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  1. #601
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    Raiding always took much time. In vanilla and Burning Crusade much more than now. In fact our raid times are half the time we used in vanilla. This can't be the factor. You need to check what changed between then and now and the only thing that really changed is the complexity of the game and the mechanics.
    Yes, but the thing is that tolerance to time commitment crashes even faster than the time required for raiding. You're missing that element.
    People are more and more reluctant to invest time in raiding. Raiding time required may be lowering as well, but not that fast.

    Also, some fights in LK were actually equally complex (Mimiron HM and LK HM were not simple as well )

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-29 at 06:11 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    To progress on LFR takes time too, especially if one is good about capping VP.
    I suspect, if we had access to the stats, we'd find a lot of people with multiple characters going through LFR.
    Of course, but LFR can be done in pieces of 3 bosses, whenever you have the time. That's the fundamental difference.

    BC/LK raider ('07-'10)

  2. #602
    I can't believe all the input people have put into this. It tells you that there are still many players passionate about raiding. It also says that some one should go through and see what is on the peoples mind.

    Seems like the down fall of raiding is kind of like global warming. Is it a natural progression or possibly man made? Or how about it may be a combination of both. Regardless there should be something done to at least see if it can be helped before it is to late.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyJenkins View Post
    If I can see the content without having to spend 15+ hours a week farming mats/pots/flasks/food/researching/grinding dailies/buying vp gear, why would I bother ever doing anything other than LFR? I think most people are thinking the same way. They raided to see the content. Now they can LFR to see content and not have to abide by some rigid schedule and strict rules set forth by raid guilds. People can now see what they want and do it when it is convenient for them. ... Just my opinion, but I do the exact same thing.
    Rings true, to me.

    I remember when I first started WoW, a few months before TBC went live, and people were complaining about the time-sink of consumables - because they weren't limited to just two pots per toon during a raid - and how the move to only having one 'battle' and one 'guardian' pot was met with howls of outrage even though it was an attempt by Blizz to improve the quality of life for raiders.

    My biggest reason for never joining a raiding guild was that I had no interest in putting content "on farm" so that people could gear-up. It was bad enough that I would be expected to spend hours learning how to defeat a boss, but then I would be expected to continue to defeat that -same- boss [or series of bosses] while people in the guild waited for the drops they needed to help defeat the next dps/mechanics-check boss. Lather - rinse - repeat.

    LFR eliminates the need to farm a boss for other people's drops.

    You can run an event just enough times to get the upgrades that are available for your toon, and then move on to the next set of upgrades.

    I think it is the skipping of the Later-rinse-repeat cycle for other people's gear that is the attraction for many people in LFR.

    And why wouldn't people be jerks on LFR, when it caters to the "every man for himself" mentality?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-30 at 02:06 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    If you do not raid you have no need for gear past heroics.
    Who said anything about "need"?

    Just sayin...

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-30 at 02:12 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryos View Post
    I blame two things.
    For casual players doing damage and healing correctly has become too complex (the gap between a faceroller and a elitist jerks informed good player with same gear is extreme) and the encounters also get too complicated.

    I know, the good players and the hardcore players will now yell "it's not so hard, learn to play" but you can't ignore the numbers and if you would look past your own good raidgroup you would quickly realise that many players have not developed more skill than they had during vanilla WoW.

    I think the developers listen too much to the very vocal minority of progress oriented skilled players that get bored with 3-button chars while the silent majority is perfectly happy if they only need to press three buttons and can concentrate on the TWO specials the boss is doing. Right now they have to manage 10+ buttons for dmg/heal and pay attention to the 3+ phases and 5+ abilitys of the boss. That's not fun for many people who still think this is a game and not a serious job or competition.
    Exactly what I've been thinking.

    Being a long time solo player, I've been surprised by how much the MoP quests and Dailies are forcing to learn to play my class, in ways the game hasn't previously required me to.

    e.g. the recent daily that required me to interrupt the NPC's self-heal if I was to ever finish killing it.

    Interrupt?

    Heck, I had to google what interrupts a BM Hunter has to find out I needed to talent Silencing Shot instead of Binding Shot, and that the Intimidate skill on my pet was also an interrupt.

    Who knew?
    Last edited by Yseraboy; 2013-03-30 at 02:02 AM.
    I take some solace in the fact that even though my snarky reply to someone's condescending rhetorical question earned me a 1-week ban, my post was not deleted. I was rather proud of that bit of snark, and I am glad it lives on.

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Yseraboy View Post
    Rings true, to me.

    I remember when I first started WoW, a few months before TBC went live, and people were complaining about the time-sink of consumables - because they weren't limited to just two pots per toon during a raid - and how the move to only having one 'battle' and one 'guardian' pot was met with howls of outrage even though it was an attempt by Blizz to improve the quality of life for raiders.

    My biggest reason for never joining a raiding guild was that I had no interest in putting content "on farm" so that people could gear-up. It was bad enough that I would be expected to spend hours learning how to defeat a boss, but then I would be expected to continue to defeat that -same- boss [or series of bosses] while people in the guild waited for the drops they needed to help defeat the next dps/mechanics-check boss. Lather - rinse - repeat.

    LFR eliminates the need to farm a boss for other people's drops.

    You can run an event just enough times to get the upgrades that are available for your toon, and then move on to the next set of upgrades.

    I think it is the skipping of the Later-rinse-repeat cycle for other people's gear that is the attraction for many people in LFR.

    And why wouldn't people be jerks on LFR, when it caters to the "every man for himself" mentality?

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-30 at 02:06 AM ----------



    Who said anything about "need"?

    Just sayin...

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-30 at 02:12 AM ----------



    Exactly what I've been thinking.

    Being a long time solo player, I've been surprised by how much the MoP quests and Dailies are forcing to learn to play my class, in ways the game hasn't previously required me to.

    e.g. the recent daily that required me to interrupt the NPC's self-heal if I was to ever finish killing it.

    Interrupt?

    Heck, I had to google what interrupts a BM Hunter has to find out I needed to talent Silencing Shot instead of Binding Shot, and that the Intimidate skill on my pet was also an interrupt.

    Who knew?
    So basicly you want to play a single play game that rewards you for not knowing what the fuck you are doing...

    Oh well but who cares mmo's are evil and the only we raid for a bigger numbers so we can raid even more to get even bigger numbers.

  5. #605
    oke.. why did u necro this one? (maby not necro but over a week since last post)

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  6. #606
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    because it is a valid discussion







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  7. #607
    Harsh to say but WoW is really showing its age. It has to rely on a basic holy trinity system for fights designed in an engine inspired by pc games from the 1990's. They are running out of fun things to do that we havent done before. That and the long time investment for raiding is getting all the more dull personally when im all the more concious that each raid tier is just a stop gap grind for the next save the world raid, and the one after that, and the one after that and so on...

    Raidings given me good times but its a dull idea that at this point that requires far more free time investment than anything else in the game and your creative freedom as a player is next to zero because you must adhere to your role and the strat with little to no variance. Thats a bygone system from the 20th century that folks are frankly getting sick of. I know i raid a hell of a lot less purely because its getting old and busted and i know im not the only one.

  8. #608
    The Insane det's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dope_danny View Post
    Harsh to say but WoW is really showing its age. It has to rely on a basic holy trinity system for fights designed in an engine inspired by pc games from the 1990's. They are running out of fun things to do that we havent done before. That and the long time investment for raiding is getting all the more dull personally when im all the more concious that each raid tier is just a stop gap grind for the next save the world raid, and the one after that, and the one after that and so on...

    Raidings given me good times but its a dull idea that at this point that requires far more free time investment than anything else in the game and your creative freedom as a player is next to zero because you must adhere to your role and the strat with little to no variance. Thats a bygone system from the 20th century that folks are frankly getting sick of. I know i raid a hell of a lot less purely because its getting old and busted and i know im not the only one.
    Yeah..and then there are scenarios who do away with the holy trinity and people come in and piss on the idea. Then there is game like GW 2 who does away with the holy trinity system..and did it succeed or revolutionise the genre?

    Oh yeah..and I bolded a part for you that counts. At the end of the day, if the old mama of a a gme that apparently shows its age is still holding off all new contender, what does that tell us about all the other games?

    So..let us hear how creative you are. If the holy trinity is outdated and raids are outdated and there are no new ideas...what would you have of an MMO? At the end of the day it is a MMO in a fantasy world. How much can you revolutionize that genre? It like "Oh wait..let us make a run and jump where you don't run or jump"?
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    One cause is a cognitive bias called projection bias. Essentially living inside your own head your entire life makes it exceedingly difficult to understand how others do not also live your same life, think your same thoughts, and hold your same beliefs. In many cases it's quite frustrating to try to empathize and understand why you yourself may not be the center of the universe, which generally results in one 'acting out' in various ways.
    So, in short: the internet.

  9. #609
    My problem with raiding at the moment is that Throne of Thunder is the worst raid I have ever set foot in. I have absolutly hated most of the bosses so far. They are way to complex combined with way to high healing and DPS requirements, the music is terrible and the whole thing is 12 bosses in one line. I'm usually not the one to complain about linear stuff since I actually like some linearity, but 12 in a row in the same instance is just way to much. Durumu has already broken any will I have to even try him and I have wiped only about 10 times on him now.

    I liked Jin'rohk and Megaera but other then those two I can't really see myself liking the bosses in this tier. Obviously haven't experienced everything yet but from videos and such I am not optimistic.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Yeah..and then there are scenarios who do away with the holy trinity and people come in and piss on the idea. Then there is game like GW 2 who does away with the holy trinity system..and did it succeed or revolutionise the genre?

    Oh yeah..and I bolded a part for you that counts. At the end of the day, if the old mama of a a gme that apparently shows its age is still holding off all new contender, what does that tell us about all the other games?

    So..let us hear how creative you are. If the holy trinity is outdated and raids are outdated and there are no new ideas...what would you have of an MMO? At the end of the day it is a MMO in a fantasy world. How much can you revolutionize that genre? It like "Oh wait..let us make a run and jump where you don't run or jump"?
    Well thats the trouble, theres still no viable replacement. Otherwise blizzard would have jumped on it already.

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by freighttrain View Post
    Pure assumption on your part. We know for a fact that the majority of all the sub losses since Cata have been in the East specifically China with banned accounts, players leaving for D3, and people quitting mainly due to their silly time card pay structure. All of the data I have seen shows stable NA/EU accounts where most of the raiders reside.
    Please show me where this data is.

    Its purely speculation which global area all of the 3million who left the game come from. Blizzard has not ever (and probably never will) release the exact data of where all of their subs r from. Asia and China do not even use a subscription system, theyve always used gaming timecards, and consequently Blizzard has always 'guessed' the amount of Asian subs. This is clearly indicated within their conference call data if u actually bother to read it.

    Ru seriously telling me that all of those empty and half dead realms in US and EU r imaginary?

    U will find that a much larger amount of US and EU players (and consequently experienced raiders) have left the game than u think.

  12. #612
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    If you do not raid you have no need for gear past heroics.
    No. Freaking no. The point of the PvE end of this game is to progress your character. Regardless of if you do raids or not. It's why WotLK was so popular. People were able to gear their characters without ever stepping foot inside a raid. And even then raids were made more accessible than ever. Character progression through gearing was exceptionally steady, you would practically be getting at least one new piece of confirmed loot every few days. Gear upgrades were easy though time-consuming to come by.

    THAT'S why LFR has loot. Because at it's core this game is still an RPG and RPG's entail improving your character.

    The only place where this RPG ideal doesn't take hold is in PvP where "improving your character" comes in direct conflict to "improving yourself as a player compared to others".
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  13. #613
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    No. Freaking no. The point of the PvE end of this game is to progress your character. Regardless of if you do raids or not. It's why WotLK was so popular. People were able to gear their characters without ever stepping foot inside a raid. And even then raids were made more accessible than ever. Character progression through gearing was exceptionally steady, you would practically be getting at least one new piece of confirmed loot every few days. Gear upgrades were easy though time-consuming to come by.

    THAT'S why LFR has loot. Because at it's core this game is still an RPG and RPG's entail improving your character.

    The only place where this RPG ideal doesn't take hold is in PvP where "improving your character" comes in direct conflict to "improving yourself as a player compared to others".
    You'd be surprised how many times this has to be repeated, and how many times people simply don't get it. Without character progression, people would be leaving the game in droves. It's part of WHY so many left during Cata (Nothing to do, means not progressing their characters). Character progression is just another form of leveling, and it's the carrot on the stick that keeps this game going for people, and it's why other games often fail because they have little to do at the end.

  14. #614
    age of the game? when i came back for a bit after a break the best guilds on my server were run by children who cared more about recent raiding history than tbc history(imo tbc produced the best raiders and was always what we based our questions off when i used to quiz applicants)

    10s being equal to 25 mans even though the skill level has always been dramatically imbalanced. That change alone broke many 25 man guilds up into their 'best' 10 players who quit out of boredom id suppose.

    Pvp being more imbalance than ever with each patch change hurting more than helping

    world of dailycraft

    game is terribly unfriendly to alts

    idk could go on and on

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    My problem with raiding at the moment is that Throne of Thunder is the worst raid I have ever set foot in. I have absolutly hated most of the bosses so far. They are way to complex combined with way to high healing and DPS requirements, the music is terrible and the whole thing is 12 bosses in one line. I'm usually not the one to complain about linear stuff since I actually like some linearity, but 12 in a row in the same instance is just way to much. Durumu has already broken any will I have to even try him and I have wiped only about 10 times on him now.

    I liked Jin'rohk and Megaera but other then those two I can't really see myself liking the bosses in this tier. Obviously haven't experienced everything yet but from videos and such I am not optimistic.
    We took 50 wipes on Durumu, but the kill was 100% worth it. 10 wipes isn't that many.

  16. #616
    Pit Lord Bryntrollian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darsithis View Post
    I don't think I know what the acronym "tsg" is. It's not RBG's or Arena, random battlegrounds, or any form of dungeon or raid that I can think of. What does it mean?

  17. #617
    The 3 main reasons for less people raiding normal modes:

    1) You can get just as good gear from world bosses and VP. Sure, you'll not get a good weapon , but then it was RNG in normal mode anyway. You can still "see the raid" in LFR, and no longer need to put up with scheduled raid times. This means those "casuals" that normal mode guilds used to fill empty spots in their rosters are no longer available. This also stops you being able to PUG people in /2 as they're all in LFR or doing their daily 5 man. This stops raids from happening as you can't fill that last spot.

    2) The MoP raids have all had serious issues where a typical normal mode guild had to basically out-gear the raid before making any kind of progress. In particular, DPS requirements Garalon and Elegon were serious problems for many guilds, and forced quite a large number to stop raiding. (Sha having a dps requirment is less of an issue as it's the final boss, but anyway...)

    3) Then these normal mode guilds - many of whom never cleared ToES pre-nerf due to DPS requirements being too high - find the 2nd boss into ToT also has highly unforgiving DPS requirements (on the adds). The problem is, that most of the guilds that killed this boss already had killed heroic TOES bosses, and upgraded their gear. For normal mode guilds, this is a problem - they don't have that gear, and the upgrade guy is gone anyway. And so they wipe, and wipe, and wipe some more.

    Now, eventually, Valor and LFR gear will fix this - but this will take several weeks, during which time they'll lose raiders who can't be bothered to do normal mode anymore because of points 1 and 3, and won't be able to replace easily - if they do, the replacement is going to be even worse geared, and so they end up being stuck at point 3. What's needed is 3 or 4 bosses at the start of each raid that DONT HAVE STUPID GEAR REQUIREMENTS. As it stands these just aren't there, and that's what's killing normal mode raiding. Part of the reason WotLK had some many people start raiding was Naxx didn't require super-high gear levels, and could be used to gear up for Uld, and Uld's first boss certainly wasn't a gear check either. You had to get to the keepers before worrying about gear / DPS. That's where normal mode raiding should be - by all means, tune the end bosses to require gear from earlier ones. Problems occur when it's the early bosses that are tuned too high.


    TLDR: Having a high DPS / gear requirement on the last boss of a raid is fine. Having one on the 2nd or 3rd boss is just stupid, as it means you can only gear up from 1 or 2 bosses, and need to outgear the encounter using Valor gear. This kills guilds and is stupid design.
    Last edited by Calaba; 2013-04-08 at 02:46 AM.

  18. #618
    We only have 8000 US raiding guilds left.
    This is down from 28000 guilds in Cata.
    QQ
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven?

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaddriel View Post
    We only have 8000 US raiding guilds left.
    This is down from 28000 guilds in Cata.
    QQ
    And how many were there at the end of Wrath?

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    And how many were there at the end of Wrath?
    38000
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