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  1. #761
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Source? I don't know a single person that went to Rift. I actually bought the Rift expansion and tried it, after having played Rift for most of 2011. The world seemed devoid of other players, and the game controls and graphics felt terrible compared to WoW (the snappiness of WoW's engine is perhaps the single biggest factor in the success of the game.)
    Actually i can back him up.

    While raiding in Rift for about 14 months or so pretty much every raider i had/spoke/met/played with was some sort of either WoW or AoC ex-player with something like 98% WoW players and 2% AoC ones.

    Rift had "a lot" raiders for a new non-WoW game up to at least the first 6 months before it started having a bigger decline with all the newer games coming out and WoW patches etc.

    And awesome engines is usually the main goal for Blizzard since forever, its the reason many people cant jump games easily after a Blizzard one cause the "Cartoonish style" engines are very fluid.

  2. #762
    The Insane Trassk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    What's the point? I raided for 7 years but come mop I can see all the content and "raid" when I feel like it in lfr. But! The main reason I stopped raiding was the fact that bosses are starting to get very boring. Reusing old raid mechanics from fights in years past is not fun. Doing a boss that is doing the same move with a different name that a boss did 4 years ago is bullshit.
    sadly this is it. Boss mechanics really do feel like there recycled moves and mechanics from before. You know exactly what to do on bosses right away because you've seen it all before.
    Blizzard really are running out of ideas. I wish dear god they would have just called off anymore expansions after wrath and just made WC4 or wow2.

  3. #763
    Scarab Lord Belize's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    sadly this is it. Boss mechanics really do feel like there recycled moves and mechanics from before. You know exactly what to do on bosses right away because you've seen it all before.
    Blizzard really are running out of ideas. I wish dear god they would have just called off anymore expansions after wrath and just made WC4 or wow2.
    Well there's really only so mechanics you can do in a game like WoW so of course they're going to be reused. Plus whenever something new happens, like faction champs, EVERYONE hates it because it's not the same old tank and spank deal. Which is ironic imo. I'm not defending raiding it's just a side comment

  4. #764
    I was a pretty hardcore raider for a long time, 6 years, in a US top 100 guild for about 95% of that time. By the time I quit I was so burned out from Cataclysm that I had no interest in trying another game. Once in a while I read this forums to see what's changed, but I guess I am finally at the point of accepting that the game I liked and want to play again won't be coming back. Of the other hardcore raiders I used to play with and still talk to that have quit, about half of the quitters left the game from general burnout and the other half from disliking the direction the game was going in.

  5. #765
    Knowing that tank n spank lfr fights give slightly worse gear than normal mode that actually has mechanics just killed my motivation to raid.
    Bane

  6. #766
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Actually i can back him up.

    While raiding in Rift for about 14 months or so pretty much every raider i had/spoke/met/played with was some sort of either WoW or AoC ex-player with something like 98% WoW players and 2% AoC ones.
    But that was back when Rift released. This thread is about the decline during MoP.

    I doubt many raiders went to back to Rift for the expansion.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  7. #767
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    the snappiness of WoW's engine is perhaps the single biggest factor in the success of the game.
    This is something that I've always struggled to put into words when describing a factor about WoW's engine.

    When I've played other MMOs such as Rift, Aion, TERA, SWTOR and GW2 (A game I very much enjoy, but still have this issue with) I find that my character feels like they're ankle deep in molasses as far as movement is concerned. In WoW I move instantly , I can turn on a dime, ect. Many other MMOs I feel so much more restricted or even delayed in my character's responce to my controls, "snappiness" so do speak.

  8. #768
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millie View Post
    This is something that I've always struggled to put into words when describing a factor about WoW's engine.

    When I've played other MMOs such as Rift, Aion, TERA, SWTOR and GW2 (A game I very much enjoy, but still have this issue with) I find that my character feels like they're ankle deep in molasses as far as movement is concerned. In WoW I move instantly , I can turn on a dime, ect. Many other MMOs I feel so much more restricted or even delayed in my character's responce to my controls, "snappiness" so do speak.
    Also, in newer MMOs, the mod support and general customization to the UI is, to put it nicely, piss poor. That's a factor too. At least for me.

  9. #769
    No game can really compare to WoW in terms of MMO, so most raiders I used to know either play LoL or no games anymore

  10. #770
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Also, in newer MMOs, the mod support and general customization to the UI is, to put it nicely, piss poor. That's a factor too. At least for me.
    I can see that beign an issue for many. I try to stay as standard as possible for my UI, I add things like Weak Auras and stuff but try and keep the elements that already exist in their default state (Bars, frames, ect).

    Games like Rift handled this fine for me as it allowed you to unlock and move any part of the UI by default.

  11. #771
    Quote Originally Posted by Millie View Post
    This is something that I've always struggled to put into words when describing a factor about WoW's engine.

    When I've played other MMOs such as Rift, Aion, TERA, SWTOR and GW2 (A game I very much enjoy, but still have this issue with) I find that my character feels like they're ankle deep in molasses as far as movement is concerned. In WoW I move instantly , I can turn on a dime, ect. Many other MMOs I feel so much more restricted or even delayed in my character's responce to my controls, "snappiness" so do speak.
    I've thought that a big part of the poor reaction the vehicle mechanism got in Wrath was that vehicles didn't have this feel. Press a button on a vehicle and it feels like you're fighting with big padded gloves on. Everything is just slow and laggy, even if that lag is just a fraction of a second.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  12. #772
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But that was back when Rift released. This thread is about the decline during MoP.

    I doubt many raiders went to back to Rift for the expansion.
    The decline exists since early Cataclysm it just didnt show because WoW numbers are really big for the game it is.

    I said the same thing before but people tend to ignore it.

    Old raider blood is completely burnt out of any raiding, and there is no new raider blood because newer generations do not play MMO's cause its not the main genre of their generation while there are newer more flashy MMO's coming out that are free also, they arent as good but they are free, younger people prefer free over anything else, League of Legends proved that.

    As example, WoW became really popular 2006-2008, that generation, and by generation i mean highschool/those finishing highschool went into WoW, cause that was the main game of the period (At least the guys i know from my neighbourhood and schools around me and net cafes all played WoW, of course its area/city/country is different).

    The main game of 2012-2013 is League of Legends, every one and their mother and kids play it, literally.

    Now Tera went F2P , 2 months ago..Suddenly the net cafe 5 mins from my house has 20 people playing it daily out of nowhere, these people barely touched any MMO or know they exist apart from WoW, and they barely touched that also and they are the generation of 2010-2011 (They are 19-20 years old now).

    I have 3 main long existing net cafes near my home that i pass by or know some people in them and i can see exactly what each generation plays.

    My generation of 2003-2004: Diablo 2 1.10/Warcraft TFT and still some forgotten counter strike from 2001-2003.

    2004-2005 was Early Dota/WoW

    2005-2006 Dota/WoW/Private lineage2 servers setup from the net cafe themselves since they were companies and had like 20 shops etc.

    2006-2009 is only Dota/WoW with some CoD:MW when it first came out since it was really good, along with ISSP.

    At around 2010 WoW stopped appearing at the screens and by 2011 it was replaced by LoL completely, no new guys starting the game, those that played it kept playing or restarting after quitting etc.

    Generally out of a pool of 200-500PC's and many failed net cafes only 3 have remained and the only thing i can see on the screens is League of Legends , literally 24/7 with of course some occasional other game.

    Long random post but people need to realize the newer generations are not interested in MMO's anymore only a few of them do and they only go to the flashy F2P ones, and there are your raiders.

    Old ones quit the game all burnt out or cant play anymore and there is no new blood at all.

  13. #773
    Pandaren Monk Freia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Actually i can back him up.

    While raiding in Rift for about 14 months or so pretty much every raider i had/spoke/met/played with was some sort of either WoW or AoC ex-player with something like 98% WoW players and 2% AoC ones.

    Rift had "a lot" raiders for a new non-WoW game up to at least the first 6 months before it started having a bigger decline with all the newer games coming out and WoW patches etc.

    And awesome engines is usually the main goal for Blizzard since forever, its the reason many people cant jump games easily after a Blizzard one cause the "Cartoonish style" engines are very fluid.
    So your evidence is the people you meet in rift. So what percentage of WoW raiders quit raiding in WoW to raid in Rift now? I highly doubt it is a significant percentage based on Rift's actual sub count.

  14. #774
    Nathrezim-US Alliance was a ghost town when I moved to Medivh-US with my guild.
    Medivh-US Alliance now feels like what Nathrezim was at the end of WotLK.

    I followed a friend to Stormrage-US Alliance and wish I had done it sooner. I have not been on a realm that felt this alive since Vanilla/BC. Que times can get annoying, but still worth it imo.

  15. #775
    the future of raiding in WoW is LFR, after each expansion you will see more and more people choosing LFR over an organised raid.

    By the time you get to fight Sargeras it'll just be a bunch of randoms in LFR while some are afk at the start. It'll be an epic fight.

    /EDIT just noticed some people talking about rift. From what you read everywhere if you like raiding then Rift is the game for you. Haven't tried it myself but just by looking at the videos of rift raids you can see how amazing they are.
    Last edited by MrSerious; 2013-04-09 at 05:35 AM.
    "you can't be serious!!" - yes actually I am.

  16. #776
    Warchief Seefer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Millie View Post
    Subs peaked during the "easy" expansion, and plummeted immediately with the inception of harder 5 mans, less gear from valor, and lessened catchup mechanics in the first quarter of Cata.
    Actually they stagnated in WOTLK, 5 mans were not difficult in Crapaclysm other than needing a little CC until you outgeared it which btw did NOT take long at all, you could get whole valor sets so I don't know what you mean by that not "less catchup mechanics" seeing as I had every class but a rogue ready to raid in Crapaclysm...................so again, Crapaclysm was not hard in the least.

  17. #777
    /2 LFM RAID XXXX only with clear ACM and ILVL 392382382829928333333333333333333

    same goes with raid guilds in my opinion and of the things i can read in the chat

    for me, as a returning player from TBC, it is impossible to find a raid guild because everyone wants players which already got crazy good gear and or cleared the whole raid already.
    (ive raided sunwell and BT sucessfully, i even can show achievements, logs that show i was one of the first healers killing illidan/Kil jaeden on my server, they dont give a shit about those achievements which clearly state that i dont suck at raiding and im willing to spend time to improve and get good again, but all that matters is gearscore 2938537 and clear achievement of current raids)


    so for me as sad as it sounds, the LFR tool was the best thing that happened by far in this game.

    im really interested in what you say about my current state of not finding any raid guild or just a raid group in the game, and what i should do to get one

  18. #778
    Quote Originally Posted by knabberstange View Post
    /2 LFM RAID XXXX only with clear ACM and ILVL 392382382829928333333333333333333

    same goes with raid guilds in my opinion and of the things i can read in the chat

    for me, as a returning player from TBC, it is impossible to find a raid guild because everyone wants players which already got crazy good gear and or cleared the whole raid already.
    (ive raided sunwell and BT sucessfully, i even can show achievements, logs that show i was one of the first healers killing illidan/Kil jaeden on my server, they dont give a shit about those achievements which clearly state that i dont suck at raiding and im willing to spend time to improve and get good again, but all that matters is gearscore 2938537 and clear achievement of current raids)


    so for me as sad as it sounds, the LFR tool was the best thing that happened by far in this game.

    im really interested in what you say about my current state of not finding any raid guild or just a raid group in the game, and what i should do to get one
    Not sure but speaking as a former recruitment officer and guildmaster that had a guild for almost 7 years, I would say the guild(s) you've tried to get into have a serious problem with their recruitment officer(s).

    What I look for in an apply (a written one):

    1. does this guy have the right age (I simply detest "kids")
    2. have actually done a very good job writing their apply (e.g. elaborate answers instead of the usual "yes"). You don't have to be a Shakespear to write a decent apply you know.
    3. shows in their writings that they know their class pretty well
    4. has achievements from a certain period when it was current + not raising doubt that this account has been bought
    5. has superb gear equal to what is available to that player without raiding in a guild
    6. has the required gems/enchants/talents for what is mostly suited for the content (ofcourse you can switch talents, but an obvious pvp talent is still not a pve talent)

    If you can do this + you seem a nice guy to talk to.... I seriously doubt any guild would deny you if they have room and aren't recruiting for the sake of recruiting.
    Last edited by Vaelorian; 2013-04-09 at 07:39 AM.

  19. #779
    Quote Originally Posted by WskyDK View Post
    So you're saying that you don't care about mechanics because they don't all apply to you?
    They affect someone in your raid group. I understand bossmods shouldn't be set up for every ability the boss has (and mine aren't) but we're not discussing how you or I play the game, we're talking about why the raider population is in decline. Setting up bossmods for every encounter grows tiresome.

    I do play a DK, and if you'd have paid even a little bit of attention, you would have seen my sig in which my Blood Dk is in. My comment about rotations wasn't in reference to myself, it was a general statement. I can see how it might have been confusing though when I started talking about me in there
    The raider population is in decline, because these are not the old gang of gamers anymore. These are new kids who're used to unlimited continues, getting handed everything to them and overall simple, easy gameplay where each and every aspect of the game is taught to you in a fun, entertaining manner so you basically can't fail to win the game. Simple as that.

    None of these kids ever had cracked games on an old 286 or Amiga or Atari ST, where they had no manual and had to figure everything out themselves. That is in addition to games being a lot less forgiving and harsher back then. You died in Giana Sisters and have no continue? No problem, go back to the start and begin all over again. Not nowadays, no my friend. Tomb Raider - while being an excellent game - is a good example of today's game attitude. Savepoints every two steps. Please, dear god, don't let the player be punished in any way.

    So yeah, once Blizzard puts raiding into a higher gear, people are overwhelmed and quit. Simple as that. The community isn't what it used to be. And all this talk about this or that being the fault of Blizzard... well, technically, it's all true. They are responsible for the development after all. But it won't change people quitting the game. So this whole debate is kinda moot.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-09 at 10:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Crym View Post
    Ground fire was a "gimmick" for a boss before they became standard (before WoW ever did it). Vehicle fights are a mechanic. Visibility of an enemy determined by beams shining on them is a mechanic. Asking people to give you a list of bosses with original mechanics but excluding all original mechanics because they're not standard is self-defeating.
    I actually agree about the vehicle fights and Durumu's visibility mechanic. What I meant by gimmick is something that's clearly just for one boss and not repeated a lot. Take Ryolith or Valithria. Now that they have repeated Valithria in Terrace, I'd agree that it's becoming more of a common mechanic. But steering a boss by dpsing his feet? Well, ok... that doesn't sound like a 1-boss gimmick at all.

    Sure there are exceptions, but outright denying Blizzard is rehashing the same old mechanics over and over again is being ignorant. But then, for the sake of making you all happy, I'll agree that everything is a common mechanic, nothing is repeated every and each thing is designed uniquely for that very specific boss and has never been done before. Because we all know green fire is not red fire, right?

  20. #780
    We've seen a drop in the number of raid guilds killing the first boss, because many of those old guilds that couldn't clear more than a few bosses on normal (even with buffs) have gone pure LFR.

    There were a lot of these. They found raiding fun, because they were all together, but they were no good at it. A few would be competent, but you can't boost 8 out of 10 people. LFR is perfect for these players. They see the bosses, they play together and if somebody doesn't show (as is often the case in very casual guilds) it's no big deal. No need to pug a healer or tank, they can just go.

    There *is* a decline in the number of players as well, but it's not as severe is it looks. In Wrath, there were around 80k guilds with kills. Cata started with 70k and dropped to 60k by the end. Now there are 40k killing Stone Guard. It *could* be that 20k guilds stopped playing entirely, but it's more likely that a large number of them were the ultra casual LFR crowd. You can't count the new raid yet, because it's not been not long enough for some of them to even try it. I reckon that will finish on around 35k kills on that first guy.

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