Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[Slant]

Is this thread still alive? Oh, well... time for some corrections.

If you raid just because of loot, something is wrong with your head. If you think raiding is all about the waiting, go check your psychiatrist for ADS and learn to value the fucking community in your guild. If you raid because of the challenge of killing the next boss, you're doing it right.

Also, minor correction... most people don't realise this, but mechanics haven't gotten more complex. Blizzard's dazzling you into believing they have has become more complex. And the drones are successfully tricked into believing it. In fact, during WotLK or TBC - I don't remember exactly when - there was an interesting thread on EJ showcasing each boss using the same old mechanics they used in vanilla.

I'm almost 100% sure, I could break down every boss in ToT down to no more than 12 basic mechanics from vanilla raiding (apart from the occasional gimmick fight) and have ti successfully explained to a vanilla raider so he knows what to do. Don't let Blizzard distract you from the core of each fight with all the fireworks going on. A bomb is still a bomb, even if it's a ball of lightning, fire is still a bad idea to stand in, even if it's a purple pool of goo and a meteor is still a meteor if you limit it to one group of 5 people meeting up at a predesignated point etc.

The only thing that has increased is the number of mechanics mixed into one fight. But the number of overall mechanics used in boss fights has not increased by very much since vanilla. Talk to your friends about it. Make a fun discussion and try to explain every ToT boss with vanilla bosses, you'll see each fight is actually quite simplistic, once you look behind the fireworks.

Oh, for an advanced raiding group, try to think up new mechanics that are not gimmicks, yet so innovative that they can't be explained with vanilla boss mechanics. I always find it rather difficult. One reason why I'm fairly certain this will never change. There's only so much you can do with the given interface and platform.

[Galaddriel]

learn to value the fucking community in your guild.

What community? The guys that throw you under a bus for a piece of loot or a raid spot? Or the ones that ditch 15 members after they have the top ten geared up?

[Slant]

What community? The guys that throw you under a bus for a piece of loot or a raid spot? Or the ones that ditch 15 members after they have the top ten geared up?

That sounds like you need to change the guild and go somewhere where people are actually interested in raiding. I've always seperated raiders into two kinds of people: 1. People that are truly interested in raiding as an activity, including everything around it, like theorycrafting, organising and basically improving the performance of your group to face the next challenge, 2. Leechers.

The Leechers are the ones that are breaking away most of the time. Everyone has leechers in his group. If the percentage gets too hgih, it's probably not a healthy community. It's your choice if you and your friends want to deal with leechers on a daily basis or play in a group that shares your interest for raiding.

Edit: My jib at people only interested in loot was actually meant for leechers. Not for people like you that complain about leechers.

[Mormolyce]

I'm going to let you in on a secret. Raiding was never fun. We just did it for the loot. I'm not speaking for all raiders, but I'm sure a lot of people would agree. Raiding was a chore. Not boss fights, but all the bullshit around them - waiting for everyone to show up, waiting for ready, waiting for strat explanation, waiting for loot distribution, waiting, waiting, waiting... I swear, for every 10 minutes I spent actually PLAYING during raids, I spent 30 waiting for something.

Yeah this is pretty much true. The 10 minutes were fun though!

[Nazrark]

Since there is a new raid tier. We've successfully gone back to TBC days. Where the majority of players are delegated to run heroics (LFR) and PvP for entertainment. No progression minded guild wants to take in a returning player or help people gear up. They have their core and they raid with them.

Hell, the people in my guild don't want to take the time to read up or learn anything. When 'progress' was killing Spirit Kings a few weeks before ToT. I decided to quit, I love my guild-mates. But if they cannot take the time to do something simple as doing a quick read or watch a video. Why should I bother trying to play.

I have the skill to be a hardcore raider, there is guilds on my realm and others who know I can. They just don't want to go back and do old content.

[Mormolyce]

Also, minor correction... most people don't realise this, but mechanics haven't gotten more complex. Blizzard's dazzling you into believing they have has become more complex. And the drones are successfully tricked into believing it. In fact, during WotLK or TBC - I don't remember exactly when - there was an interesting thread on EJ showcasing each boss using the same old mechanics they used in vanilla.

I'm almost 100% sure, I could break down every boss in ToT down to no more than 12 basic mechanics from vanilla raiding (apart from the occasional gimmick fight) and have ti successfully explained to a vanilla raider so he knows what to do. Don't let Blizzard distract you from the core of each fight with all the fireworks going on. A bomb is still a bomb, even if it's a ball of lightning, fire is still a bad idea to stand in, even if it's a purple pool of goo and a meteor is still a meteor if you limit it to one group of 5 people meeting up at a predesignated point etc.

This is the most ridiculous non-logic... each boss has 12 mechanics for every 1 from Vanilla (which is BS even in itself, Vanilla mechanics were far simpler even compared one-to-one), and you claim this doesn't make it more complex?

Fucking stupid thing to say, there are summonable mobs on the Isle of Thunder that have more complex mechanics than most Vanilla bosses.

[Galaddriel]

That sounds like you need to change the guild and go somewhere where people are actually interested in raiding. I've always seperated raiders into two kinds of people: 1. People that are truly interested in raiding as an activity, including everything around it, like theorycrafting, organising and basically improving the performance of your group to face the next challenge, 2. Leechers.

The Leechers are the ones that are breaking away most of the time. Everyone has leechers in his group. If the percentage gets too hgih, it's probably not a healthy community. It's your choice if you and your friends want to deal with leechers on a daily basis or play in a group that shares your interest for raiding.

Edit: My jib at people only interested in loot was actually meant for leechers. Not for people like you that complain about leechers.

After watching 3 guilds fold or downsize in the last 14 months I don't think I have the heart to go through another trial period-start at the bottom of the totem pole with some other guild that may or may not be around tomorrow.

[Slant]

This is the most ridiculous non-logic... each boss has 12 mechanics for every 1 from Vanilla (which is BS even in itself, Vanilla mechanics were far simpler even compared one-to-one), and you claim this doesn't make it more complex?

Fucking stupid thing to say, there are summonable mobs on the Isle of Thunder that have more complex mechanics than most Vanilla bosses.

No need to get enraged, my friend. Doesn't make me wrong. Show me one mechanic from a current boss that is not a gimmick, and I'll tell you a vanilla boss that uses the same mechanic. The only thing that got more complex is the number of mechancis thrown together. But the overall mechanics available for that mix is the same. When bosses like Geddon used two mechanics (bomb and his own explosion that melees needed to run away from), today's bosses use 10+ of the old mechanics. That is all I said.

[Azaile-]

ive grown up since my time raiding hardcore in vanilla and BC gotten more commitments. but i would attribute more than anything the LFR to my lack of interest in actually raiding. The time it takes to get a group together is a massive down side of trying to lead a raid, but LFR takes care of it for you. If the LFR tool wasn't available i would imagine we would still see higher amounts of pug groups advertising in trade than we do now.

[Slant]

After watching 3 guilds fold or downsize in the last 14 months I don't think I have the heart to go through another trial period-start at the bottom of the totem pole with some other guild that may or may not be around tomorrow.

Yeah, I understand you. That is part of the reason why I stick to my guild 50% full of leechers that make my hair stand on end. Perhaps that is the downfall of the raiding community. People that are interested in raiding simply stop being interested after now almost 10 years. It's sad. But on the other hand, did anyone expect WoW to die quietly like other MMOs? This is one hell of a long struggle for survival and I'd wager it's going to go on for another 5-10 years before anyone turns the final switch off.

[Coldkil]

Imho there are a lot of reasons.

First of all playerbase and gaming habits changed: some time ago was very likely to find people who were committed enough to stay on pc and play for a lot of hours just to farm consumables for raiding, now it's impossible because of lifestyle changes (growing up, work, family) and mentality changes (the entire "i want it all and now" thing).

A lot less people raid now. Most do LFR and they're fine - obviously because the game provides these way of playing.

But being totally honest, if the game hadn't adapted this way, it would have died long ago with only the core playing it - people would get naturally bored if the game stayed the way it was in Vanilla for 8+ years.

I was raiding heroic prgression - never been realm #1 or super high in ranking, but we did the job, just takling more time. Now since i've seen and insanely high amount of drama and it's too much for my needs, after a mass exit/loss of players, we just regrouped and focused on a small 10man raid, no recruiting and no progress. We just do what we can, play 2/3 days a week, have fun.

And we're lucky that the core group is pretty solid. A standard "get together to get #1" guild would have exploded in no time.

[webdonkey]

Maybe people finally realised pve is hard eh?

Move to x when boss does, do y when x casts, stand on z when xy+z moving.

Yes, heroic is a challenge, but the new raids aint, and lfr isnt doing it any good either.

Altho i will never go for it since i hate the fact that im running aroun din lfr items, most casuals think that
just enough for em to feed theyre raiding.

People moved on, thats about it. But seriously, pve is hard eh? C'mon!

[Maoli]

IMO there are less raiders cause you can still enjoy the game without having to raid endgame. I used to raid but I stopped. It was a headache dealing with raid issues when really I just wanted to get loot for my toon for something to do. I hated listening to people complain about loot or wiping to boss mechanics. I just wanted to have some fun killing stuff and getting more upgrades once in a while.

I don't the drop in raiding guild being that big of an issue. WoW has been around a long time and it'll probably continue for a few more expansions atleast. As long as there is a market there will be a Blizzard mmo to enjoy.

[Slant]

PvE can be hard if you want to keep up your personal performance while dealing with boss mechanics. It's not hard at all if all you do is deal with boss mechanics and stop dpsing while doing so. Ask Method and Blood Legion if PvE is hard. Perhaps you should also ask them why the fuck they took two weeks to kill Lei Shen and why Ra-Den is not down, yet, if it's so easy. I'm sure you'll like their response. :P

[Deleted]

Hard to raid if no guild on your server is looking for your class, and even if they were, your gear and experience would not be enough because they are already doing HC modes.

[Mormolyce]

No need to get enraged, my friend. Doesn't make me wrong. Show me one mechanic from a current boss that is not a gimmick, and I'll tell you a vanilla boss that uses the same mechanic. The only thing that got more complex is the number of mechancis thrown together. But the overall mechanics available for that mix is the same. When bosses like Geddon used two mechanics (bomb and his own explosion that melees needed to run away from), today's bosses use 10+ of the old mechanics. That is all I said.

Why do I get the feeling you'll just call any mechanic that's not from Vanilla a gimmick?

Yes they are the "same" mechanics in that Blizzard didn't suddenly change the entire nature of the game. But OBVIOUSLY doing a boss with 10 mechanics is a lot harder than doing one with two.

[Slant]

Why do I get the feeling you'll just call any mechanic that's not from Vanilla a gimmick?

Yes they are the "same" mechanics in that Blizzard didn't suddenly change the entire nature of the game. But OBVIOUSLY doing a boss with 10 mechanics is a lot harder than doing one with two.

I'm not disputing that. I'm disputing the notion that mechanics got more complex. They haven't. The bosses have gotten more complex by using more mechanics at once, sure. But they're still the same old mechanics.

And it actually helps people understand new bosses if you refer to old bosses that way. Hence why I'm saying don't let the fireworks distract you from the fact that a bomb is still a bomb, that a debuff still needs to be decursed, standing in the fire is still a bad idea, dealing properly with adds is still more important than dpsing the boss and ignoring adds (unless you're in a domo style fight where you can ignore them safely), etc.

Take Durumu for example, you'd think the maze is an entirely new concept? Well, for me it isn't. It's just one giant pool of fire that I'm trying not to stand in. I have no problem with the maze, others are overwhelmed by the "new concept" of getting through the maze.

Oh, because it's so fun... take Dark Animus... dealing with the adds in the way they are may seem new, but all I see is a repitition of the Sulfuron fight. I haven't even left Molten Core yet and I've already shown you some similarities.

[WskyDK]

Who's arguing that individual mechanics are harder? Yes, staying out of fire isn't any different that it was 7 years ago.
What people are growing frustrated with is when they layer 10 different mechanics, over 3 phases, with (required boss mods) screaming at me, a raid leader directing,and a somewhat complex rotation. It grows fucking tiresome to do this for even the low 9 hours a week I do it these days.

(Please don't try and convince me your raid group would be successful without bossmods.)

[Vankrys]

I don't understand that thirst of more loots, more gears that people casually call character progression.

My philosophy in MMOs is this

Gear are means to an end, not the end itself.
I feel (and that's just me, everyone is entitled to their opinion) that looting better gear just to collect gear and up your stat is pointless in itself. Ultimately, in a few month, the gear will become outdated anyway, it will end up in the bank and a few years later being sold for a handful of gold.

Gears are tools, necessary to the real goal. The goal is adventure. To take on challenges, raid bosses, heroics dungeons, PVP. Gears are only tools. I do not value gears more than i value a hammer or a screwdriver. What i value is what i can do with those tools.

[Deleted]

Since there is a new raid tier. We've successfully gone back to TBC days. Where the majority of players are delegated to run heroics (LFR) and PvP for entertainment. No progression minded guild wants to take in a returning player or help people gear up. They have their core and they raid with them.

Hell, the people in my guild don't want to take the time to read up or learn anything. When 'progress' was killing Spirit Kings a few weeks before ToT. I decided to quit, I love my guild-mates. But if they cannot take the time to do something simple as doing a quick read or watch a video. Why should I bother trying to play.

I have the skill to be a hardcore raider, there is guilds on my realm and others who know I can. They just don't want to go back and do old content.

I agree very much with you. I recently came back to the game after a break since Cata, hoping to get back into raiding which was my main interest in the game since TBC, especially since I'd heard really positive things about the raids in MoP.

I'm finding a lot of barriers:

* 25 man raiding has shrunk so much. I did 10 man in later Cata and just don't enjoy it, I want to raid 25 man again. I'm not interested in joining another 10 man guild but that's the vast majority of options I have, particularly because I can only raid daytimes or late night. What guilds there are are either too casual or too hardcore, the middle ground 25 mans seem to have vanished.

* 100% attendance requirements. In Wrath my server first guild had a 60% (3 of 5 raids) requirement, enough raiders to run two 25 man raids each week and a sensible rotation system for the main raid. Even though in practice my attendance was about 90%, I loved knowing I had the freedom to sign off if something came up, friends suggested a night out or I just needed a break. It definitely stopped me burning out despite raiding so heavily. Less raiders nowadays means the attendance requirement for each individual has to go up, but so many guilds I look at are threatening that 90% attendance means /gkick and so they're turning off people like me from even applying. Even guilds that claim to be fairly casual and laid back have crazy attendance requirements. I understand why guilds feel they have to do that, but they're significantly lowering their potential pool of applicants. And that server first guild is now a 10 man struggling to field even 10 today, even though they're still server first. Merge servers now plx.

* The gear gap and valor gating. The drop rate in the 5.0 LFRs is great and I was feeling encouraged that I was gearing up well enough to start considering applying to guilds - until someone of my spec with 40 item levels above me turned up in one LFR and showed what 40 item levels worth of more damage is. I'm never going to catch up with that with everything gated behind valor and reputation, I can't see a route in. There are no pugs on my server, and I'm not paying to move to another server to pug ToT or world bosses when I'd have to pay again to move to join a guild I was lucky enough to get into. None of my friends play any more so I can't even try to sneak into their alt runs

I just feel downhearted about the whole thing. I love raiding and I've got a great raid history but I don't see any way of getting back into it, and since that's where my enjoyment in the game is I don't really see the point in carrying on playing.