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  1. #961
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The population rises and falls with the difficulty level. Over the years, wow has got progressively harder and harder and this is shunting more and more players out of the potential raiding population. Mystery solved.

    You can't be in favour of harder raids AND also a larger pool of raiders to choose from, they are mutually exclusive. You have to pick one.
    The range of skill has grown hugely. At the beginning, there were only newbies. Two years later, there were people who had killed some very crudely implemented raid bosses, and there were newbies. Now, eight years later, there are people who have killed some much more sophisticated raid bosses, and there are newbies. And there is a huge range in between.

    But the game has trouble satisfying that range of skill.

    If it were up to me, I would simply ignore the needs of the top 1-2% of players. But that's not how Blizzard does it.

  2. #962
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    The cosmic irony is that his guild is at 1/12 ToT.
    LOL Fantastic. Tin Pot Tyrants. Even I'm further than that and I hate this tier.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #963
    Quote Originally Posted by dacoolist View Post
    Game is 8.5 years old,
    and I believe (could just be me obviously)
    - a lot more folks are kicking back, and or trying out something different like Pvp.

    I'm liking PVP a lot compared to always having to be there 2 nights a week every week no matter what.

    I'm able to Pvp anytime I want, on my schedule.
    the kind of pvp you seem to be talking about is comparable to lfr. and you can do lfr whenever you want, too. the kind of raiding that people talk about here is comparable to rgbs. you cannot do them "when i want, on my schedule".

    i think one of the main reasons is the difference between 10 and 25 player raids. it produced a split in the raiding community, slimming chances of good raids in both formats.

  4. #964
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Wait, what? If you enjoy progression raiding...then you enjoy putting in the time to overcome a challenge for your group. This means wiping...at times wiping over and over again.

    Are you guys quitting after 20 tries on xxxxx tier 14 boss? 50? 100? When do you deem a boss impossible for your group that wants to socialize and not focus on the challenge at hand?

    @glorious: yeah, but you're progressing through current normal mode content...does that offer no satisfaction at all?
    Putting some time, yes. Not being able to complete the tier after 5 months and with item upgrades, i find that unacceptable. And its not 1 guilds not being able to do it, its over 70% of the guilds that started doing Normal raiding that tier.

  5. #965
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    If it were up to me, I would simply ignore the needs of the top 1-2% of players. But that's not how Blizzard does it.
    I'm all for them having heroic modes. Honest I don't want them left out in the cold anymore than my friends or even myself are now. Their just needs to be a better balance struck. That's it. The second boss shouldn't be a massive cock block. I'm all for the final bosses being difficult and the heroic modes being difficult but the entire raid lacks any actual sense of progression. It's just a massive fucking cock block.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #966
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Really? You bolded what I wrote but ignored it somehow. NORMAL RAIDING more accessible. Normal isn' "medium" by any stretch of the imagination. Not relative to any other time in warcraft or relative to what the overwhelming vast majority of the raiding player base will do, or even to other video games.
    Currently we have something like "LFR," "Very Hard," and "Also Very Hard."

  7. #967
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    The cosmic irony is that his guild is at 1/12 ToT.


    there are many reasons why a guild may be 1/12. in my case it was a choice to stop raiding with sub par players and rebuild rather than spend another tier codling the poor game play of 2/10ths of our group.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  8. #968
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Really? You bolded what I wrote but ignored it somehow. NORMAL RAIDING more accessible. Normal isn' "medium" by any stretch of the imagination. Not relative to any other time in warcraft or relative to what the overwhelming vast majority of the raiding player base will do, or even to other video games.
    If you're looking at raids now having 3 difficulty levels (which they do), normals fall right in the middle.
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  9. #969
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'm all for them having heroic modes. Honest I don't want them left out in the cold anymore than my friends or even myself are now. Their just needs to be a better balance struck. That's it. The second boss shouldn't be a massive cock block. I'm all for the final bosses being difficult and the heroic modes being difficult but the entire raid lacks any actual sense of progression. It's just a massive fucking cock block.
    I agree with that point. Horridon is pain in the ass. Garalon was pain in the ass.

    The jump of difficulty between JinRokh and Horridon is huge, we had to get new players for that.
    I think the difficulty is ok, but not for 2nd boss.

  10. #970
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    So why did they stop clearing the accessible T14 content?
    Because T14 was not accesible either.

    T14 is part of the problem, HoF was as overtuned as ToT is and blocked over 70% of the normal raiding guilds for 5 months even with item upgrades.

  11. #971
    Horridon has been tougher than any of the bosses after it we've killed so far

    On topic:

    My guild is 6 years old. Still raids 25 man on a dead server. You just need to have a good leader *cough*. Charisma helps, as does compassion.
    While Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Yes, stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes", to which Diogenes replied, "If I were not Diogenes, I should also wish to be Diogenes."

  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    there are many reasons why a guild may be 1/12. in my case it was a choice to stop raiding with sub par players and rebuild rather than spend another tier codling the poor game play of 2/10ths of our group.
    LOL well their you go. Now you know where all the raiders have gone. They were all apparently sub par all along and only a few of them were actually any really good. Fantastic. How many more will drop away?
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #973
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Because T14 was not accesible either.

    T14 is part of the problem, HoF was as overtuned as ToT is and blocked over 70% of the normal raiding guilds for 5 months even with item upgrades.
    Mostly if people fail its because they cant keep up with the mechanics of encounter, except some bosses.

  14. #974
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Putting some time, yes. Not being able to complete the tier after 5 months and with item upgrades, i find that unacceptable. And its not 1 guilds not being able to do it, its over 70% of the guilds that started doing Normal raiding that tier.
    with the exception of sha we got ahead of the curve. it was painful but fulfilling. we spent 3 weeks working on ambershaper with the same three people not being able to press their one or two button at the right time. the difficulty is just fine and need not be lowered just because we as a group are not getting past the preliminary bosses of the latest tier. we need to improve or find a different hobby not lower the quality of the game for those who can complete.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  15. #975
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    If you're looking at raids now having 3 difficulty levels (which they do), normals fall right in the middle.
    No it doesn't. Merely counting 3 and saying the middle is normal doesn't make it medium difficulty. Not by any measurable stretch. Not relative to any other time in world of warcraft. Not relative to even other video games. Not relative to what the majority of the raiding player base can accomplish. It is simply easy, hard and harder. Theirs 3 there and one is in the middle. Their is no medium though.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-10 at 03:39 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #976
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    LFR, small 10man friends groups and accessability happened. When everyone can get pretty much everywhere alone or with a small core of friends, most people who previously made an effort to get there will take the easy way towards the treasure.

    As a side effect, previously dedicated raiders like myself quit the game when good recruits are more scarce than a giraffe on the north pole. 95% of the applicants my 25man guild got in MoP were applicants whose applications I would have closed after the first few lines in the past, yet we were forced to consider them all due to more and more people quiting as yet another side effect of the above statements.

  17. #977
    Quote Originally Posted by Drekmar View Post
    If somebody wipes 50 times on "normal" boss, it means they suck.

    I dont get it how somebody can get stopped by Elegon or Garalon...
    Then over 70% of normal raiders suck.

    Maybe the solution is to tune NORMAL raids to NORMAL raiders level?

  18. #978
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    LFR, small 10man friends groups and accessability happened. When everyone can get pretty much everywhere alone or with a small core of friends, most people who previously made an effort to get there will take the easy way towards the treasure.

    As a side effect, previously dedicated raiders like myself quit the game when good recruits are more scarce than a giraffe on the north pole. 95% of the applicants my 25man guild got in MoP were applicants whose applications I would have closed after the first few lines in the past, yet we were forced to consider them all due to more and more people quiting as yet another side effect of the above statements.


    although the majority fits the mold of what you have stated not all. I made the decision early in cata to not bow to the easier path of running 25 man with all the extra benefits and more room for slack. have I paid for it in not always being able to find players up to the challenge of ten man raiding? absolutely. But the payoff is in the satisfaction received when we accomplish the goal with better players and more effort.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  19. #979
    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    If it were up to me, I would simply ignore the needs of the top 1-2% of players. But that's not how Blizzard does it.
    If you look at it the right way, those top players are doing everything in their power to make Blizzard's job as tough as possible. They go to enormous lengths to segregate themselves from the rest of the player population, play with extreme intensity, brutally screen out anyone not in the upper ranks of performance, and minmax everything.

    Why should Blizzard be catering to a group that is deliberately placing itself as far as possible from the average?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
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  20. #980
    I've noticed that a few guilds on my server went from 3/12 to 6/12 within the past week or two. A handful of them are fairly casual guilds who only raid 1-2 times a week, so I don't think this raid is necessarily "overtuned". I think with all the number adjustments, this current tier feels pretty balanced.

    I've also been noticing this trend amongst raiders that if they cannot fully clear a tier, the tier was overtuned and created for hardcore raiders. I remember back in previous expansions where fully clearing a raid was really difficult and reserved for the top guilds. I don't think Blizzard designs raids with the intention of having the majority of raid teams clearing normal mode.

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