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  1. #1201
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Yes and that is unfortunatly the damned problem, LFR as a feature is so popular that it is well killing of raiding teams. And no LFR is not raiding but that is another thread^^
    (1) LFR is a horrible experience that makes one despair for the future of sanity, and

    (2) By their actions, large numbers of people are demonstrating that normal mode raiding is, for them, even worse.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  2. #1202
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Yea because b4 LFR was implemented no one could do normals back in Wrath when raiding was at its peak... o wait...

    The reason there is no normal pugs is because a bulk of the players who would be filling up those pugs are satisfied with just doing LFR each week. LFR has allowed players the ability to raid very easily and they dont need to worry about normals anymore. Want to gear your alt? Use LFR. Back in the day you needed pug 25 mans and 10 mans to gear your alts, now you have LFR and alot of players are content with stopping their while others are wondering where everyone went, assuming blizzards numbers are not wrong and the population is relatively the same then the only thing that has changed is LFR. Since ppl have LFR they dont need Normals.

    It has nothing to do with the drop rate of LFR gear and ppl not being geared for normals. The raids should be balanced starting with the highest gear available from dungeons, not starting at LFR.
    I'd just like to say, even at it's peak in WOTLK, as you say, very few people in the playerbase still actually participated in organized raiding.

    Making it easier to get into will help a little. But raiding in the organized capacity is never, ever, ever going to have large numbers. Just like dungeons won't. Just like Challenge modes won't. Just like Arena won't. Just like RBG's won't. Organization and expectations creates a noticeably huge barrier for entry for a lot of people who'd just rather flat out not deal with that in a videogame.

  3. #1203
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    It's a false argument as it has a false premis, so it has no meaning.
    You are simply proving my point now.

  4. #1204
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    You are simply proving my point now.
    No, I'm pretty sure I've just disproven your argument, as you're out of arguments yourself.
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  5. #1205
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Yea because b4 LFR was implemented no one could do normals back in Wrath when raiding was at its peak... o wait...

    No heroic content was in-game until ToC, so was raid representation the highest in Wrath because only 1 25 man version of the raid was available to everyone.

    Players were also able to obtain current ilevel/Tier GEAR much easier via vendors for valor 2set, VoA bosses, fast 1 boss raids (Sarth+Maly).
    Even when Ony was released players getting competitive weapons from a one boss fight.



    It has nothing to do with the drop rate of LFR gear and ppl not being geared for normals. The raids should be balanced starting with the highest gear available from dungeons, not starting at LFR.
    The lower a players chance is to improve/obtain gear, the less likely they are to raid. Main or Alt the Lack of LFR gear has negatively affected raiding

  6. #1206
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    (1) LFR is a horrible experience that makes one despair for the future of sanity, and

    (2) By their actions, large numbers of people are demonstrating that normal mode raiding is, for them, even worse.
    1: yes LFR is a horrible experience that makes one despair for the future of sanity
    2: no not really because if you raid normals you have to raid LFR aswell in order to get gear upgrades, which brings us back to point number 1 .

    Doing LFR is not a a choice, it is not you can either do LFR or normal. The choice is do LFR or do LFR and normal mode and all the other crap you have to do to be prepared.
    Maybe Illidan could get a job around azeroth shouting "you are not prepared" at raiders.^^

  7. #1207
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    1: yes LFR is a horrible experience that makes one despair for the future of sanity
    2: no not really because if you raid normals you have to raid LFR aswell in order to get gear upgrades, which brings us back to point number 1 .

    Doing LFR is not a a choice, it is not you can either do LFR or normal. The choice is do LFR or do LFR and normal mode and all the other crap you have to do to be prepared.
    Maybe Illidan could get a job around azeroth shouting "you are not prepared" at raiders.^^
    But there are large numbers of people who do LFR and not normals. These people, by their actions, demonstrate that they prefer LFR to normal. Think about that.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  8. #1208
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    What happened to public testing? My suspicion is this patch was rushed hard.
    Have you ever been to PTR? There are 3 kinds of people.
    1, Hardcore players who wants to test out the raids so they can advance very fast when the patch hits live.
    2, Streamers , "Bloggers" and so on, basically people who wants to post information for others.
    3, Peoples who dont play anymore, but go on ptr because its free.

    Raids are tested, but mostly by hardcore raiders, who clear normals on live in maximum 3 weeks from release. Thats the reason, casual players dont put effort into going on ptr with whole group to test the raids, they just wait.

  9. #1209
    My alt dk doesn't pug normal ToT because LFR refuses to drop any gear for me, except some garbage necklace that i don't need b/c the of valor 1

    I don't even bother with LFR anymore because the new LFR loot system has been completely broken in my experiences compared to the old system.
    You have no say on what piece of gear you need or what an rng based system will give to you.

    Receiving gear you have no use for is idiotic and more aggravating then getting no gear at all

  10. #1210
    Deleted
    I'd like to raid but I'm stuck in shit guilds that can barely clear last tier's normal with ilvl over 500. None of the "better" guilds needs my class (ret paladin) or want someone who's ilvl 520+ because they are already doing heroic ToT.

  11. #1211
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But there are large numbers of people who do LFR and not normals. These people, by their actions, demonstrate that they prefer LFR to normal. Think about that.
    A lot of people also prefer free beer compared to paying for beer...

    LFR is a piss easy loot pinata.
    And why do normals when you see the content anyway.
    And why do normals when you essentially have to do LFR aswell, then you might just stick with LFR to begin with.

    And it is not about preferring LFR to normal mode. that implies that there is some yes or no choice, either this way or the other, but at the end of the day normal mode raiding leads to people having to do LFR anyway.
    It is not a choice between LFR progression and normal mode progression. With normal mode you automaticly have to go through LFr as well for gear.

    In the end I would not claim that they prefer anything, in the end most people just settle for what is easiest for them to do in order to achieve a certain goal. And if that goal is to see some endboss and to see the socalled content killed, well you might as well just kill it in LFR.
    In a sense normal mode ends up being in the same place as heroic mode is.
    You have now killed the boss in LFR, what about killing him in normal mode. You have now killed him in normal mode what about killing him in heroic mode...
    Last edited by mmoc30cfcfeceb; 2013-04-15 at 09:02 PM.

  12. #1212
    Quote Originally Posted by Drekmar View Post
    Have you ever been to PTR? There are 3 kinds of people.
    1, Hardcore players who wants to test out the raids so they can advance very fast when the patch hits live.
    2, Streamers , "Bloggers" and so on, basically people who wants to post information for others.
    3, Peoples who dont play anymore, but go on ptr because its free.

    Raids are tested, but mostly by hardcore raiders, who clear normals on live in maximum 3 weeks from release. Thats the reason, casual players dont put effort into going on ptr with whole group to test the raids, they just wait.
    So the question is why don't casuals help test on the PTR? If Blizzard sees a wipe rate of 95% on the PTR, surely they will make the live version significantly easier. All that has to happen is the casuals need to rise up and drown out the voice of the elitists, and they can do that by giving Blizzard proper feedback via the PTR.

  13. #1213
    It's kind of funny, but I actually told my 25 man guild at the time of LFR's arrival that this would kill raiding as we know it. They refused to believe me and countered with "LFR and raiding is two completely different ball games, they'll live side by side and will be nice for people who can't commit to raiding" I replied telling them that applies to at least 40% of our guild meaning we would have 15 people available for raiding when LFR went live. I knew 25 mans were a thing of the past and those were the only remaining aspect of WoW that kept me playing, so I quit. It took 2 months for the guild to disband, the LFR plague has spread rapidly and has killed guilds with extreme precision.

    I tried Pandaland up to 87 and figured Blizzard had really given up trying. I mean, 60% of servers are more or less dead, no free transfers, no mergers, content patches containing little actual content and the list goes on. I also think the graphics in Pandaria looks a bit blurry, it kinda turned me off. When I started playing WoW it felt like a living, breathing world where you could run into some random dude and have fun, the game was fun. TBC took some of that interactivity away but the game was still fun at it's core, heck I even loved doing attunements, guess that makes me weird compared to todays "Give-me-instant-gratification-now!-crowd" I mean, the real culprit that destroyed this game was impatient players and a company that did everything they cried about.

    I don't really care about the rage I'll get from the fanbois, the game, in my eyes, is on a downward spiral. Just look at it's almost exponential decrease in playerbase over the last two years, it cannot go on like that or the decrease in subscribers will be irreversible. Alot of people cried the raiders meant shit to this game, but look at it now. Where is it going? It's declining so fast that even the people we hardcore raiders considered casuals/bads that wouldn't even gem or enchant their gear are now the people who has to organize normal raiding, which they can't, their mentality doesn't go to well with trial & error and they are completely unwilling to wipe. These are the very people that would apply to a raiding guild back in the days and be /gkicked for having bad behaviour and demoralizing the rest of the guild with their constant whining. Not gonna comment further on this, you brought it on yourselves by "sticking it to the vets" and crying in forums over everything. Enjoy the remaining time of this chaos, Blizz really has to turn back to their faithful crowd in order to restore this game again and I hope it will be sooner, rather than later. Still subscribed, waiting for better times.

  14. #1214
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    My problem with raiding at the moment is that Throne of Thunder is the worst raid I have ever set foot in. I have absolutly hated most of the bosses so far. They are way to complex combined with way to high healing and DPS requirements, the music is terrible and the whole thing is 12 bosses in one line. I'm usually not the one to complain about linear stuff since I actually like some linearity, but 12 in a row in the same instance is just way to much. Durumu has already broken any will I have to even try him and I have wiped only about 10 times on him now.

    I liked Jin'rohk and Megaera but other then those two I can't really see myself liking the bosses in this tier. Obviously haven't experienced everything yet but from videos and such I am not optimistic.
    Are you kidding about the dps requirements? You get free 502 gear in LFR, rep 522 gear, nalak 522 gear, and so on. How are the requirements too high with all of that gear? You really have to be kidding or just really bad.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 09:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    So the question is why don't casuals help test on the PTR? If Blizzard sees a wipe rate of 95% on the PTR, surely they will make the live version significantly easier. All that has to happen is the casuals need to rise up and drown out the voice of the elitists, and they can do that by giving Blizzard proper feedback via the PTR.
    You do know that blizzard offers raids to progression guilds not casual guilds farming their all important pets lol. It doesnt matter what a casual does as blizzard isnt going to invite and tune around people doing 50% of the dps,hps they should be doing for their class/spec. Cmon people are normals really that hard? Normals are cleared in the first week by progression guilds. Not Hardcore but normal progression guilds, i know people will attempt to call their guilds progression guilds but be realistic as most guilds are casual guilds.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-15 at 09:30 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Out of curiosity does wowprogress also track my bank guild or the alt levelling guild that my dk was in on another realm.

    I mean claiming that there is 660k more guilds out there that want to raid but cant. compared to the 40k who have killed something is rather bold.

    The people who want to raid normal mode and the people who do LFR are 2 different kind of groups. Those who do LFR, do not automaticly want to raid normal mode
    But I will aggre that a lot of people of the LFR people would probably want to raid normal mode but can't because of logistics, time problems, can't find a guild, on a dead realm etc.
    Trying to recruit good players is a nightmare as the times have come as we pay for a good players server tranfer/faction change. It is much harder finding raiders to raid and actually down bosses in a timely manner meaning actual real progression. So most guilds are stuck with what they can find which leads to bosses being improperly named too hard or overtuned.

  15. #1215
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Are you kidding about the dps requirements? You get free 502 gear in LFR, rep 522 gear, nalak 522 gear, and so on. How are the requirements too high with all of that gear? You really have to be kidding or just really bad.
    People want to do the raid on normal before they have farmed LFR for gear and rep and Nalak for gear.
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    You do know that blizzard offers raids to progression guilds not casual guilds farming their all important pets lol. It doesnt matter what a casual does as blizzard isnt going to invite and tune around people doing 50% of the dps,hps they should be doing for their class/spec. Cmon people are normals really that hard? Normals are cleared in the first week by progression guilds. Not Hardcore but normal progression guilds, i know people will attempt to call their guilds progression guilds but be realistic as most guilds are casual guilds.
    That is some powerful stuff you are smoking there dude. Normal mode progresson guilds haven't cleared ToT yet and aren't even close.
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Trying to recruit good players is a nightmare as the times have come as we pay for a good players server tranfer/faction change. It is much harder finding raiders to raid and actually down bosses in a timely manner meaning actual real progression. So most guilds are stuck with what they can find which leads to bosses being improperly named too hard or overtuned.
    I think you are misunderstanding the data here. The reason it's hard to recruit is because the content is hard so you can't recruit anyone who isn't very good or better. Which makes the pool of recruits very small, since the vast minority of players are very good or better. Since there are so few recruits available, the competition for them becomes hard. Most guilds get stuck with the best they can get which isn't good enough for the current content. So they complain about the hard content. It is not improper when it's too hard for them and they can't recruit because the players who are good enough are pushed up in the system towards guilds with more progress and better track record of clearing content.

    What really needs to happen is that there is a gap between normal and heroic that is far larger then it is now. Heroic should be as hard as it is, but normal should be nerfed substantially.

    What needs to happen is that heroic is for hardcore progression people who want to wipe 50+ times to learn a boss and enjoy the challenge.
    Normal should be for people who show up on time gemmed, enchanted and geared and can be bothered to wipe 15-20 times to learn the fight.
    LFR should be for people who can't show up to specific times and don't have time to wipe more then 1 or 2 times per run, and for a mix of skilled people and beginners.

    Right now we have LFR where it needs to be, but normal and heroic are basically serving the same function. They are at slightly different skill levels, but they serve the same kind of people. The current model shoves the vast majority of people into LFR, while normal and heroic are both for 2 very niche groups that are very similar. In my opinion the game is far better served with a normal mode that is for a different type of player then heroic is. Right now they are to much the same.

  16. #1216
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    I'd just like to say, even at it's peak in WOTLK, as you say, very few people in the playerbase still actually participated in organized raiding.

    Making it easier to get into will help a little. But raiding in the organized capacity is never, ever, ever going to have large numbers. Just like dungeons won't. Just like Challenge modes won't. Just like Arena won't. Just like RBG's won't. Organization and expectations creates a noticeably huge barrier for entry for a lot of people who'd just rather flat out not deal with that in a videogame.
    The point is that there were more pug runs in Wotlk because ppl wanted to gear alts. LFR now takes care of that. So now the people that were filling up 25 man pugs for things like ICC or ToC are now choosing to do LFR instead and stopping their. And the organizers who were running those 25's or 10 man pugs have also resorted to LFR b4 bringing alts on their normal raids.

    The thread is asking where did the raiders go. And im saying that your peak raiding not raiders was because of the pugs in Wotlk. Those raids have now shifted to LFR being the prime source of raiding. So guys like my friend Ghel who thrived during the ICC days when he could gear all 6 of his toons, now cant find a pug to save his life on the same high pop server because LFR has taken the place of those pugs. But he runs LFR on his toons and they are geared but he doesnt want to stop their. He wants to do normals and heroics. But he cant because those raids are not getting pugged like they used to.

    It has nothing to do with the LFR drop rate and everything to do with the players mentality. Sure you guys may think that because you dont have the 'loot' that you wont want to do normals. But ive raided in blues plenty of times b4 purples got equiped. Blues never stopped me from raiding and i dont see why it should stop you. Casuals who used to raid normals on the other hand are content with stopping their. Doesnt matter if they have a full LFR set or not. They do not want to deal with the "drama" of organized raids. No one yells at them in LFR, DPS doesnt matter, heals dont matter. They can see the content and get the good looking gear and be done till the next raid comes out. All the drop rate means is that they will stay subbed longer if they planned on un subbing after acquiring a full set.

  17. #1217
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Why in gods name would I take the sound advice from someone who hasn't even sampled the content were talking about? I don't care about your previous experience because normal ToT BLOWS ALL OF THEM OUT OF THE WATER in terms of sheer difficulty. We have folks in that guild who were doing sunwell when it as current and this tier blows the piss out of that. Nothing in my own experience compares to ToT it really is paradigm shifting. Normals are now heroics on crack. I can't imagine what heroics are like.

    Your opinion as far as this current tier is concerned is completely invalid. Other people seem to pass the trial and I'm sure this guild will to and maybe even I will. It doesn't make it fun, it doesn't mean we can take many of our friends with us who were able to raid normals in the past and it doesn't mean this entire experience isn't frustrating. I don't assume everything I do is perfect, I leave that to heroic raiders. I ASSUME THAT NORMAL RAIDS allow me enough leeway that not everything I do has to be perfect. That's they key. Hell even when I do something like dodge rockfalls I STILL GET HIT WITH DAMAGE. Going back to 5.1 won't solve that. Going back to 5.0 won't solve that. Going back to clear raids we already cleared won 't solve a damn thing. Why in gods name should I wait for them to get their tuning act together? When you understand that people shouldn't youll understand where all the raiders have gone.
    ToT normals are not hard by any stretch. You don't have to be perfect to do normals at all, you just have to do your job and not stand in the fail. Our drunk alt run kills Tortos with 4 trade pugs.

  18. #1218
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Are you kidding about the dps requirements? You get free 502 gear in LFR, rep 522 gear, nalak 522 gear, and so on. How are the requirements too high with all of that gear? You really have to be kidding or just really bad.[COLOR="red"]
    That's like saying you have no right to complain about how living is too expensive because lottery has a multimillion jackpot.

  19. #1219
    Raiding became as stupid as dungeons. They lost their fun.

  20. #1220
    Deleted
    At the end it all boils down to what kind of person are you. If you are a guy who likes team play, coordination and challenge in video games then you will be raider and you won't go anywhere.
    Best times in video games for me were with my friends/guildies in organized gaming. Be that CS, CoD, Starcraft or WoW. And for that you need schedule.
    If you are satisfied with lesser gaming experience then you go to LFR. Most people are.

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