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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Herecius View Post
    Anecdotes be anecdotal! Kil'Jaeden-US is positively exploding with raiders. The number of 25man raiding guilds is actually going up here.
    It starts to be less anecdotal when the evidence provided by wowprogress suggests that there are, indeed, less overall raiding guilds. While there are likely to be several servers that are likely to be exceptions, the overall numbers tell a different overall story.

  2. #542
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondlem View Post
    I don't think raiding should be designed to interest people who have no interest in raiding just by baiting them with loot. That, again, is what LFR is for. Raiding should be designed for people who like to raid, much like pet battles should be designed for people who like pet battles. That's how you make a good game that caters to the needs of its players, not by saying "hey, you're going to hate this, but do it anyway because it's all we've got".
    So so you realise where the raiders have gone and don't mind that they are gone and don't want to attract more people to raiding. No worries. It's not what the thread is about though.


    I don't know where this absurd myth comes from, but it's simply not true. More than 50% of guilds who have killed a single boss in T14 have killed Garalon, even though he's 9 bosses deep into the tier, and kill rates of course drop off the further in you go. By a percentage of guilds that have reached a boss in T14 vs those who have passed it, Garalon hardly stands out at all. In fact, more people fail to kill Elegon after killing the previous boss than Garalon, and Garalon is killed in larger numbers than any boss in Terrace, despite the fact there's no gating there due to Shek'zeer being killed in LFR.
    When garalon was current, 75% or something of guilds got stuck on him. Now he's been nerfed, 50% or so of guilds still can't get past him - and i'd like to point out I said "would be raiders" in my previous post. If people who are already willing to wipe a lot can't beat normal mode stuff what hope for the rest of wows population ( the guys who leave after 2 wipes in a HC, LFR or scenario) is there?

    Shits overtuned for the playerbase. (If the aim is to get more people raiding. If the aim is to make raiding an even more niche activity than it already was, then blizzard are achieving their aim.)
    And this isn't taking into account the fact that Garalon, along with every other T14 boss, was nerfed in 5.2 by a significant amount. Even if it was true before it certainly isn't now.
    Not really. The mechanics are still far too complicated to let any newcomers to him down him in a few tries. i.e. it's overtuned.



    How is it a "fact" that normal mode raiders only want to do 6-12 wipes? I provided you an anecdote of my experience in a mega-casual guild in TBC that didn't even raid every week. On my server there are 138 guilds that killed Sha of Fear last tier. I was in pugs and GDKPs that killed it, and some of the easier heroic bosses like Feng, Gara'jal, Elegon and Blade Lord were also regularly pugged. Did all these things happen with under 6-12 wipes? Are these people not normal by some arbitrary standard you decide?
    I didn't say raider, I said players. please actually read my posts properly.
    In ICC there were two difficulty settings. Blizzard needed to tune content to cover all bases. If they wanted to cover a difficulty scale from 1-10, with normal mode Marrowgar at 1 and heroic Lich King at 10, then normal modes would logically span approximately 1 to 5 or 6 and heroics from say 4-5 up to 10. Normal modes needed to be puggable, both in good pugs and bad ones, or players not in a guild would never raid at all, and the process of gearing up for and starting normal modes had to be easy.
    And if you want more raiders to choose from it has to be that way.
    Now there are three modes. LFR comfortably covers the lower end of the difficulty spectrum, covers the people who aren't in an organised guild or can't commit to raiding on a schedule, people who don't want to use voice chat and people who don't want to wipe. Normal mode covers the players in the middle, those who can raid in an organised guild and want some sort of challenge with an appropriate reward but have limits on how far they want to go, either because they are limited by skill or because they are limited by motivation. Heroics are hard. LFR is 1-3, normals 4-7 and heroics 8-10. That's how it should be.
    normal mode raid doesn't cpover those players at all. Normal mode is actually very difficult, as I already said.
    There's a reason why this tier is getting such high praise from all corners of the raiding community, which is that it's the best they've done in terms of balancing the needs of various types of players since Ulduar.
    And the raiding community is getting smaller all the time. Which is why the question in the opening post exists.

    Serving the needs of raiders generaly just pushes out the rest of wows population. Fair enough, but when there is only LFR left because bobby kotick wants everything justified on a dollar for dollar basis I shall think of this thread and smile ruefully.
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  3. #543
    I know a lot have quit because it's been 6+ years for A LOT of the people I know, and that long week after week raiding can eventually get old...even with new content.

    I came back and continue to raid with my RL friends because they make it enjoyable. While my group is basically gearing up for ToT(we started with our consistent group 3 weeks ago), we're having a blast doing T14 because of those around us.
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  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Serving the needs of raiders generaly just pushes out the rest of wows population. Fair enough, but when there is only LFR left because bobby kotick wants everything justified on a dollar for dollar basis I shall think of this thread and smile ruefully.
    My point is that the "rest" of the population of the game isn't being "pushed out", they've been provided with an option that gives them what they want - LFR. Minimal chance of wipes, no need for communication, scheduling, voice communication, guild relationships etc, and it provides the same bosses visually if not mechanically and epic loot roughly on the same tier as normal and heroic modes. Raiders haven't "gone" anywhere, aside from the fact that the population who plays the game is smaller of course. People are just divided more based on their field of interest now.

    Accordingly, normal modes are harder than they were prior to the introduction of LFR, and heroic modes are harder than they were when normal modes were designed for pugs. As someone who has raided heroic content since Blizzard developed the concept in WotLK, ICC was a low point of tuning because there was one challenging boss in the tier, give or take first week Deathwhisper. For a player who wants low-commitment, low-challenge raiding, no doubt something like T11 was a low point because it was hard to pug any raiding content at all, while it was quite a good tier for someone who likes challenging content. Both I and that player have our needs met by present day tuning better than we did in the past, because LFR came into play and pushed everything up a notch.

  5. #545
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondlem View Post
    My point is that the "rest" of the population of the game isn't being "pushed out", they've been provided with an option that gives them what they want - LFR. Minimal chance of wipes, no need for communication, scheduling, voice communication, guild relationships etc, and it provides the same bosses visually if not mechanically and epic loot roughly on the same tier as normal and heroic modes. Raiders haven't "gone" anywhere, aside from the fact that the population who plays the game is smaller of course. People are just divided more based on their field of interest now.
    Right, ok. So the raiders have gone to LFR. We said this already.


    Accordingly, normal modes are harder than they were prior to the introduction of LFR, and heroic modes are harder than they were when normal modes were designed for pugs. As someone who has raided heroic content since Blizzard developed the concept in WotLK, ICC was a low point of tuning because there was one challenging boss in the tier, give or take first week Deathwhisper. For a player who wants low-commitment, low-challenge raiding, no doubt something like T11 was a low point because it was hard to pug any raiding content at all, while it was quite a good tier for someone who likes challenging content. Both I and that player have our needs met by present day tuning better than we did in the past, because LFR came into play and pushed everything up a notch.
    Except that there are no longer any raids for people who can't do cutting edge dps/hps but still want some organised content to go at. i.e. wow now lacks what in other games would be called a "normal mode." it;s either piss easy (lfr) or hard ("normal") or insanely difficult (HC mode)

    And that is where the raiders have gone. Whether you think this is a good thing or not depends on your POV I guess. But, mystery solved.
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  6. #546
    Moderator MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    And the number of people happy with and the number of people complaining combined will still be less than 5% of their customers. So the real issue is not up and down difficulty in normal mode raiding but why they make it all.
    That's a perspective I understand. I think that somewhere in this thread I wrote about whether or not the game would be more or less well-received if there were no raids at all in MoP with the bosses and rooms distributed through two dozen five-mans. It wouldn't be anywhere near the same difficulty of course except for the challenge modes. It's an interesting thought experiment although I'm not saying Blizzard should do this. You have to wonder though whether it would make a lot of players less or more happy overall.
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  7. #547
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Except that there are no longer any raids for people who can't do cutting edge dps/hps but still want some organised content to go at. i.e. wow now lacks what in other games would be called a "normal mode." it;s either piss easy (lfr) or hard ("normal") or insanely difficult (HC mode)

    And that is where the raiders have gone. Whether you think this is a good thing or not depends on your POV I guess. But, mystery solved.
    WoW lacks beer league. Or something equivalent to beer league softball teams. In Wrath on weekends all we did was beer league raiding and it was great and I literally did it drinking beer. Fantastic. Now we que for lfr and get put with strangers but if we try and organize for the normals it's not fun because the instance design and difficulty is so poor.


    Again I'm all for some challenging bosses and I'm all for heroic mode raids but why did normals have to get so difficult this expansion?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-23 at 05:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Gondlem View Post

    There's a reason why this tier is getting such high praise from all corners of the raiding community, which is that it's the best they've done in terms of balancing the needs of various types of players since Ulduar.
    This tier is getting praise from a hardcore minority that equates difficulty with a good raid. That wasn't what made Ulduar or Icc of any of peoples favorite raids great. ToT is more like Sunwell. A fraction of the player base and a fraction of the raiding player base saw Sunwell and I'm ssure they praised it. That is however not saying much.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-03-23 at 05:35 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    This tier is getting praise from a hardcore minority that equates difficulty with a good raid. That wasn't what made Ulduar or Icc of any of peoples favorite raids great. ToT is more like Sunwell. A fraction of the player base and a fraction of the raiding player base saw Sunwell and I'm ssure they praised it. That is however not saying much.
    I disagree. Personally, everyone I know in game loves the new patch and its content, from hardcore raiders to the most casual. Obviously there's always going to be people whining on the forums, and there was during Ulduar too, but I've played this game a long time and it's been a long time since I saw such generally positive assessments of a content patch. There's way more to do in the world than there has been in a while, and ToT itself is the best raid zone they've done in a long time. The tuning, the bosses, the mechanics, the look of the zone and the atmosphere are all top notch. Consider running ToT as an experience and compare it to Dragon Soul for instance. There's a world of difference in terms of quantity and quality of new content. And for once it's not just one or two encounters that stand out, like in ICC and Firelands which both had one memorable boss.

    I do think Sunwell was a great content patch as well though, the island was a ton of fun and the raid zone was great. ToT is a lot more accessible though and I think given a bit of time a significant portion of the raiding playerbase will clear it, similar to last tier. The main difference to recent periods of time in terms of the transition into this tier is that they didn't do a complete gear reset, so players who didn't clear/farm T14 normal modes will need to gear up some more before they can comfortably clear T15 normal modes. That's an adjustment for some players, but it'll be far better for the game in the long run than making every tier obsolete when the new one is released.

  9. #549
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Raids always bored me out of my mind. I swear, in my experience 3/4 of the time spent in raids was waiting for stragglers to show up, listening to someone explaining boss strategy in droning monotone, discussing loot distribution, etc etc etc. I switched to LFR at first opportunity and not looking to go back to Normal raiding any time soon. Furthermore, my server is dead.
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  10. #550
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    People finish their studies and get a proper job. It's hard to raid 3-5 nights per week, with Fridays and Saturdays off like most guilds, when you can't guarantee attendance. I don't really know in advance when there's a social after-work event that pops up, or when I have to put in overtime to finish a deadline project. In the end, I just quit the game altogether, not because I was tired of it (perhaps just a little bit), but mainly because raiding is all I enjoy doing in WoW. No matter what everyone claims, LFR is never a substitute for NM/HM raiding, they are 2 entirely different beasts. LFR is about exploring the content, no raiding guild raids because they want to see the content.

  11. #551
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    People finish their studies and get a proper job. It's hard to raid 3-5 nights per week, with Fridays and Saturdays off like most guilds, when you can't guarantee attendance. I don't really know in advance when there's a social after-work event that pops up, or when I have to put in overtime to finish a deadline project. In the end, I just quit the game altogether, not because I was tired of it (perhaps just a little bit), but mainly because raiding is all I enjoy doing in WoW. No matter what everyone claims, LFR is never a substitute for NM/HM raiding, they are 2 entirely different beasts. LFR is about exploring the content, no raiding guild raids because they want to see the content.
    LFR provides alternative path for character progression, that does not require huge time investment and tight schedules.
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  12. #552
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondlem View Post
    I disagree. Personally, everyone I know in game loves the new patch and its content, from hardcore raiders to the most casual. Obviously there's always going to be people whining on the forums, and there was during Ulduar too, but I've played this game a long time and it's been a long time since I saw such generally positive assessments of a content patch. There's way more to do in the world than there has been in a while, and ToT itself is the best raid zone they've done in a long time. The tuning, the bosses, the mechanics, the look of the zone and the atmosphere are all top notch. Consider running ToT as an experience and compare it to Dragon Soul for instance. There's a world of difference in terms of quantity and quality of new content. And for once it's not just one or two encounters that stand out, like in ICC and Firelands which both had one memorable boss.

    I do think Sunwell was a great content patch as well though, the island was a ton of fun and the raid zone was great. ToT is a lot more accessible though and I think given a bit of time a significant portion of the raiding playerbase will clear it, similar to last tier. The main difference to recent periods of time in terms of the transition into this tier is that they didn't do a complete gear reset, so players who didn't clear/farm T14 normal modes will need to gear up some more before they can comfortably clear T15 normal modes. That's an adjustment for some players, but it'll be far better for the game in the long run than making every tier obsolete when the new one is released.
    Sound great. however, as most people can't compare running ToT with anything (because they can't actually run TOT beyond maybe jinrokh because tot is overtuned) it's a bit worthless as a comment.

    Patch is great, the new isle and the dailies and world bosses, mini bosses etc - all top drawer. Tot normal mode, overtuned, too difficult and frustrating. If I were to compare it with DS i'd say jinrockh is a great example of morchok 2.0 and then afterwards it all becomes a mess. It's not a difficulty curve so much as a difficulty cliff.
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  13. #553
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    LFR provides alternative path for character progression, that does not require huge time investment and tight schedules.
    Raiding is all about teamwork, solving the collective puzzle and gathering the loot reinforcement afterwards. All LFR does of those 3 is offering loot, and it doesn't even reinforce social play. Character progression by mindlessly zerging utterly dumbed down versions of virtual puzzles that normally require coordination and teamwork to solve is no character progression at all. It's the lab rat pressing a lever to receive a dose of sugar water. It's shallow to the core.

    It does show you the content, that is what LFR is for IMO, and it does a good job at that.

  14. #554
    I equate LFR to living single. No commitments and enjoy whatever time you have to do what you want. Comparing a raiding guild to that of a relationship you have to maintain and cultivate in order to get what you want. For me, one relationship is enough to keep track of. I enjoy playing with people and spending my time efficiently in game so LFR is the best thing for me now. LFR is just an evolution of where this game is headed but a tad too easy. Personally, I think that you should be able to raid in LFR and scale difficulty appropriate to the group that you have and get corresponding rewards.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Patch is great, the new isle and the dailies and world bosses, mini bosses etc - all top drawer. Tot normal mode, overtuned, too difficult and frustrating. If I were to compare it with DS i'd say jinrockh is a great example of morchok 2.0 and then afterwards it all becomes a mess. It's not a difficulty curve so much as a difficulty cliff.
    Like I said, they intentionally avoided a gear reset which is going to be an adjustment for a lot of players. Mechanically there's nothing challenging in normal mode ToT until at least Durumu, but you will need decent gear to meet the dps checks on Horridon and Council. People are meant to farm T14, which is frankly a joke with a 10% nerf and 496/522 gear available on vendors, from crafting etc. Once your average ilvl is approaching the 500 mark, which should be fairly easy with a combination of 496 normal mode T14 gear with upgrades and the new 522 pieces everyone can get, those early bosses aren't particularly challenging. Especially not now that they reduced the difficulty on Horridon and Council.

    It is possible to fail at them though, which is a good thing, since normal modes are meant to be the content for non-heroic raiders until next tier.

  16. #556
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondlem View Post
    Like I said, they intentionally avoided a gear reset which is going to be an adjustment for a lot of players.
    Indeed. Already I can see the start of the awful and toxic TBC atmosphere of guild hopping and guild feeding coming back. progression raiding was shit then and it will turn out to be shit now as well - unless you are one of the cutting edge the whole process benefits at the expense of everybody else.
    Mechanically there's nothing challenging in normal mode ToT until at least Durumu, but you will need decent gear to meet the dps checks on Horridon and Council.
    That ain't true. Even jiroch has a few one shot mechanics which preclude taking average or lower end players.
    People are meant to farm T14, which is frankly a joke with a 10% nerf and 496/522 gear available on vendors, from crafting etc. Once your average ilvl is approaching the 500 mark, which should be fairly easy with a combination of 496 normal mode T14 gear with upgrades and the new 522 pieces everyone can get, those early bosses aren't particularly challenging. Especially not now that they reduced the difficulty on Horridon and Council.
    Yeah, people are "supposed" to farm stuff they have already failed at. They won't want to do that and why would they?

    People didn't fail at T14 because of the numbers, it was because of godawful mechanics such as garalon.
    It is possible to fail at them though, which is a good thing, since normal modes are meant to be the content for non-heroic raiders until next tier.
    it is possible for one person to have a derp moment and wipe everyone else, which is (here we go again) bad design for normal modes.

    Basically tot normal requires the sort of performance from everyone that DS HC did. I understand the underlying processes and I am finding it fun with my main raid but it's all a bit meh if you have to wade through it. It's very meh for those people who want to raid but just aren't much good. (i.e. half the would be raiding population) they have no home at the moment.

    And one final thing - that cool, fun guy who everyone likes but can't play very well? He can't raid now. Same with the casual folks who can play well but haven't go ttime to farm gear. Theres no carrying, no leeway. Toxic for socal guilds, really.
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  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    People didn't fail at T14 because of the numbers, it was because of godawful mechanics such as garalon.
    Garalon is mechanically challenging? The only challenging part about the fight when we did it Nov 9th was beating the 7 minute enrage with ~480 ilvl (we're a normal mode guild who didn't clear any MSV heroics until December). With 496 ilvl and a 10% nerf to the boss, he should be doable by even a below average group. If your guild still can't clear T14 normal mode with a 10% nerf and gear well above what the bosses drop, it's a L2P issue, not a tuning issue.

    I have to agree with Gondlem that this tier is one of the best tiers ever released, and I'm super casual compared to him. If you're "stuck" on a normal mode, especially after nerfs (Horridon, Council of Elders, and Megaera were all recently nerfed), it's time to look at your players, not Blizzard's tuning.

  18. #558
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    it is possible for one person to have a derp moment and wipe everyone else, which is (here we go again) bad design for normal modes.
    Seriously?
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  19. #559
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Garalon is mechanically challenging?
    Yes, it's mechanically chalenging. LFR is still wiping on it, even now, never mind normal modes.
    The only challenging part about the fight when we did it Nov 9th was beating the 7 minute enrage with ~480 ilvl (we're a normal mode guild who didn't clear any MSV heroics until December). With 496 ilvl and a 10% nerf to the boss, he should be doable by even a below average group. If your guild still can't clear T14 normal mode with a 10% nerf and gear well above what the bosses drop, it's a L2P issue, not a tuning issue.
    My guild cleared T14 before the patch.
    I have to agree with Gondlem that this tier is one of the best tiers ever released, and I'm super casual compared to him. If you're "stuck" on a normal mode, especially after nerfs (Horridon, Council of Elders, and Megaera were all recently nerfed), it's time to look at your players, not Blizzard's tuning.
    I'm not stuck on normal mode.

    However, loads and loads of other people are. Garalon was a complete cock block for 50-75% of all raiding guilds back when he was current. He still is, 45% of guilds still haven't got past him, post nerf. And that's raiding guilds - the better end of players to begin with.

    When the majority of people who try something fail at it, it's time to look at the design.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-24 at 02:14 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Seriously?
    Yes, absolutely. Theres no good reason for a normal mode raid to have one shot raid wiping mechanics that more or less anyone can trigger, except for arguably the final bosses.
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  20. #560
    There are more people raiding than ever before.

    LFR.

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