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  1. #1301
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    That's a big yuup.

    They of course hide behind Ghostcrawlers new favorite phrase "We'll support nearly any way to play. We can't promise your way is the most efficient." Which is just effectively paying lip service to the "We'll support nearly any way to play" part.
    And yet Ghostcrawler still has a job. Why hasn't he been replaced yet if the game lost so many subs during his tenure?

  2. #1302
    (normal) raiding is not dying. I don't know why people would think this is the case.

  3. #1303
    Quote Originally Posted by Derathenus View Post
    (normal) raiding is not dying. I don't know why people would think this is the case.

    Because normal raid participation is freefalling compared to previous Xpac

  4. #1304
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Exactly backwards.

    LFR exists because the ability of people to do normals decreases with every hike in difficulty. Blizzard still wants their sub money - hence LFR.
    I would say LFR exist because with the merger of the 10 and 25 man lockout and the subsequent increase in difficulty in 10 man, many guilds who used to raid in wrath where left without any raiding content.
    So yea some 10 man raiders wanted to be special snowflakes and wanted the same gear as 25 man raiders and bamm a lot of other wrath raiders can't cope with the difficulty any more.
    So yes LFR was a bandaid but it does also give a loot pinata event to many new people who get to smash the pinata till it drops loot and see the socalled content.

    So yes I blame the 10 and 25 man shared lockout for starting this whole mess of raiders leaving.
    Back in the day I didn't mind that 10 man normal mode was forgiving, I did some with alts for fun but did 25 man with my main.
    And 10 man raids and 25 man pugs where good places to get to learn people and maybe find people to recruit. It was also a nice stepping stone for new players that they could try raiding in the more intimate easier 10 man setting.

    And well now a days where you have a lot of mandatory things to do in order to be best prepared to raid (and that includes doing LFR for upgrades), Normal mode raiding has become rather time intensive and does not give that much in return. In an average guild you've already "seen" 50% of the bosses and killed them in LFR before you ever reach them in normal mode.

    So what does that bring you well if you wanted to see the content you might as well just go into LFR and see it.

    In the end one does have to speculate, when the LFR supporters say that only LFR make raiding financially viable, then why did they do raiding in the first place before didn't stop them before. And second if the normal and heroic raid participation keeps falling the way that it does will we reach a point where blizzard says nobody does normal or heroic raiding we will stop supporting it and only release "raids" as LFR.
    Last edited by Dax75; 2013-04-18 at 09:55 AM.

  5. #1305
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    And yet Ghostcrawler still has a job. Why hasn't he been replaced yet if the game lost so many subs during his tenure?
    Who said it was GC's fault? He's the game systems lead, not the head honcho.

    As for lack of firing over millions of sub losses (and that is a good question to wonder about!): either the person responsible is Morhaime (and he won't fire himself), or the decisionmaking structure is such that no one person was directly responsible (in which case Morhaime is again responsible, if indirectly.)
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  6. #1306
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Who said it was GC's fault? He's the game systems lead, not the head honcho.

    As for lack of firing over millions of sub losses (and that is a good question to wonder about!): either the person responsible is Morhaime (and he won't fire himself), or the decisionmaking structure is such that no one person was directly responsible (in which case Morhaime is again responsible, if indirectly.)
    I find this amazing too that no one has been fired for the massive sub losses, my guess is that the clause that prevents Activision from interfering in Blizzard's day to day running has offered some form of protection to those responsible. This is all well and good when you have massive amounts of new players entering into the game, as in the past, to mask the losses but I cannot see any other company showing such loyalty in the face of losing a quarter of their customers.

  7. #1307
    Herald of the Titans Injin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I find this amazing too that no one has been fired for the massive sub losses, my guess is that the clause that prevents Activision from interfering in Blizzard's day to day running has offered some form of protection to those responsible. This is all well and good when you have massive amounts of new players entering into the game, as in the past, to mask the losses but I cannot see any other company showing such loyalty in the face of losing a quarter of their customers.
    The other reason might be that sub losses have never changed, but sub recruitment has cratered. GC wouldn't be responsible for that, the marketing team would be. And even then, wows age etc is against it when it comes to getting new guys and gals.
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  8. #1308
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I find this amazing too that no one has been fired for the massive sub losses, my guess is that the clause that prevents Activision from interfering in Blizzard's day to day running has offered some form of protection to those responsible. This is all well and good when you have massive amounts of new players entering into the game, as in the past, to mask the losses but I cannot see any other company showing such loyalty in the face of losing a quarter of their customers.
    The clause (actually, a section of the corporate bylaws) have made me wonder about the management structure of Blizzard.

    The bylaws require that the Activision-Blizzard CEO (Kotick) put together an annual plan, which the board signs off on. Changes to this plan that affect Blizzard have to get written approval by the board.

    This insulates Blizzard from meddling, but I wonder if it also makes them less nimble.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  9. #1309
    They are not fired (maybe) because WoW is still after all this year n1 mmo.

  10. #1310
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    When the LFR supporters say that only LFR make raiding financially viable, then why did they do raiding in the first place before[ LFR?]
    Raiding participation fell between ICC and Firelands as the population of every server fell, and guilds/PuGs tightened up their entry requirements to raid with them, leaving many more would-be-raiders out in the cold.

    They raided in WotLK because it was accessible, and the community decided that it wanted to start shutting these people out.
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  11. #1311
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Raiding participation fell between ICC and Firelands as the population of every server fell, and guilds/PuGs tightened up their entry requirements to raid with them, leaving many more would-be-raiders out in the cold.

    They raided in WotLK because it was accessible, and the community decided that it wanted to start shutting these people out.
    I would say it was Blizzard that started shutting people out when they increased the difficulty of normals. Guilds had no choice but to increase their entry requirements so the guild wouldn't fail miserably at the new raids and have their guild fall apart.

  12. #1312
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    So, LF Arenas, LF Normal Raids and LF Rated BGs coming up soon then?
    You can already 'practice' arena, no?

    Yes, I can certainly see a LF 10 man option at some point. And rated bg's not being solo-que was a huge huge mistake to begin with.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-18 at 10:05 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Funny, I had exactly the opposite feeling. Blizzard bends over backwards to snub the casuals, only grudgingly doing anything for them. Tiny numbers of favored-child elite players get attention all out of proportion to their number.
    Reality of the games development disagrees with you. The overall scope of content in this game is heavily slanted in favor of casual players.. and if you look at the game as a whole, you would agree.

    If anything, the casual player (for lack of a better word) spends a lot more time demanding that content be adjusted down than 'elitists' do asking for exclusion. And Blizzard does listen.

    The current trend of eventually nerfing even heroic mode raids (weekly buff stacks) reflects this.
    The ongoing trend of making leveling quicker reflects this.
    Every new feature, UI change, etc put in game is to make things easier. Look at how questing is now vs. 5 years ago, for example.
    etc.

    Very little unique content is developed to be truly challenging. You'll get 1, maybe 2 heroic-only raid bosses per expansion. Challenge modes are dungeon rehashes with different stats.
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  13. #1313
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You can already 'practice' arena, no?
    That's the twos queue, still need a friend for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    And rated bg's not being solo-que was a huge huge mistake to begin with.
    I can only agree with this. Arena's been split between those that want CP (twos) and those that want rating (threes), don't see why there's no parity with Rated BGs.
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  14. #1314
    I have always been a raider but I got bored very quickly after MoP and stopped playing right after my guild started to raid. I also really no longer like having WoW as a "second job" which requires me to be on and play certain nights and times. Sometimes I want to go to bed early or just watch TV but couldn't because I has promised many weeks prior I would be at the raid. I loved the group I raided with and miss playing with them but I don't miss the "second job" aspect at all.

  15. #1315
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Reality of the games development disagrees with you. The overall scope of content in this game is heavily slanted in favor of casual players.. and if you look at the game as a whole, you would agree.

    If anything, the casual player (for lack of a better word) spends a lot more time demanding that content be adjusted down than 'elitists' do asking for exclusion. And Blizzard does listen.

    The current trend of eventually nerfing even heroic mode raids (weekly buff stacks) reflects this.
    The ongoing trend of making leveling quicker reflects this.
    Every new feature, UI change, etc put in game is to make things easier. Look at how questing is now vs. 5 years ago, for example.
    etc.

    Very little unique content is developed to be truly challenging. You'll get 1, maybe 2 heroic-only raid bosses per expansion. Challenge modes are dungeon rehashes with different stats.
    Shitty normal tuning, the atrocious valor gain, the lack of anything worthwhile to use justice points for (i.e not making old valor gear costg justice points) the atrocious rep grind to even SPEND valor, emphasis on daily quest grinding for a pittance of rep each quest, the abusrd amount of hp on the mobs in pandaria, gated lfr release, the utterly HORRID leveling experience from 85 to 90, lack of flying for alts (indeed the entire alt unfriendly experience), removal of hgwt and 100% quick and the dead (an apparent "bug") and a host of other piss poor decisions suggest other wise. This experience caters to ONE group of players, and it isn't casual and even the developers acknowledge this. GC himself said it "Non-casuals are more likely to stick with us". This expansion has been a terrible grind and it's not casual friendly iin the slightest. It is squarely aimed at one group.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-18 at 03:33 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  16. #1316
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I find this amazing too that no one has been fired for the massive sub losses, my guess is that the clause that prevents Activision from interfering in Blizzard's day to day running has offered some form of protection to those responsible. This is all well and good when you have massive amounts of new players entering into the game, as in the past, to mask the losses but I cannot see any other company showing such loyalty in the face of losing a quarter of their customers.
    Since you don't know why the sub losses occurred, why would you think that someone should be fired?

  17. #1317
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    The other reason might be that sub losses have never changed, but sub recruitment has cratered. GC wouldn't be responsible for that, the marketing team would be. And even then, wows age etc is against it when it comes to getting new guys and gals.
    I think you are right that there has always been a large number sub losses but these were masked by new players. Personally I don't think Ghostcrawler is the route of all evil that some make him out to be, but whoever in Blizzard is responsible for the lack of new players, and I think it is a lot more complicated than just a marketing problem, would probably not be afforded the luxury of almost two and half years (since Cata) to address the issue in most other walks of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thalmar View Post
    They are not fired (maybe) because WoW is still after all this year n1 mmo.
    WOW might still be the number one MMO but its ability to generate income is significantly worse than it was three years ago and it is not showing much signs of turning that around many other companies would have had wholesale changes of personnel in such a position.

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Reality of the games development disagrees with you. The overall scope of content in this game is heavily slanted in favor of casual players.. and if you look at the game as a whole, you would agree.

    If anything, the casual player (for lack of a better word) spends a lot more time demanding that content be adjusted down than 'elitists' do asking for exclusion. And Blizzard does listen.

    The current trend of eventually nerfing even heroic mode raids (weekly buff stacks) reflects this.
    The ongoing trend of making leveling quicker reflects this.
    Every new feature, UI change, etc put in game is to make things easier. Look at how questing is now vs. 5 years ago, for example.
    etc.

    Very little unique content is developed to be truly challenging. You'll get 1, maybe 2 heroic-only raid bosses per expansion. Challenge modes are dungeon rehashes with different stats.
    WOW is far from casual whilst many parts of it might be easy it is very time consuming, just to cap your weekly VP via LFR and throwing in a couple of heroics you can spend upwards of four to five hours queuing.

    Most casual players are not interested in and never set foot in a normal, let alone heroic, raid and the nerfing of levelling if anything is more aimed the hardcore player that wants to jump into end game content as quickly as possible than casual players.

    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Since you don't know why the sub losses occurred, why would you think that someone should be fired?
    I'm sorry where did I say someone should be fired?
    Last edited by Pann; 2013-04-18 at 03:42 PM.

  18. #1318
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Christ they even got rid of the your first 7 heroics will award valor. That was extremely casual friendly. I could get valor at any point and NOT MISS OUT on it. Now I can get valor at any point but I miss out on the bonus. It's lame and is only for hard cores who can log on every day.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #1319
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    just to cap your weekly VP via LFR and throwing in a couple of heroics you can spend upwards of four to five hours queuing.
    The way you do this is queue for LFR, then queue for random LFD, then queue for random scenario. The scenario will pop almost immediately. After it's done, the random heroic 5 man will pop, and when that's done, you usually have just a short wait for LFR (if not, do some more scenarios/5 mans while you wait). Alternately, if you want to do dailies for lesser charms, you can do that while waiting. Useless downtime can be kept to a minimum.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  20. #1320
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I'm sorry where did I say someone should be fired?
    In the post I quoted....here it is again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I find this amazing too that no one has been fired for the massive sub losses

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