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  1. #1121
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Sadly that's the only kinda debate were gonna get I think. Histrionics and hyperbole.
    Okay. I follow... Sounds good. Given your distain for it, I assume your argument will be bassed on factual data and free of ridiculous exageration.

    The gap is so wide between lfr and normal mode it feels roughly akin to dropping a pencil down a mine shaft. In fact it feels greater than the gap between normals and heroics in previous expansions. It would be closer to call LFR the new normal and everything else just hard. Closer but not exact. Normal should have some challenge and lfr is a pushover by and large but the alternative normal raids are to hard. The concept of medium difficulty escapes Blizzard.
    Uh....
    <WHAR LEWTS PLZ HALp>
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Either give an argument, or be automatically wrong. Your choice.

  2. #1122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    Okay. I follow... Sounds good. Given your distain for it, I assume your argument will be bassed on factual data and free of ridiculous exageration.



    Uh....
    It's not an exaggeration. That's how I feel and I think the evidence suggests the gap is indeed that wide. If LFR was harder it wouldn't be. Or if Normal is easier it wouldn't be. But the difference is quite stark. It's a spike as opposed to a gradient curve which it should be.

    Please try again though, it was amusing to watch you flail around like that.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-11 at 03:12 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  3. #1123
    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    Okay. I follow... Sounds good. Given your distain for it, I assume your argument will be bassed on factual data and free of ridiculous exageration.
    His arguments are largely free of ridiculous exaggeration. They don't need to be dry compendiums of data to avoid hyperbole.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    But what they were asking for wasn't "medium". They don't want any appearance of a challenge. They just want a little challenge until they learn the fight then be able to farm it problem free after 6-10 attempts. That isn't medium, that is "easy" with LFR being "super easy". I think that points to the problem right there. What is wrong with a challenge? Why are people raiding only to Win instead of to raid? Wiping is a part of raiding and you shouldn't raid with out the expectation to wipe.

    If you don't want to wipe ever then you need to do one of two things; Get better at the game or don't raid. You even wipe in LFR and I see people that leave groups after one wipe which is baffling. Even more so when they are DPS and likely waited an 45-60 mins in the first place (going by estimated queue times I see on my when I queue)
    No one is asking not to wipe.

    What we are saying is that normal skilled people should be able to clear a tier in 5 months with item upgrades nerfing it. This wasnt true in T14 and it wasnt going to be true in t15.

    5 months for a tier is not equal to not wipe a single time.

  5. #1125
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Like it depends who does ptr testing primarily. See the key isn't to then tune based solely on the ptr I guess. Like if the folks doing shit on the ptr are the cream of the crop or better than the average bear your goal should then be to detune a little bit for normals so that it becomes more accessible. I think when they tuned ToT it was on the impression that it was your everyday raider on the ptr and if they could do it well it ought to be tougher.

    It's not just the tuning though. Theirs other things as well. Durumu is the worst, I can't believe that mechanic left testing like that.
    I'm sure they take into account the type of people who do PTRs. Still it leaved them with no data about the avg player's performance.

    The best they can do is make an educated guess from the hardcore raider's performance.

  6. #1126
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    All normal raiders want is some places that requires a little bit of teamwork while they shoot the shit over vent on a weekend.

    You've got this idea that they are looking for a challenge and it simply isn't so. A raid you can learn to clear in one or two weeks and then farm the shit out of for a few months so all your guild/alt is geared up is just about perfect for such players. Any more than 6 -10 wipes on anything is way too much for most players.

    The average normal raider certainly doesn't want to be sinking 70 wipes into garalon type encounters.
    Controversial opinion here:

    If you are looking for a challenge, why in the ever loving hell are you playing an MMO? Mechanically, and systemically, it's not a very challenging genre. Almost ALL of it is organizational, knowing what to do, when to do it, and being able to hit the right buttons. The skill cap, relative to other things, is very low.

    You want a challenge? Go play some oldschool NES games, Ninja Gaiden, Dark Souls, or what not. Not something who's "challenge" is entirely dependent on other people "Knowing" what to do.

  7. #1127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Controversial opinion here:

    If you are looking for a challenge, why in the ever loving hell are you playing an MMO? Mechanically, and systemically, it's not a very challenging genre. Almost ALL of it is organizational, knowing what to do, when to do it, and being able to hit the right buttons. The skill cap, relative to other things, is very low.

    You want a challenge? Go play some oldschool NES games, Ninja Gaiden, Dark Souls, or what not. Not something who's "challenge" is entirely dependent on other people "Knowing" what to do.
    I would say those games in alot of instances provide artificial challenges. The biggest challenge in ninja gaiden was fucking around with the stupid camera angle. Like yea it was challenging but felt cheap because it wasn't your play was bad you just got boned.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  8. #1128
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    If you are looking for a challenge, why in the ever loving hell are you playing an MMO? Mechanically, and systemically, it's not a very challenging genre. Almost ALL of it is organizational, knowing what to do, when to do it, and being able to hit the right buttons. The skill cap, relative to other things, is very low.
    I dunno, there lots of challenging things in MMOs, both in WoW and in other games out there. Granted there's a lot of content in WoW and other games that doesn't push most people, but there are challenges to be found if you look for them.

  9. #1129
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Controversial opinion here:

    If you are looking for a challenge, why in the ever loving hell are you playing an MMO? Mechanically, and systemically, it's not a very challenging genre. Almost ALL of it is organizational, knowing what to do, when to do it, and being able to hit the right buttons. The skill cap, relative to other things, is very low.

    You want a challenge? Go play some oldschool NES games, Ninja Gaiden, Dark Souls, or what not. Not something who's "challenge" is entirely dependent on other people "Knowing" what to do.
    Controversial opinion here:

    If you are looking for a challenge, why in the ever loving hell are you playing a game? Mechanically, and systemically, it's not a very challenging. Almost ALL of it is organizational, knowing what to do, when to do it, and being able to hit the right buttons. The skill cap, relative to other things, is very low.

    Fixed it for you.

  10. #1130
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Controversial opinion here:

    If you are looking for a challenge, why in the ever loving hell are you playing an MMO? Mechanically, and systemically, it's not a very challenging genre. Almost ALL of it is organizational, knowing what to do, when to do it, and being able to hit the right buttons. The skill cap, relative to other things, is very low.

    You want a challenge? Go play some oldschool NES games, Ninja Gaiden, Dark Souls, or what not. Not something who's "challenge" is entirely dependent on other people "Knowing" what to do.
    I'm confused... So knowing what to do, pushing the right buttons, and knowing when to push the right buttons isn't skillful? You know that you just described every encounter in Dark Souls right? Just because it's a hot key rpg over an action rpg doesn't mean it requires less skill. If anything it's a lot more to manage with the abundance of spells, skills, and CDs on top of needing to communicate with your raid.

    Anyway, Blizz tends to over tune encounters initially and then nerf them later if too many players are struggling. They just nerfed a lot of the encounters (especially on 10m) and the fact players have been getting better gear over the last month or so should help too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  11. #1131

    I can't speak for other guilds on my server but I can.....

    for my guild. We were set to start raiding just after 5.2 dropped. Folks had finally geared up enough to at least be viable against the 1st 2 or 3 bosses in MSV. Then our MT went AWOL. Almost immediately after Christmas those that we had recruited to fill out missing pieces left for other guilds. None of us who were set at 5.2 have completed a raid.

    With my guild we can't get people to stick around long enough to learn how to work together. Newcomers get frustrated that they're not making progress (or want to be carried), old timers are frustrated that we can't keep anyone around. So most of us work on something other than current content, except via LFR. The oldtimers still in the guild are overgeared for the 5.0 raids, but can't get make progress.

    So where have the raiders gone? Dunno really, except maybe doing old content for achievements and laughs, doing so with 6 or so people at any given time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eisenstein View Post
    At the height of Cata my guild had 4 raid groups, a Saturday alt run and a Sunday/Monday RBG team. Now we are having trouble fielding teams on our evening and late night groups. When MoP dropped we had a wealth of players that were frothing at the mouth for a chance to raid. Literally 40+ players on everyday. We figured Fielding 1 team wouldn't be an issue but fielding 3 teams might be difficult. With in the first 3 months we were one of many guilds endlessly spamming trade to find 1 more dps or 1 more healer for raid. I have seen some of the other guilds that we used to compete with going through the same issues.

    My main reasoning in posting this is I'd like to know from players, guilds and realms outside of my own if the number of actual people raiding is way down. I wish there was a way to see how many players are actively participating in non-lfr raids on a realm.

    Is the only option left to leave mid to low pop realms all together. Maybe join the masses on the high pop realms along with the que time to play?

  12. #1132
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    I'm confused... So knowing what to do, pushing the right buttons, and knowing when to push the right buttons isn't skillful? You know that you just described every encounter in Dark Souls right? Just because it's a hot key rpg over an action rpg doesn't mean it requires less skill. If anything it's a lot more to manage with the abundance of spells, skills, and CDs on top of needing to communicate with your raid.

    Anyway, Blizz tends to over tune encounters initially and then nerf them later if too many players are struggling. They just nerfed a lot of the encounters (especially on 10m) and the fact players have been getting better gear over the last month or so should help too.
    I didn't say it wasn't skillful. I'm just saying... I mean, the game doesn't even have AI.

  13. #1133
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    I'm confused... So knowing what to do, pushing the right buttons, and knowing when to push the right buttons isn't skillful?
    Depends on your definition of "challenge". What you're describing isn't really so much as "beating a challenge" as it is more likely "memory retainment/hand rotation crank". Basically trying to fit the right peg into the right hole. if it doesn't fit the slot, it doesn't go in. OOops! If you don't do the boss right, you die. Ooops!

    A "challenge" is (...I hate to say this...) more like PVP, where you have to think ON THE FLY for any random occurrence and situation. The majority of raid bosses are hardly random. The only random element is knowing basically where the fire is and getting out, aside from that - the boss is pretty-much scripted.

    I mean, have you ever played the game "Dragon's Lair"? Is that really "skillful" to know when to hit the left or right button at the exact moment? Or is it far more "learning via binary attrition" to be able to do that?

    What I find skillful are the people who do INSANE things, like flying two planes in a FPS/vehicle combat game, bailing out at mid-flight onto each other's opposite plane, getting back into the cockpits and continue flying.
    "Tell them only that the Lich King is dead... and that World of Warcraft... died with him..."

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    That's the ONLY reason you would post 9600 posts over 3 years: a mission of hate.

  14. #1134
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Depends on your definition of "challenge". What you're describing isn't really so much as "beating a challenge" as it is more likely "memory retainment/hand rotation crank". Basically trying to fit the right peg into the right hole. if it doesn't fit the slot, it doesn't go in. OOops! If you don't do the boss right, you die. Ooops!

    A "challenge" is (...I hate to say this...) more like PVP, where you have to think ON THE FLY for any random occurrence and situation. The majority of raid bosses are hardly random. The only random element is knowing basically where the fire is and getting out, aside from that - the boss is pretty-much scripted.

    I mean, have you ever played the game "Dragon's Lair"? Is that really "skillful" to know when to hit the left or right button at the exact moment? Or is it far more "learning via binary attrition" to be able to do that?

    What I find skillful are the people who do INSANE things, like flying two planes in a FPS/vehicle combat game, bailing out at mid-flight onto each other's opposite plane, getting back into the cockpits and continue flying.
    THeirs a video of a guy who does that in BF3 or something like that. I lawled when I saw it. He's in a dog fight getting chased, ejects, pulls out a bazooka, kills the plane chasing him then get's back in his jet. Youtube Battlefield 3 rendezook
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #1135
    Anyway, Blizz tends to over tune encounters initially and then nerf them later if too many players are struggling. They just nerfed a lot of the encounters (especially on 10m) and the fact players have been getting better gear over the last month or so should help too.
    While they like to say this, they aren't paying enough attention. Normal Elegon was holding back 25% of all raiders for months before they finally nerfed him. This is their biggest sin so far in MoP but I think they would do good with nerfing quite alot more. I really hope we will see a progressive nerf in ToT so that there will be any normal mode raiders left when 5.4 hits. With the current attrition rate there will be something like 11000-12000 guilds that kill the first boss in T16 on normal after 6 weeks if the attrition rate continues. And only god knows what will happen in the next expansion with normal mode raiding.

  16. #1136
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    THeirs a video of a guy who does that in BF3 or something like that. I lawled when I saw it. He's in a dog fight getting chased, ejects, pulls out a bazooka, kills the plane chasing him then get's back in his jet. Youtube Battlefield 3 rendezook
    The jet stunts you can see people do in BF2 and BF3 are absolutely insane. I had a friend who'd do aerial repairs of his planes. Crazy, crazy stuff.

  17. #1137
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    This, again, might have less to do with business model and more with tech limitations. New games have the luxury of building on new infrastructure right away or utilize new technology right away. Blizzard has to go through hoops to seamlessly update 8 year old tech without breaking anything. Server tech is one major area WoW is starting to fall behind on, I'm pretty sure they aren't keeping it because they love how it works.
    I couldn't agree more, yet they keep it despite the fact it's seemingly poor for business.

    I'm sure they either continue to push their wares based off of either the fact that they don't trust their player-base enough to stick with them (i.e. if they were to transition into what would essentially be "WoW 2" or other drastic overhauls) hence what seems like poor business decisions to us, but fiscally responsible to those who would see us as a fickle bunch.. Or, they believe us to just be a dumb infatuated mass, that despite whatever piss poor decisions they do make, we'll still be here.

    Either or, at this point really.
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  18. #1138
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Weird, because many of them seem to have fixed their logistical problem, since the 13k empress guild kills jumped to 18k with just a 10% nerf...

    And i am guessing that number will go up a lot more with the Garalon enrage timer nerf.

    So no, i'm sorry, its not about logistics, its about difficulty.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 09:29 AM ----------



    You would be wrong too. Again, the number increased by 50% (13k to 18k) with just a 10% nerf, so it isnt about logistics or about people stop trying to go for LFR.

    People tried, and failed, and kept trying, and kept failing, because HoF N was DAMMED HARD for normal players.

    Oooooh, lets do some maths.


    WoWprogress tracks 700,000 guilds.

    The Garalon enrage timer nerf, allowed another 5,000 guilds to beat it.

    This means that a decrease in difficulty affected 0.7% of guilds, whilst the rest didnt complete it due to................................logistics?


    So yea, totally, decreasing the difficulty level of bosses makes virtually no difference at all to how many guilds will eventually beat it.

  19. #1139
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas;20797248A
    "challenge" is (...I hate to say this...) more like PVP, where you have to think ON THE FLY for any random occurrence and situation. The majority of raid bosses are hardly random. The only random element is knowing basically where the fire is and getting out, aside from that - the boss is pretty-much scripted.
    Well, you'll be sorry to hear that all the challenge in modern pvp in wow left is how to not die in boredom while being CC-chained.
    OT: I'm glad to see some nerfs, especially to Horridon. Making second boss in tier this much absurdly overtuned is... well, absurd.

  20. #1140
    Quote Originally Posted by MacD123 View Post
    Oooooh, lets do some maths.


    WoWprogress tracks 700,000 guilds.

    The Garalon enrage timer nerf, allowed another 5,000 guilds to beat it.

    This means that a decrease in difficulty affected 0.7% of guilds, whilst the rest didnt complete it due to................................logistics?


    So yea, totally, decreasing the difficulty level of bosses makes virtually no difference at all to how many guilds will eventually beat it.

    Of those 700k guilds, only 40k killled Stone Guards normal, the rest dont raid and are therefore irelevant for the discussion.

    13k killed empress before 5.2. 18k killed empress as for today. Around 50% more, means a lot of people was trying to kill the bosses and were failing, and the fact that only 13k guilds have killed was not due to people not trying. The nerf was needed a long time ago (it was needed when it was current).

    Now, if you want to take the 660k guilds that dont even try to do the content because you have no real arguments, then i feel sorry for you.

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