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  1. #1181
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    First off, it's a game, jesus H. Christ, stop with that.

    Second off, they DO "nerf" tests, fairly often, actually! At least in the USA, so people can pass.
    Actually yea. They grade on a bell curve all the time. LOL.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  2. #1182
    Quote Originally Posted by MacD123 View Post
    There is a reason these guilds dont raid. Its not to do with raid difficulty, its because a portion of them CANT RAID. This is due to logistics, either raiders cant turn up on time consistently, or they are leaderless.
    Yep. Or they're social / pvp guilds, and simply not interested.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 01:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    You're making a false assumption that everyone in LFR actualy wants to be there because they want to raid and not because Blizzard put the best PVE rewards outside normal raiding in LFR.

    You can't credibly claim to know in an MMO that people do content because they want to when they the best loot in the game is behind that content.

    If pet battles had 502 loot, then a great many more people would do pet battles. Would that mean that pet battles are suddenly more fun inherently? No.

    No content with better rewards can be compared to any other and be said to be more desirable unless both offer the same rewards for roughly the same time input.

    Raiding gives out the best rewards in the game and until something else awards something similar, how much people want to do raiding versus how much they are doing it because Blizzard wants them to can't really be known.
    I enjoy PvP in this game, but dislike rbgs and arena. So I don't bother with them, despite the fact that they're generally required for the best gear in the game.

    But back on topic. It'd be interesting to see the hard data on LFR attendance, and more importantly, how many players have LFR kills and zero attempts on normal mode. I'll bet that it'd be quite high.
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  3. #1183
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Yep. Or they're social / pvp guilds, and simply not interested.
    Untrue and to be frank if your going to make such general broad statements you should probably think it through before you do. Raid scheduling is a barrier to entry. everything he list was. raid difficulty is also a barrier to entry and a significant one. This expansions "catch up" mechanics also present a barrier to entry. both of which imo contribute far more to the decline in raiders than anything else scheduling or other wise. The barriers to entry he listed were around in DS as well however we still had more guilds raiding. Those barriers didn't change. The difficulty and the catch up mechanics did.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #1184
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Untrue and to be frank if your going to make such general broad statements you should probably think it through before you do. Raid scheduling is a barrier to entry. everything he list was. raid difficulty is also a barrier to entry and a significant one. This expansions "catch up" mechanics also present a barrier to entry. both of which imo contribute far more to the decline in raiders than anything else scheduling or other wise. The barriers to entry he listed were around in DS as well however we still had more guilds raiding. Those barriers didn't change. The difficulty and the catch up mechanics did.
    Do you honestly think that every single guild out there wants to raid, but can't? Perhaps you need to think about the issue more.
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  5. #1185
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Do you honestly think that every single guild out there wants to raid, but can't? Perhaps you need to think about the issue more.
    When did I say every guild wanted to? I said more would if their were less barriers to entry. LFR represents a significant removal of some of the barriers to entry. Blizzard in their infinite wisdom added more this raid tier (and I would argue this expansion overall) and as a consequence less players are going to raid normals. Simple as that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 05:46 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I enjoy PvP in this game, but dislike rbgs and arena. So I don't bother with them, despite the fact that they're generally required for the best gear in the game.

    But back on topic. It'd be interesting to see the hard data on LFR attendance, and more importantly, how many players have LFR kills and zero attempts on normal mode. I'll bet that it'd be quite high.
    I would be shocked if it weren't tbqh. In part because of it's convenience but also because a large chunk of players who would have otherwise been normal raiders have been pushed out of this tier and the previous tier. They stopped being "normal" or "average" raiders when the difficulty increased.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-12 at 06:34 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  6. #1186
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vaelorian View Post
    Hey I know... let's nerf all the tests in schools aswell.
    WoW isn't a place to learn. This is a poor analogy.
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  7. #1187
    Maybe off topic, but

    Can't really understand the fuss about MoP normals though.

    It was not harder than Cata normals(DS is exception, well)

    The problem is that gear is just fucking tedious to get, but the difficulty in optimal gear level isn't really hard..


    Oh and Tortos should be just deleted. Worst RNG fight I ever seen.

    Turtle hits healer a lot of times? wipe
    Turtle hits people who has rock falling on top? wipe
    Can you avoid the turtles(especially healer)? not really
    Last edited by PrairieChicken; 2013-04-12 at 09:57 PM.

  8. #1188
    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieChicken View Post
    Maybe off topic, but

    Can't really understand the fuss about MoP normals though.

    It was not harder than Cata normals(DS is exception, well)

    The problem is that gear is just fucking tedious to get, but the difficulty in optimal gear level isn't really hard..


    Oh and Tortos should be just deleted. Worst RNG fight I ever seen.

    Turtle hits healer a lot of times? wipe
    Turtle hits people who has rock falling on top? wipe
    Can you avoid the turtles(especially healer)? not really
    Well, actually you CAN avoid turtles as a healer. You needed to slow them pre-nerf, after nerf they are so slooooooow by themselves that looks like slowing them is not required any more. Boss is still too random, though; but, to be honest, Megaera is as much random with a lot more damage incoming in raid, while healers still have a bad, bad times for hardcasting.
    Still don't understant what was the reason to increase freaking iLvl on items for so much. And, while it is increased, lots of new items suck. Our damage dealers are complaining all the time for having a ton of unneeded hit/expertise because of tons of them on a new items. And, by the way, valor items from Shado-Pan sucks as much for having a very crappy stat customisation; my Holy Priest can't take any of that items after reaching Honored because there is a fucking crit on every item.
    To those people who still can't pass through first part of t15 normal: Guys, cheer up. When you reach Durumu, you'll understand that all bosses before it were a little pink wearing pussies, lol.

  9. #1189
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Well, actually you CAN avoid turtles as a healer. You needed to slow them pre-nerf, after nerf they are so slooooooow by themselves that looks like slowing them is not required any more. Boss is still too random, though; but, to be honest, Megaera is as much random with a lot more damage incoming in raid, while healers still have a bad, bad times for hardcasting.
    Still don't understant what was the reason to increase freaking iLvl on items for so much. And, while it is increased, lots of new items suck. Our damage dealers are complaining all the time for having a ton of unneeded hit/expertise because of tons of them on a new items. And, by the way, valor items from Shado-Pan sucks as much for having a very crappy stat customisation; my Holy Priest can't take any of that items after reaching Honored because there is a fucking crit on every item.
    To those people who still can't pass through first part of t15 normal: Guys, cheer up. When you reach Durumu, you'll understand that all bosses before it were a little pink wearing pussies, lol.
    Haven't gone after nerf, but before it was just annoying how if turtles FF healers, and dodging them meant you can't hardcast, and instants doesn't provide much healing, and someone dies from AoE while healers are busy with turtles, etc.

  10. #1190
    Quote Originally Posted by PrairieChicken View Post
    Haven't gone after nerf, but before it was just annoying how if turtles FF healers, and dodging them meant you can't hardcast, and instants doesn't provide much healing, and someone dies from AoE while healers are busy with turtles, etc.
    Well, looks like you have something that is definitely not your healers problems. Teach your damage dealers not to get that tons of damage
    Anyway, after nerfs dodging turtles is not a problem at all.

  11. #1191
    Quote Originally Posted by l33t View Post
    Well, looks like you have something that is definitely not your healers problems. Teach your damage dealers not to get that tons of damage
    Anyway, after nerfs dodging turtles is not a problem at all.
    I'm just saying that the difficulty spikes too randomly depending on who(and where) the turtle hits. Sometimes it's super difficult and sometime it's faceroll. Way too random

    Something like initial Sinestra where two balls chasing two healers could make a lot of trouble

  12. #1192
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    WoW isn't a place to learn. This is a poor analogy.
    Yes WoW isn't a place to learn life skills - but that it what makes it an analogy.

  13. #1193
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    Yes WoW isn't a place to learn life skills - but that is what makes it an analogy.
    If you want to make a good analogy, try starting with similar things and applying the same things to both of them.
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  14. #1194
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Who knows what is wrong with a challenge? Fact is though that players on the whole aren't interested in dozens of wipes before shit dies.

    The problem here is you don't want to accept that is what other people are like. It's a bit odd to demand that other players try harder to beat the game when you won't try harder to understand other players.


    Why is it baffling?

    Wiping over and over is (for most people) dull, repetitive shit that is happening at the same time as they are supposed to be having fun. For some other people wiping over and over is the prelude to a good feeling when the boss finally dies.

    People are different. Who knew! There are more of the "fuck this, boring" people than "ooh yeah, beat me again Raggy HC!" types. Again, who knew!

    it is what it is, accept it please.
    Totally agree with this.

    Not to mention we've played WoW for years and years, and have all done normals and even heroics over the years. Dedicating a night to wiping constantly just isn't as fun as it once was. WoW is not new and exciting.. you can't keep our attention that long like the old days.

    I like LFR because I can log in on my own terms, play on my own terms. Until Blizzard makes PUGing more rewarding, I will be done with Normal modes for good. I usually quit after a few weeks each patch, so I never get the opportunity to raid normals/heroics like in the past.

    tl;dr I just don't care like I used to. Make Normal mode a LFR option and Ill give it a shot when my gear permits.
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  15. #1195
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    If you want to make a good analogy, try starting with similar things and applying the same things to both of them.
    LOL the analogy police are in force today. I understood it even without a direct computer game reference.

  16. #1196
    I blame DS for the loss of a few.

  17. #1197
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    I understood it even without a direct computer game reference.
    Whether you understood it or not, it's a bad analogy.
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  18. #1198
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    When did I say every guild wanted to? I said more would if their were less barriers to entry. LFR represents a significant removal of some of the barriers to entry. Blizzard in their infinite wisdom added more this raid tier (and I would argue this expansion overall) and as a consequence less players are going to raid normals. Simple as that.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-12 at 05:46 PM ----------



    I would be shocked if it weren't tbqh. In part because of it's convenience but also because a large chunk of players who would have otherwise been normal raiders have been pushed out of this tier and the previous tier. They stopped being "normal" or "average" raiders when the difficulty increased.
    I would disaggre that LFR is a removal of a barrier to entry into raiding.
    Simply because it by itself adds to the amount of time one has to invest in the game is you want to be a dedicated raider.
    You might just have 2-3 raidnights a week but on top of that you end up with 1-2 nights where you play wait till the que pops and then go mindlessly through LFR.
    Why do LFR well if you are a semi dedicated raider you still want to upgrade your gear in order to be best prepared for the challenges in normal/heroic raiding.

    Add to that that you are also expected to grind reputation, do daylies, cap valor and have enough gold/food/flasks every evening where gold is the least of the problems since blizzard has gone ben bernanke mode and throws out gold left and right especially 28.50g .
    Normal raiding would be much more enjoyable if one had to do less things ingame in order to be best prepared for it.
    Somehow it would just be better if they threw out those reputation barriers, the removed the coins and made it easier to cap valor, doing 7 dungeons one afternoon in cata was significantly more enjoyable than the current system and gave one more freedom.
    With LFR well you have the problem of add a lockout, but that would lead to people just going for LFR because it is easier to complete and gives more chances to get loot than doing normal mode. Or throw out LFR and say raids are player organised things end of story, which is something I think is better given that this is an mmo. Bring back the wrath system it did include more in normal mode raiding even if it was only beer league 10 man normals mode as someone called it.

  19. #1199
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Whether you understood it or not, it's a bad analogy.
    Its meaning is clear so its good enough. Not for the first time you are trying to be clever and play word games, - any fool cant stretch an analogy to break it, doesn't stop the point being made.

  20. #1200
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    Its meaning is clear so its good enough.
    It's a false argument as it has a false premis, so it has no meaning.
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