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  1. #1201
    Gear upgrades nerf content

    Lack of LFR gear equates to undergeared players unable to kill stuff in normal pugs, thus Normal mode representation is probably the lowest its ever been in WoW history

    In Cata, LFR was used like honor farming bg's to acquire gear, fast gearing process to move on to the next level. With the lowered chance to get gear in LFR its just become another long drawn out grind that people are bored with, 1HR. Que's another 1HR. run and no gear ='s see you next tuesday

  2. #1202
    Because of LFR there are less people doing normal raids. And so what? Overall, more people are raiding so it's win - win situation. Casuals and people who are satisfied with unorganized raiding have their fun and raiders have theirs. Ofc there will be people between, who are better then LFR but not good enough for normals. Only question is will they be loud enough to be heard.

  3. #1203
    I dont think its a win-win, Less guild participation is bad for the game. LFR is much faster then a normal raid

    A few hours a night, a few nights a week of guild raiding is what's being lost in the process

  4. #1204
    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaManHester View Post
    I dont think its a win-win, Less guild participation is bad for the game. LFR is much faster then a normal raid

    A few hours a night, a few nights a week of guild raiding is what's being lost in the process
    That's a by-product of LFR. Majority wanted it, here you go.

  5. #1205
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    Because of LFR there are less people doing normal raids. And so what? Overall, more people are raiding so it's win - win situation. Casuals and people who are satisfied with unorganized raiding have their fun and raiders have theirs. Ofc there will be people between, who are better then LFR but not good enough for normals. Only question is will they be loud enough to be heard.
    Yes and that is unfortunatly the damned problem, LFR as a feature is so popular that it is well killing of raiding teams. And no LFR is not raiding but that is another thread^^
    But well imo LFR leads to a lot of on and off subs, but that is just in my opinion we will have to wait untill new sub figures are released.

    I wouldn't say that a lot of people aren't goood enough for normals, now a days they simply can't be bothered to anymore why, because of the crapload of grinding being tossed their way so no I wouldn't say that normal raiders have their fun now a days.
    Last edited by Dax75; 2013-04-15 at 05:03 PM.

  6. #1206
    ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    Hm, I don't know where did you get 95% of the population but ok. If you want to raid in an unorganized group then you go LFR. If you don't have time, you go to LFR. Majority doesn't even raid.
    Which is precisely "where all the raiders have gone".

    I suspect that a lot of people who used to raid pre-LFR, only raided because it was the only way to see the content. When an alternative that didn't require the kind of commitment being on a raid team requires, they bailed on regular raiding. I'm one of those people. I had a lot of fun raiding and I wasn't a bad player (admittedly not the greatest either, but I do know how to interrupt and not stand in fire), but I hated the commitment and I got burnt out having to meet other people's schedules
    for my fun time. I know a lot of people who feel like I do, too.
    Stating an opinion as fact does not make it fact. Opinions are not fact. So don't be stupid and make a fool of yourself by trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

  7. #1207
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Blackmore View Post
    Which is precisely "where all the raiders have gone".

    I suspect that a lot of people who used to raid pre-LFR, only raided because it was the only way to see the content. When an alternative that didn't require the kind of commitment being on a raid team requires, they bailed on regular raiding. I'm one of those people. I had a lot of fun raiding and I wasn't a bad player (admittedly not the greatest either, but I do know how to interrupt and not stand in fire), but I hated the commitment and I got burnt out having to meet other people's schedules
    for my fun time. I know a lot of people who feel like I do, too.
    I'm in the same boat really. I'd call myself an averagely decent player, raided through most of Wrath, but the 2x a week thing on a schedule got the best of me, and I've never found it appealing to start again.... even before LFR came around.

    What's happening now between normals and LFR isn't going to change.. making normals easier isn't going to boost numbers there significantly, because the perks the LFR gives a lot of players is something that organized raiding can't really compete with.
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  8. #1208
    Quote Originally Posted by OmegaManHester View Post
    Gear upgrades nerf content

    Lack of LFR gear equates to undergeared players unable to kill stuff in normal pugs, thus Normal mode representation is probably the lowest its ever been in WoW history

    In Cata, LFR was used like honor farming bg's to acquire gear, fast gearing process to move on to the next level. With the lowered chance to get gear in LFR its just become another long drawn out grind that people are bored with, 1HR. Que's another 1HR. run and no gear ='s see you next tuesday
    Yea because b4 LFR was implemented no one could do normals back in Wrath when raiding was at its peak... o wait...

    The reason there is no normal pugs is because a bulk of the players who would be filling up those pugs are satisfied with just doing LFR each week. LFR has allowed players the ability to raid very easily and they dont need to worry about normals anymore. Want to gear your alt? Use LFR. Back in the day you needed pug 25 mans and 10 mans to gear your alts, now you have LFR and alot of players are content with stopping their while others are wondering where everyone went, assuming blizzards numbers are not wrong and the population is relatively the same then the only thing that has changed is LFR. Since ppl have LFR they dont need Normals.

    It has nothing to do with the drop rate of LFR gear and ppl not being geared for normals. The raids should be balanced starting with the highest gear available from dungeons, not starting at LFR.

  9. #1209
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Yes and that is unfortunatly the damned problem, LFR as a feature is so popular that it is well killing of raiding teams. And no LFR is not raiding but that is another thread^^
    (1) LFR is a horrible experience that makes one despair for the future of sanity, and

    (2) By their actions, large numbers of people are demonstrating that normal mode raiding is, for them, even worse.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  10. #1210
    Pandaren Monk Otiswhitaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Yea because b4 LFR was implemented no one could do normals back in Wrath when raiding was at its peak... o wait...

    The reason there is no normal pugs is because a bulk of the players who would be filling up those pugs are satisfied with just doing LFR each week. LFR has allowed players the ability to raid very easily and they dont need to worry about normals anymore. Want to gear your alt? Use LFR. Back in the day you needed pug 25 mans and 10 mans to gear your alts, now you have LFR and alot of players are content with stopping their while others are wondering where everyone went, assuming blizzards numbers are not wrong and the population is relatively the same then the only thing that has changed is LFR. Since ppl have LFR they dont need Normals.

    It has nothing to do with the drop rate of LFR gear and ppl not being geared for normals. The raids should be balanced starting with the highest gear available from dungeons, not starting at LFR.
    I'd just like to say, even at it's peak in WOTLK, as you say, very few people in the playerbase still actually participated in organized raiding.

    Making it easier to get into will help a little. But raiding in the organized capacity is never, ever, ever going to have large numbers. Just like dungeons won't. Just like Challenge modes won't. Just like Arena won't. Just like RBG's won't. Organization and expectations creates a noticeably huge barrier for entry for a lot of people who'd just rather flat out not deal with that in a videogame.

  11. #1211
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    It's a false argument as it has a false premis, so it has no meaning.
    You are simply proving my point now.

  12. #1212
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NigelGurney View Post
    You are simply proving my point now.
    No, I'm pretty sure I've just disproven your argument, as you're out of arguments yourself.
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  13. #1213
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    Yea because b4 LFR was implemented no one could do normals back in Wrath when raiding was at its peak... o wait...

    No heroic content was in-game until ToC, so was raid representation the highest in Wrath because only 1 25 man version of the raid was available to everyone.

    Players were also able to obtain current ilevel/Tier GEAR much easier via vendors for valor 2set, VoA bosses, fast 1 boss raids (Sarth+Maly).
    Even when Ony was released players getting competitive weapons from a one boss fight.



    It has nothing to do with the drop rate of LFR gear and ppl not being geared for normals. The raids should be balanced starting with the highest gear available from dungeons, not starting at LFR.
    The lower a players chance is to improve/obtain gear, the less likely they are to raid. Main or Alt the Lack of LFR gear has negatively affected raiding

  14. #1214
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    (1) LFR is a horrible experience that makes one despair for the future of sanity, and

    (2) By their actions, large numbers of people are demonstrating that normal mode raiding is, for them, even worse.
    1: yes LFR is a horrible experience that makes one despair for the future of sanity
    2: no not really because if you raid normals you have to raid LFR aswell in order to get gear upgrades, which brings us back to point number 1 .

    Doing LFR is not a a choice, it is not you can either do LFR or normal. The choice is do LFR or do LFR and normal mode and all the other crap you have to do to be prepared.
    Maybe Illidan could get a job around azeroth shouting "you are not prepared" at raiders.^^

  15. #1215
    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    1: yes LFR is a horrible experience that makes one despair for the future of sanity
    2: no not really because if you raid normals you have to raid LFR aswell in order to get gear upgrades, which brings us back to point number 1 .

    Doing LFR is not a a choice, it is not you can either do LFR or normal. The choice is do LFR or do LFR and normal mode and all the other crap you have to do to be prepared.
    Maybe Illidan could get a job around azeroth shouting "you are not prepared" at raiders.^^
    But there are large numbers of people who do LFR and not normals. These people, by their actions, demonstrate that they prefer LFR to normal. Think about that.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  16. #1216
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    What happened to public testing? My suspicion is this patch was rushed hard.
    Have you ever been to PTR? There are 3 kinds of people.
    1, Hardcore players who wants to test out the raids so they can advance very fast when the patch hits live.
    2, Streamers , "Bloggers" and so on, basically people who wants to post information for others.
    3, Peoples who dont play anymore, but go on ptr because its free.

    Raids are tested, but mostly by hardcore raiders, who clear normals on live in maximum 3 weeks from release. Thats the reason, casual players dont put effort into going on ptr with whole group to test the raids, they just wait.

  17. #1217
    My alt dk doesn't pug normal ToT because LFR refuses to drop any gear for me, except some garbage necklace that i don't need b/c the of valor 1

    I don't even bother with LFR anymore because the new LFR loot system has been completely broken in my experiences compared to the old system.
    You have no say on what piece of gear you need or what an rng based system will give to you.

    Receiving gear you have no use for is idiotic and more aggravating then getting no gear at all

  18. #1218
    I'd like to raid but I'm stuck in shit guilds that can barely clear last tier's normal with ilvl over 500. None of the "better" guilds needs my class (ret paladin) or want someone who's ilvl 520+ because they are already doing heroic ToT.

  19. #1219
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But there are large numbers of people who do LFR and not normals. These people, by their actions, demonstrate that they prefer LFR to normal. Think about that.
    A lot of people also prefer free beer compared to paying for beer...

    LFR is a piss easy loot pinata.
    And why do normals when you see the content anyway.
    And why do normals when you essentially have to do LFR aswell, then you might just stick with LFR to begin with.

    And it is not about preferring LFR to normal mode. that implies that there is some yes or no choice, either this way or the other, but at the end of the day normal mode raiding leads to people having to do LFR anyway.
    It is not a choice between LFR progression and normal mode progression. With normal mode you automaticly have to go through LFr as well for gear.

    In the end I would not claim that they prefer anything, in the end most people just settle for what is easiest for them to do in order to achieve a certain goal. And if that goal is to see some endboss and to see the socalled content killed, well you might as well just kill it in LFR.
    In a sense normal mode ends up being in the same place as heroic mode is.
    You have now killed the boss in LFR, what about killing him in normal mode. You have now killed him in normal mode what about killing him in heroic mode...
    Last edited by Dax75; 2013-04-15 at 09:02 PM.

  20. #1220
    Quote Originally Posted by Drekmar View Post
    Have you ever been to PTR? There are 3 kinds of people.
    1, Hardcore players who wants to test out the raids so they can advance very fast when the patch hits live.
    2, Streamers , "Bloggers" and so on, basically people who wants to post information for others.
    3, Peoples who dont play anymore, but go on ptr because its free.

    Raids are tested, but mostly by hardcore raiders, who clear normals on live in maximum 3 weeks from release. Thats the reason, casual players dont put effort into going on ptr with whole group to test the raids, they just wait.
    So the question is why don't casuals help test on the PTR? If Blizzard sees a wipe rate of 95% on the PTR, surely they will make the live version significantly easier. All that has to happen is the casuals need to rise up and drown out the voice of the elitists, and they can do that by giving Blizzard proper feedback via the PTR.

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