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  1. #581
    Quote Originally Posted by brainwashed View Post
    hit the preverbial nail on the head here mate .....
    While I agree with this as a casual....I'd love to raid but I can't fit most raid schedules..... It turns back into keying/gating for most guilds as far as recruiting goes.

    The officer in me says "this is a great recruiting tool"
    The casual raider in me says "meh"

  2. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    I think the problem is the number of people who are actually interested in raiding was never to big to begin with. I personally find normal raids insanely boring. I'm not a raider. Thing is, before I was FORCED into raids because there was no other way to advance my character beyond a certain point. I think this might have been the case with a lot of players - they didn't raid because they loved it, they raided because it was the only way to get gear past heroics.
    If you do not raid you have no need for gear past heroics.


    Lawful good does not always mean Lawful nice

  3. #583
    This thread is still going o.o.

    Simple fact:

    When WoW launched and for the first 3-4 years it was totally filled with people around ages of 17-25, generally people that arent done with studies, of course there were people like 25-35 that already had their lives settled down.

    Those people grew up..WoW hasnt had any real blood for a few years now, the newest generation is not interested the least about MMO's, its all about MOBA's (LoL mostly) because they are free and dont require any time, and MMO's are generally judged as "Nerdy" even more than before, 8 years ago, even if the genre wasnt that new, it was still "unknown" while RTS and FPS reigned the gaming market (Warcraft 3 and CS).

    Old blood has newly found responsibilities or got bored of the game, the new blood is not enough..There is your raiders missing.

    Old blood is still playing, just not interested in actual raiding anymore..LFR is all we need nowadays and we are happy

    At least the guys i know:

    30 or so guys that i played or raided with over the years.

    4 or so are playing with me right now, we only level alts, gear them up in LFR and try to farm mounts, we cant have a schedule based around "Be online at this times to raid" anymore, we are exhausted.
    5 or so guys bought the game when it launched, played the first 2 months (Game card) and they are waiting for the next expansion.

    The rest 20 mock the 10 of us for still playing/buying the last 2 expansions simply because they are so bored of the game that some are growing to hate it.

    And yes, i do see all 20-30 of them regularly, some work or still go at the same net cafes even after all these years, or the same coffee places and generally, Greek cities arent that big even if we are 1.5-2mil people or so in my city :P

    Now from the other end..All the people i know that already had proper lives like married and with a job when WoW launched, are still playing and raiding 4 times a day clearing heroics and shit and amazes me!. Of course myself i only know like 3 of them which by now they are like 38-40 while they were 30 when WoW launched but hey..They didnt have exams, drunkness and start a family/job to do, they were already past those when WoW launched :P


    TLDR: Raiders grew up, have responsibilities now, most are bored of the game, those that arent just use LFR to watch the raids, there is no new blood to fill all those university student/raiders that grew up.
    Last edited by potis; 2013-03-29 at 04:44 AM.

  4. #584
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    This thread is still going o.o.

    Simple fact:

    When WoW launched and for the first 3-4 years it was totally filled with people around ages of 17-25, generally people that arent done with studies, of course there were people like 25-35 that already had their lives settled down.

    Those people grew up..WoW hasnt had any real blood for a few years now, the newest generation is not interested the least about MMO's, its all about MOBA's (LoL mostly) because they are free and dont require any time, and MMO's are generally judged as "Nerdy" even more than before, 8 years ago, even if the genre wasnt that new, it was still "unknown" while RTS and FPS reigned the gaming market (Warcraft 3 and CS).

    Old blood has newly found responsibilities or got bored of the game, the new blood is not enough..There is your raiders missing.

    Old blood is still playing, just not interested in actual raiding anymore..LFR is all we need nowadays and we are happy

    At least the guys i know:

    30 or so guys that i played or raided with over the years.

    4 or so are playing with me right now, we only level alts, gear them up in LFR and try to farm mounts, we cant have a schedule based around "Be online at this times to raid" anymore, we are exhausted.
    5 or so guys bought the game when it launched, played the first 2 months (Game card) and they are waiting for the next expansion.

    The rest 20 mock the 10 of us for still playing/buying the last 2 expansions simply because they are so bored of the game that some are growing to hate it.

    And yes, i do see all 20-30 of them regularly, some work or still go at the same net cafes even after all these years, or the same coffee places and generally, Greek cities arent that big even if we are 1.5-2mil people or so in my city :P

    Now from the other end..All the people i know that already had proper lives like married and with a job when WoW launched, are still playing and raiding 4 times a day clearing heroics and shit and amazes me!. Of course myself i only know like 3 of them which by now they are like 38-40 while they were 30 when WoW launched but hey..They didnt have exams, drunkness and start a family/job to do, they were already past those when WoW launched :P


    TLDR: Raiders grew up, have responsibilities now, most are bored of the game, those that arent just use LFR to watch the raids, there is no new blood to fill all those university student/raiders that grew up.
    You were right up until you mentioned younger people are not interested in MMO's, and they are viewed as nerdy.

    Not only is this incorrect, but all the analytical data available or ever released from publishers states the opposite. In general, gaming on your PC is viewed as nerdy. Not specific games. 90 percent of young people don't know anything about computers, let alone the games on them.

    League of Legends has more players because it's a game that can run on a toaster, is made so a baby can play it, and is free. Not because all young people are into it, but because all young people are poor.

    World of Warcraft doesn't have new players because the barrier to entry is gigantic. Go pick a brand new server where you know nobody, have no friends. No imagine leveling 1-90 without knowing anything about the game, without knowing about any of the websites. Imagine trying to friend a group of people to play with. You would end up joining one of the 50 guilds that spams you with an invite due to an addon within the first 10 seconds of creating a character. From there you will be completely confused because nobody helps, nobody talks, everyone just trolls. Not to mention you won't know anything about the expansions, you won't know which ones to buy, what order they go in, you will know nothing.

    World of Warcraft is virtually impossible to get into as a new player if you never experienced it before or have people helping you.

    Titan is being designed from the ground up not only to counter this, but to give both casual players and I am sure, hardcore players things to do.

    Theme-park MMO's are also a thing of the past. Most new MMO's coming out are Sandbox, and we have seen Minecraft grow larger than World of Warcraft while being an ugly 100 percent Sandbox adventure game.

    People want to do what they want to do. They don't want to continue down the linear path some random developer wants them to.

    The fact is, WoW is shrinking. It will never die, because WoW has made so much money it could stay alive forever with 100k players. That said, it will continue to shrink every year until most people jump ship and go to another game. When Titan comes out, and when Titan is announced this year, World of Warcraft becomes number #2 at Blizzard. #2 for advertising, #2 for development, #2 for everything.

    A new article just came out, and it's posted both on Reddit and Neogaf, stating PC gaming has up to 1 billion players, and games like D3, Guild Wars 2 and Minecraft helped boost the total players last year to reach 1 billion. Many of them are casuals, the article explains, but at least 250 million are "core gamers".

    What does this tell us? It tells us there is an absolutly gigantic market of PC gamers that have never been touched. There is still a game out there that could pass League of Legends, but nobody has made it yet. It doesn't mean someone is in the middle of making it though.

    To sum it up, MMORPG's are not dying, the genre is not dying, World of Warcraft is dying. 90 percent of servers are empty, the 10 percent that have people, all but 3 are completely unbalanced, so at least one faction is virtually dead. WoW has been out many years, and it's simply time to move on. The genre as a whole, has more players than ever. More and more we see new MMO's come out and actually have sustainable player basis.

    People just need to come to terms with the fact, that in a couple years, World of Warcraft will no longer be a premier MMO. It doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. It doesn't mean there won't be servers that last another 10 years. It just means it will fade away similar to the way EQ has or even Ultima. No matter what industry you look at. From tech to business and the arts, the company/person/technology that is ontop, never stays ontop. Something comes along that is better, and surpasses it. This is what is happening to WoW. The sooner people understand this fact, the better.
    Last edited by Titan; 2013-03-29 at 05:13 AM.

  5. #585
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    Not only is this incorrect, but all the analytical data available or ever released from publishers states the opposite. In general, gaming on your PC is viewed as nerdy. Not specific games. 90 percent of young people don't know anything about computers, let alone the games on them.
    Now this is half false. 90% of young people play, but on mobile phones and to lesser degree on consoles. A gaming PC is a too big of an investment. So they play facebook games and angry birds, and do not particularly view it as nerdy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    World of Warcraft doesn't have new players because the barrier to entry is gigantic.
    Yes, but then, why new MMORPGs can't gather up people as well? Rift has failed to do so (then again, it was probably too niche), SWTOR, GW2 etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    Theme-park MMO's are also a thing of the past. Most new MMO's coming out are Sandbox, and we have seen Minecraft grow larger than World of Warcraft while being an ugly 100 percent Sandbox adventure game.
    You mean all that new stuff that will crash SWTOR-style? Yeah, some of it is sandbox
    Then again, TES doesn't look that sandbox, and neither is GW2, and probably neither is Titan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    The fact is, WoW is shrinking. It will never die, because WoW has made so much money it could stay alive forever with 100k players. That said, it will continue to shrink every year until most people jump ship and go to another game. When Titan comes out, and when Titan is announced this year, World of Warcraft becomes number #2 at Blizzard. #2 for advertising, #2 for development, #2 for everything.
    You simply don't know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    A new article just came out, and it's posted both on Reddit and Neogaf, stating PC gaming has up to 1 billion players, and games like D3, Guild Wars 2 and Minecraft helped boost the total players last year to reach 1 billion. Many of them are casuals, the article explains, but at least 250 million are "core gamers".
    Yes, reddit is a very reliable source of information. /facedesk

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    What does this tell us? It tells us there is an absolutly gigantic market of PC gamers that have never been touched. There is still a game out there that could pass League of Legends, but nobody has made it yet. It doesn't mean someone is in the middle of making it though.
    Of all those 1 billion PCs, a lot of them can't run something bigger than WC3 or LOL (which is why those games are so popular in Asia).
    So yeah if someone makes a game like this it better run on all those computers, but it probably won't be an MMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    To sum it up, MMORPG's are not dying, the genre is not dying, World of Warcraft is dying. 90 percent of servers are empty, the 10 percent that have people, all but 3 are completely unbalanced, so at least one faction is virtually dead. WoW has been out many years, and it's simply time to move on. The genre as a whole, has more players than ever.
    Okay, now this is just stupid. Look at this graph: http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/TotalSubs.png
    Do you see a dramatic increase in MMO subs? Right, there isn't any. All those new MMOs coming out crash like a piece of crap in the upcoming months (and if unlucky, with the company that made it), and their number don't take off past several 10^5s. If you look at F2P MMOs, the picture will certainly be better, but that business model doesn't take very well in EU (and probably in US either).

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    People just need to come to terms with the fact, that in a couple years, World of Warcraft will no longer be a premier MMO.
    http://www.thedailyblink.com/comics/2013-02-08-417.jpg , enough said

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  6. #586
    There have been
    ~63000 raids doing Dragonsoul (and ~53000 clearing it on normal)
    ~42000 raids doing Mogu'shan Vaults
    ~34000 raids doing Heart of Fear
    ~20500 raids doing Terrace of Endless Spring
    ~19000 raids doing Throne of Thunder
    (source: http://www.wowprogress.com/)

    My conclusion. Raiding is in trouble and the number of raiders has been dropping like a stone in this expansion.

    I blame two things.
    For casual players doing damage and healing correctly has become too complex (the gap between a faceroller and a elitist jerks informed good player with same gear is extreme) and the encounters also get too complicated.

    I know, the good players and the hardcore players will now yell "it's not so hard, learn to play" but you can't ignore the numbers and if you would look past your own good raidgroup you would quickly realise that many players have not developed more skill than they had during vanilla WoW. And there the encounters (except Naxxramas) where pretty simple and doing damage and healing was also pretty easy.

    I think the developers listen too much to the very vocal minority of progress oriented skilled players that get bored with 3-button chars while the silent majority is perfectly happy if they only need to press three buttons and can concentrate on the TWO specials the boss is doing. Right now they have to manage 10+ buttons for dmg/heal and pay attention to the 3+ phases and 5+ abilitys of the boss. That's not fun for many people who still think this is a game and not a serious job or competition.
    Last edited by Kryos; 2013-03-29 at 02:02 PM.




  7. #587
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    There have been
    ~63000 raids doing Dragonsoul (and ~53000 clearing it on normal)
    ~42000 raids doing Mogu'shan Vaults
    ~34000 raids doing Heart of Fear
    ~20500 raids doing Terrace of Endless Spring
    ~19000 raids doing Throne of Thunder
    (source: http://www.wowprogress.com/)
    You must be very careful with Cata data. First of all, DS was quite simple on normal (esp. the first boss), was around for a year and had a good catch-up mechanic leading to it (4.3 5-mans + VP gear + LFR), as well as a progressive nerf system that ended at 30%. Consequently, it is not that surprising it was done by a lot of people. If you look at Firelands for example, you will get 64279 guilds downing the first boss until the end of MOP (meaning until ~20 sept 2012), which was easier with DS gear. If we look at the MSV figures at patch 6.0 chances are they will be higher too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    My conclusion. Raiding is in trouble and the number of raiders has been dropping like a stone in this expansion.
    That's for sure. However, I don't think it all comes down to healing/dps rotation. Rather, it comes down to the rigid time investment required by raiding. If you want to advance in (and farm) a tier with 16 or 12 bosses, you will need a lot of time just to run through it, not to mention progress on new bosses. DS was just 7 bosses and it looks like it was about right for a lot of casual guilds.

    Less and less people can afford 3-4 nights of raiding (which is frankly what you need for a tier that big), so they stick to LFR.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  8. #588
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    You must be very careful with Cata data. First of all, DS was quite simple on normal (esp. the first boss), was around for a year and had a good catch-up mechanic leading to it (4.3 5-mans + VP gear + LFR), as well as a progressive nerf system that ended at 30%. Consequently, it is not that surprising it was done by a lot of people. If you look at Firelands for example, you will get 64279 guilds downing the first boss until the end of MOP (meaning until ~20 sept 2012), which was easier with DS gear. If we look at the MSV figures at patch 6.0 chances are they will be higher too.
    Raiding always took much time. In vanilla and Burning Crusade much more than now. In fact our raid times are half the time we used in vanilla. This can't be the factor. You need to check what changed between then and now and the only thing that really changed is the complexity of the game and the mechanics.

    Compare this fight from a hunters view:

    To this fight from a hunters view:


    click in the middle of the fight and see yourself. Even if you never played a hunter you see the difference.

    And now think of the average player that can't even do a proper dps rotation.




  9. #589
    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    -snip-
    No, just no. I agree WoW may not be the powerhouse sub base it is now in a few years. But for someone claiming to have facts, you make A LOT of wild accusations and assumptions about kids on pcs, Titan, and the mmo market.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    the encounters also get too complicated.
    I think this is true, but less because of the vocal hardcore and more so because of the amount of abilities we have now. Old raiding some classes could heal, some could dps, and the rest just kind of buffed and filled niche roles. Now all classes have lots more utility and tons of CDs. So encounters are designed with these new abilities and CDs in mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  10. #590
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    That's for sure. However, I don't think it all comes down to healing/dps rotation. Rather, it comes down to the rigid time investment required by raiding. If you want to advance in (and farm) a tier with 16 or 12 bosses, you will need a lot of time just to run through it, not to mention progress on new bosses. DS was just 7 bosses and it looks like it was about right for a lot of casual guilds.

    Less and less people can afford 3-4 nights of raiding (which is frankly what you need for a tier that big), so they stick to LFR.
    To progress on LFR takes time too, especially if one is good about capping VP.

    I suspect, if we had access to the stats, we'd find a lot of people with multiple characters going through LFR.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  11. #591
    The raiders are in ToT.

  12. #592
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    To progress on LFR takes time too, especially if one is good about capping VP.

    I suspect, if we had access to the stats, we'd find a lot of people with multiple characters going through LFR.
    I agree. I'm curious why this time investment issue is a problem now when it's been a part of raiding for 8 years.

    LFR is definitely more convenient, but I do wonder what the time investment in LFR is per an account; or the play time for players who exclusively run LFR per week compared to a normal mode raider play time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  13. #593
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    To progress on LFR takes time too, especially if one is good about capping VP.

    I suspect, if we had access to the stats, we'd find a lot of people with multiple characters going through LFR.
    I would agree with that. Since LFR is not really bound to the same strengths and restrictions as Norm/Heroic raiding, it would only make sense that Raiders would take advantage of this system. If nothing more than to get some easy VP and a shot at some upgradeable loot. I have no desire to raid Reg/Heroic, and frankly haven't got that kind of free time. LFR is really the only way for me to play and get to see the raid content for the current tier.

  14. #594
    Quote Originally Posted by skitzy129 View Post
    The raiders are in ToT.
    Less than half the guilds that downed any boss in T14 normal have downed the first boss in ToT.

    If you compare how many guilds had downed Feng at this point in T14, vs. how many have downed Horridon, a decline can also be seen.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-29 at 04:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    I agree. I'm curious why this time investment issue is a problem now when it's been a part of raiding for 8 years.
    I think it's a red herring, not an issue. I think people have plenty of time, but aren't doing normal mode because of the tuning.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  15. #595
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    I agree. I'm curious why this time investment issue is a problem now when it's been a part of raiding for 8 years.

    LFR is definitely more convenient, but I do wonder what the time investment in LFR is per an account; or the play time for players who exclusively run LFR per week compared to a normal mode raider play time.
    People have grown up, gotten jobs, gotten married, had kids, moved away from the game. Those of us left behind are left to handle the next generation. The time sink that is raiding is no longer as important to players as it once may have been. It says alot that 40 man became 25, and that 25 has almost turned into 10s. I would imagine if the trend continues, raids will be 5M regs and 10M heroics just for the convenience. Most players might not have the time to farm/make food/make pots/flasks/ and research. Easier just to stroll into LFR.

  16. #596
    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyJenkins View Post
    Easier just to stroll into LFR.
    LFR is an abonination. I'm in one right now. People have zero clue what to do. It's just stupid and no fun. I only visit it with twinks for some basic loot. I really hate it. It turned raiding into a sad joke and gives people a totally wrong impression what raiding is. I guess anyone who starts with LFR will never want to join a regular raid guild.




  17. #597
    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    LFR is an abonination. I'm in one right now. People have zero clue what to do. It's just stupid and no fun. I only visit it with twinks for some basic loot. I really hate it. It turned raiding into a sad joke and gives people a totally wrong impression what raiding is. I guess anyone who starts with LFR will never want to join a regular raid guild.
    It's not meant to impress "real" or "hardcore" raiders. It is meant for Casuals to raid at their leisure and not feel the pressure from elitists. Nice part about an optional feature is not ever having to use it

  18. #598
    Ive only raided this exp and patch but im having fun but im sure it will get old any game you play will get old in some aspect

  19. #599
    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyJenkins View Post
    People have grown up, gotten jobs, gotten married, had kids, moved away from the game.
    These people have existed since WoWs inception. I played with many friends with families, jobs, and they still found time to raid. Only difference is now LFR is a bite size raid morsel to satiate some former raiders appetites.

    My question is: do players who exclusively run LFR do so because it's more convenient and they have less time to play or just because it's more convenient?
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  20. #600
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    These people have existed since WoWs inception. I played with many friends with families, jobs, and they still found time to raid. Only difference is now LFR is a bite size raid morsel to satiate some former raiders appetites.

    My question is: do players who exclusively run LFR do so because it's more convenient and they have less time to play or just because it's more convenient?
    I think it might be a bit of both. If I can see the content without having to spend 15+ hours a week farming mats/pots/flasks/food/researching/grinding dailies/buying vp gear, why would I bother ever doing anything other than LFR? I think most people are thinking the same way. They raided to see the content. Now they can LFR to see content and not have to abide by some rigid schedule and strict rules set forth by raid guilds. People can now see what they want and do it when it is convenient for them. Gives them more time with their families and less time in a video game. Just my opinion, but I do the exact same thing.

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