard just doesn't understand.

  8. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by I-like-chocolate-milk View Post
    Its none of what any of you guys said so far .

    Its Blizzard putting more and more effort into the game .

    Why make new raids when u can have same raid with more difficulty levels ? It kills the excitement , the "new" feeling .
    Oh its the same crap as LFR only with more hp and an extra spell , oh and lets make him do more dmg , yesssss , that will be great .

    So why should i bother with normal and hc ? i already seen the content , there's no point doing it again on a "harder" difficulty , there's nothing new to see . And besides , all that loot wont make any difference, since when the next tier comes the LFR loot will be on par if not better than normal gear from the last tier .

    This is why people are raiding less and less .

    Also leaving aside all of that , most of the old players left the game , leaving behind a sea of new players that dont know and probably will never know what real raiding is .
    so much this

  9. #329
    Daily quests, me and quite a few people I know completely stopped playing due to them.
    Ain't no chuch when you're living in the wild

  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Personally I view it more as a hobby like playing soccer or football. Those are games where you too have to depend on others being there to play with if you want to play a game. And yea you depend on them if you are going to play a game against another team. And you show up for the team sometimes even if you would rather stay home and read a book.
    Personally i think that raiding schould be a player organised team game. LFR is terribly convenient but it is just a hollow single player experience. When you pay for an play an mmo I think that there schould be some multiplayer related experiences with other people. Paying for a subscription for what essentially is a single player game just feels dumb.

    So yea social interaction is actually kind of great instead of being a loner freak in a basement paying for playing a single player game.

    Where you are right is that now a days the only people raiding are those going for hardmodes. For people raiding for normals there is no real room the recruits they used to have find it more convenient just to see the content through LFR and they know fully well that whatever gear they might farm anyway in normal mode is going to be worse than the LFR gear from the next raidinstance.
    Just because you're insecure and need constant social interaction doesn't mean everyone feels the same. Multiplayer means multiple players, it doesn't mean you have to be tied to the same people and live by their schedules. If I hop on Halo, by myself, and play several games online, that's multiplayer. It's no different in this.

  11. #331
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Groups of 6 or more players are raids, and they're in an instance that can handle a group of larger than 5 players, making it a raid instance, and they're killing bosses, so they're raiding.
    You know full well what he meant even if you disagree. If not then I genuinly feel sorry for you.
    Personally I agree fully. LFR ain't raiding. And while opinions on that differ, I can only assume that the reason for that is: people who genuinly feel LFR is raiding haven't raided heroic or raided in Vanilla/TBC content while it was current. Sure exceptions may exist.

  12. #332
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    LFR ain't raiding.
    Not true, and the definition of raiding isn't up for debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    People who genuinly feel LFR is raiding haven't raided heroic or raided in Vanilla/TBC content while it was current.
    The definition of raiding isn't up for debate, and, I raided heroic during WotLK and think LFR is raiding.
    Last edited by Firebert; 2013-03-20 at 07:02 PM.
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  13. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    You know full well what he meant even if you disagree. If not then I genuinly feel sorry for you.
    Personally I agree fully. LFR ain't raiding. And while opinions on that differ, I can only assume that the reason for that is: people who genuinly feel LFR is raiding haven't raided heroic or raided in Vanilla/TBC content while it was current. Sure exceptions may exist.
    I wasn't going to reply to this thread until I saw this.

    This is such an ass hat response it's not even funny. I consider LFR raiding as it is the only raiding I have time for due to real life constraints. I have been raiding since the only raids were when Scholo and Blackrock Spire were "raids." I have also been in high ranking guilds and posted high ranking parses in "Vanilla"(which is a stupid name), TBC and WotLK. This idea that the definition of raiding is subjective is stupid. I just don't understand how someone can honestly go and tell someone they aren't doing something because it isn't the same way they are. That'd be like me telling my brother he's playing TF2 wrong because he only plays in pubs and doesn't do tournaments. It's completely asinine.

    And yes I see your exceptions may exist sentence, it doesn't remove the fact that what you said is idiotic.
    Last edited by Moistmuffins; 2013-03-20 at 07:04 PM.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    Correct. As stated, there's nothing wrong with debating opinions. That's why we're here. You're making an ass of yourself for telling someone they shouldn't share their opinion, then sharing your own as though it were the end all of everything and then having a signature that states in part, "Opinions are not fact". Duh.
    What the hell are you on about? I never once stated nor even implied you, or anyone else shouldn't express their opinion. I'm not perfect and say a lot of things people can argue with. But, FFS, people can have the courtesy to at least call me out on things I actually wrote, not some made up nonsense.

    And as far as sharing my own, just like you, it's MY opinion. I don't need to include the words "in my opinion". Most people are going to figure out it's an opinion not a declaration of the one true way. Not ALL people, apparently.

    Let's be clear on something. I completely disagree with your opinion about "continuing relationships" being important. As I said before. I don't need game friends. I've never considered anybody I've met in game to be a friend. I would feel differently if I knew someone personally, but in game friendships (IMO, YMMV, ETC) tend to shallow and fleeting (IMO, YMMV). That said, WoW has plenty of opportunity to develop continuing relationships. Guilds aren't going anywhere anytime soon. The precise reason is that different people need different things. There will always be people who want the stability of a guild.

    In the end, the game is what someone makes of it and people have to make peace with the fact that the game is never going to be what it was "back in the day". Make the best of what it is now, or find another game that suits better.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  15. #335
    A point I would like to be made clear regarding Looking for Raid. One, it is not actually raiding. Typically it's group that is formed into a cesspool, the cesspool then zergs a boss. There is no team work, people are usually ignorant to others , sometimes in the most vile ways. It is not about seeing 'content", people can't even say that any more with a straight look on their face. LFR is so players can get loot the fastest, easiest way possible and in turn, have fooled themselves into believing LFR is 'raiding".

    You will see the worst of people in LFR, you will never ever see the best out of people. LFR is the opposite of raiding. So to be blunt, if you do LFR and have been arguing in this thread about that being your 'raid"...stop it. It is not raiding. Let's stop calling it raiding. Think of a new name. Maybe "looking-to get-loot-easy-while-being-a-dick -to-others". Too long maybe.

    I did say BC was the pinnacle of raiding, I still stand by that. It was great, I loved it, others loved it (even casuals). In today's market, there can be made room for casuals at the start. They then will learn if raiding is for them and continue on..or not. Either you want to raid for real or you want to pretend. If you want to raid and think LFR is raiding, you are only fooling yourself.

    Again, raiding is:

    A group of people getting together to do something bigger than usual, it feels epic and rewarding.

    Ok so you want to raid but cannot commit the time, if you can't do 2 nights a week then raiding is not for you. Do not drag down the rest of the population. I’ve always saw this as bullshit any way. I’ll see people who say they can’t commit a little bit of time to raiding but then are in LFR on various alts 5 nights a week.

    Raiding should be an option but not anyone’s right to be able to be coddled like a child through content. Anything worth doing should be at least some sort of commitment, but that percentage of people who need instant gratification and “gimme” attitudes really hold back the original intent of what Blizz tried to capture with raiding.

    There will be those that feel the journey and payoff should mean something and those that want it spoon fed to them. There will always be this imbalance but the RIGHT thing to do it obvious. You want to raid then fucking raid, do not turn it into some bullshit of dragging content down to the lowest skill set and/or work ethic. Do not need to cater to the top 10% either but come on...it’s fucking raiding.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    You know full well what he meant even if you disagree. If not then I genuinly feel sorry for you.
    Personally I agree fully. LFR ain't raiding. And while opinions on that differ, I can only assume that the reason for that is: people who genuinly feel LFR is raiding haven't raided heroic or raided in Vanilla/TBC content while it was current. Sure exceptions may exist.
    Does the label really matter? If some portion of the players consider it raiding, that's fine. That doesn't mean anyone has to agree with it.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  17. #337
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    A point I would like to be made clear regarding Looking for Raid. One, it is not actually raiding.
    The definition of raiding is not up for debate. LFR is raiding because there are more than 5 people in a zone that allows more than 5 people in it. Anything else is you trying to draw an arbitrary line between what is raiding and what isn't.

    To prove that the definition of raiding isn't arbitrary, I'm going to move the line all the other way and say that unless you get the World First Heroic achievements, you're not raiding. Clearly that's very silly, so you shouldn't be drawing a line at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Raiding is: A group of people getting together to do something bigger than usual, it feels epic and rewarding.
    LFR fits under that definition. Larger than a 5-man Heroic, epic if you've never raided before and rewarding via epics for clearing content.
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  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Ok so you want to raid but cannot commit the time, if you can't do 2 nights a week then raiding is not for you. Do not drag down the rest of the population. I’ve always saw this as bullshit any way. I’ll see people who say they can’t commit a little bit of time to raiding but then are in LFR on various alts 5 nights a week.
    How about... NO?

    Don't tell people raiding isn't for them when a lot of people spend 2,3, 4 or more nights a week raiding in previous expansions. Personally, I raided 2 or 3 nights a week since the later part of classic through the later part of cataclysm. I put my time in and I think it's pretty awesome that I can still see new raids, get a little bit of (inferior) gear and have some fun. All without having to spend "2 or 3 nights a week" anymore.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 12:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    There will be those that feel the journey and payoff should mean something and those that want it spoon fed to them. There will always be this imbalance but the RIGHT thing to do it obvious. You want to raid then fucking raid, do not turn it into some bullshit of dragging content down to the lowest skill set and/or work ethic. Do not need to cater to the top 10% either but come on...it’s fucking raiding.
    You do realize LFR isn't going anywhere, yes? The old days are gone and they aren't coming back.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    The definition of raiding is not up for debate. LFR is raiding because there are more than 5 people in a zone that allows more than 5 people in it. Anything else is you trying to draw an arbitrary line between what is raiding and what isn't.

    To prove that the definition of raiding isn't arbitrary, I'm going to move the line all the other way and say that unless you get the World First Heroic achievements, you're not raiding. Clearly that's very silly, so you shouldn't be drawing a line at all.


    LFR fits under that definition. Larger than a 5-man Heroic, epic if you've never raided before and rewarding via epics for clearing content.
    Ok, so that may be your version of raiding and I explained my version of raiding. I suspect my version is a much more realistic and accepted version. In the Wow reality of what the past has been in regards to raiding. I would also argue that LFR just plain offends many who have actually raided and that your version of raiding is just very unrealistic. Which deep down, you know this.

  20. #340
    this thread has so many comments that actually make sense, and so many more that are just so stupid and ignorant it makes me sad.

    as someone who USED to raid hardcore in TBC when I was a TEENAGER and a little through wrath, who now goes to college and has to work and has a boyfriend... I'd have to say it's because I can't commit to a schedule to raid and I don't know when I'll have the time. that said, I do enjoy raiding and I wish I could, so I do LFR and it let's me see things and experience them, even if easier, and get a little enjoyment out of raiding that way.

    you can blame all the raiders being 'gone' on whatever you want, there is no single thing or cause and if you think there is then you're just hating for no reason on things because you dislike them. Is me doing LFR because I want to take the easy way more than the normal/heroic way? No, it's because I CAN'T commit to anything more.

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