1. #1321
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The way you do this is queue for LFR, then queue for random LFD, then queue for random scenario. The scenario will pop almost immediately. After it's done, the random heroic 5 man will pop, and when that's done, you usually have just a short wait for LFR (if not, do some more scenarios/5 mans while you wait). Alternately, if you want to do dailies for lesser charms, you can do that while waiting. Useless downtime can be kept to a minimum.
    Don't get me wrong I know that you can do other things whilst waiting in the queue but the amount of time needed to accomplish anything in game is far from casual.

    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    In the post I quoted....here it is again:
    I think you should reread what I wrote, where does it say that I think anyone should be fired?

  2. #1322
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Shitty normal tuning, the atrocious valor gain, the lack of anything worthwhile to use justice points for (i.e not making old valor gear costg justice points) the atrocious rep grind to even SPEND valor, emphasis on daily quest grinding for a pittance of rep each quest, the abusrd amount of hp on the mobs in pandaria, gated lfr release, the utterly HORRID leveling experience from 85 to 90, lack of flying for alts (indeed the entire alt unfriendly experience), removal of hgwt and 100% quick and the dead (an apparent "bug") and a host of other piss poor decisions suggest other wise. This experience caters to ONE group of players, and it isn't casual and even the developers acknowledge this. GC himself said it "Non-casuals are more likely to stick with us". This expansion has been a terrible grind and it's not casual friendly iin the slightest. It is squarely aimed at one group.
    JP's are somewhat irrelevant for many, sure. But they're also not really relevant in this topic.

    Grinds aren't challenging content though. Blizzard wants you subbed, and to remain subbed, and to do that, they design content that makes you want to play often and consistently. This is nothing new, it's how MMOs have always operated. And when they don't, subs fluctuate, players feel like there's nothing to do, etc.

    And leveling in this, or any other expansion, isn't difficult. At all.
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  3. #1323
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    Don't get me wrong I know that you can do other things whilst waiting in the queue but the amount of time needed to accomplish anything in game is far from casual.
    That may be true, but because you can do other (useful) things during the wait, the queue time does not actually count as wasted time. The total time spent is (time in LFR + time in other content), not (time in LFR + time in LFR queue + time in other content).
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  4. #1324
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    I think you should reread what I wrote, where does it say that I think anyone should be fired?
    So when you say "I find it amazing no one was fired" - you do not think anyone should be fired? I'm not trying to be nitpciky. Just trying to understand what you wer trying to say. I read it, and it seemed like you thought someone should have been fired, but noone was.

  5. #1325
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That may be true, but because you can do other (useful) things during the wait, the queue time does not actually count as wasted time. The total time spent is (time in LFR + time in other content), not (time in LFR + time in LFR queue + time in other content).
    From reading your previous posts about how many alts you cap each week I guess you have it down to fine art. I was trying to highlight that even the casual play is not so casual and to be honest I think this is one of the reasons for falling interest in MMOs, but that is a whole other discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    So when you say "I find it amazing no one was fired" - you do not think anyone should be fired? I'm not trying to be nitpciky. Just trying to understand what you wer trying to say. I read it, and it seemed like you thought someone should have been fired, but noone was.
    WOW is the primary source of income for Blizzard and during the past two and half years it has lost almost a quarter of its customer base many other companies would have fired multiple personnel for such poor results that is all my comment meant. I made no mention of whether I think anyone should be fired or not.

  6. #1326
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    So when you say "I find it amazing no one was fired" - you do not think anyone should be fired?
    If there's an accident and I say "I'm amazed no one was killed", am I saying that someone should be killed?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  7. #1327
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    If there's an accident and I say "I'm amazed no one was killed", am I saying that someone could have been killed?
    Fixed that for you, as it's what's usually meant.
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  8. #1328
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    JP's are somewhat irrelevant for many, sure. But they're also not really relevant in this topic.

    Grinds aren't challenging content though. Blizzard wants you subbed, and to remain subbed, and to do that, they design content that makes you want to play often and consistently. This is nothing new, it's how MMOs have always operated. And when they don't, subs fluctuate, players feel like there's nothing to do, etc.

    And leveling in this, or any other expansion, isn't difficult. At all.
    i would rephrase one part of your reply;

    "Blizzard wants you subbed, and to remain subbed, and to do that, they design content that makes you feel like you have to play often and consistently"

    from the comments on this site about dailies, i dont think anyone really WANTS to do them.
    When challenging a Kzin, a simple scream of rage is sufficient. You scream and you leap.

    The volume of new game features and content in MoP is a direct consequence of people cancelling subscriptions during Cataclysm. You're welcome.

  9. #1329
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    WOW is the primary source of income for Blizzard and during the past two and half years it has lost almost a quarter of its customer base many other companies would have fired multiple personnel for such poor results that is all my comment meant. I made no mention of whether I think anyone should be fired or not.
    ok - got it. I guess I just think that the "many companies" don't practice good business practices. Blindly firing people for loss of money is not usually a good solution unless you have direct evidence that the loss was tied directly to those people.

  10. #1330
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Fixed that for you, as it's what's usually meant.
    The point I was making was the separation of factual observations of expected outcomes, and normative statements about the outcomes. "Is" vs. "ought".
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  11. #1331
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The point I was making was the separation of factual observations of expected outcomes, and normative statements about the outcomes. "Is" vs. "ought".
    I know what your point was, but it did not apply to what I was trying to say. I was just interpreting Pann's comment as he thought that someone "ought" to have been fired. He clarified that he did not think that. Instead, he was neutral on the subject, and just knew that many companies would blindly fire people when large losses happened.

    It was a minsinterpretation on my part.

  12. #1332
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    JP's are somewhat irrelevant for many, sure. But they're also not really relevant in this topic.

    Grinds aren't challenging content though. Blizzard wants you subbed, and to remain subbed, and to do that, they design content that makes you want to play often and consistently. This is nothing new, it's how MMOs have always operated. And when they don't, subs fluctuate, players feel like there's nothing to do, etc.

    And leveling in this, or any other expansion, isn't difficult. At all.
    In the past JP served as a pretty good way for the CASUAL PLAYER to catch up but more importantly as a way to reward him for the limited time he could invest. It is totally relevant.


    Difficulty isn't the issue. Time consumption is the issue. While normal raiding is skewed in terms of the difficulty, the rest of the game is equally as daunting for the casual player in terms of TIME TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING. While that may not equal difficulty in the traditional sense of the word it does equal frustration and in the same fashion it does lock casual players out of alot of content in favor of hard cores who both have the skill, the time, and the actual care.

    WoW calling itself an MMO is a meaningless title to be honest. They could themselves adventure game for all I care. The fact is this expansion is potentially the least casual friendly expansion since TBC maybe even vanilla and more over it marks a signifcant departure from increasing casual accessibility to punitive and grindy playstyle that is imposing and presents a wall for the casual player.

    Lvling this expansion isn't difficult, but it is a pain in the fucking asshole. Mobs have to much hp, their aren't enough dungeons to break up the experience, their aren't enough different style quests to break up the experience, and on the whole it just takes to much time. Being bored is a pretty big challenge to overcome.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-18 at 04:46 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  13. #1333
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    Lvling this expansion isn't difficult, but it is a pain in the fucking asshole. Mobs have to much hp, their aren't enough dungeons to break up the experience, their aren't enough different style quests to break up the experience, and on the whole it just takes to much time. Being bored is a pretty big challenge to overcome.
    Every time I leveled, it seemed like there were more different style quests in this expansion relative to any other. Are you sure people aren't getting bored just because they have been playing this same game for so long?

  14. #1334
    Over 9000! Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Every time I leveled, it seemed like there were more different style quests in this expansion relative to any other. Are you sure people aren't getting bored just because they have been playing this same game for so long?
    Their isn't. Cataclysm had far more variety. The only quest that stood out I can remember from mists is the quest where you snipe as the orc chick. The rest were all either follow the stupid panda, collect this, or kill that. And all of them took far to long to accomplish. In part beacuse mobs have to much hp but also because theirs to much god damn mob density. In Cataclysm I was rescuing bears out of trees, I was a gunner in a plane, I tamed a seahorse... I did a whole bunch of crap.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  15. #1335
    Quote Originally Posted by yjmark View Post
    Every time I leveled, it seemed like there were more different style quests in this expansion relative to any other. Are you sure people aren't getting bored just because they have been playing this same game for so long?
    The problem I had with leveling in MoP is they increased the mob hp/player dps ratio. It felt like questing stuck in tar, it was so slow.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  16. #1336
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That may be true, but because you can do other (useful) things during the wait, the queue time does not actually count as wasted time. The total time spent is (time in LFR + time in other content), not (time in LFR + time in LFR queue + time in other content).
    It's wasted time if you're doing those other things merely to find something useful to do while you wait to do the real thing you actively want to do.

    I can read War and Peace or do a lot of productive things while in a line. It doesn't mean that time couldn't be better spent doing something else entirely and that I should appreciate the line instead of being annoyed by it.

    If the only time waster in game was LFR queues, it might be okay but it's not. But then again every minute of someone's time that is wasted in China is more money for Blizzard so I guess we better get used to it.

  17. #1337
    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    It's wasted time if you're doing those other things merely to find something useful to do while you wait to do the real thing you actively want to do.
    The person I was responding to was talking about the time required to cap VP. Scenario + heroic is a fine way to earn VP while waiting for LFR to pop. I easily cap VP on one character by thursday using this approach.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler

  18. #1338
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Raiding participation fell between ICC and Firelands as the population of every server fell, and guilds/PuGs tightened up their entry requirements to raid with them, leaving many more would-be-raiders out in the cold.

    They raided in WotLK because it was accessible, and the community decided that it wanted to start shutting these people out.
    Well blizzards change in lockout and bringing 10 man up to the difficulty of 25 man, of course lead to fewer being able to do the content. And of course this leads to the community only recruiting fit raiders. So yea they did take them with them anymore because it wasn't possible anymore because of the changes that blizzard had done.

  19. #1339
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dax75 View Post
    Well blizzards change in lockout and bringing 10 man up to the difficulty of 25 man, of course lead to fewer being able to do the content. And of course this leads to the community only recruiting fit raiders. So yea they did take them with them anymore because it wasn't possible anymore because of the changes that blizzard had done.
    If you want to keep on playing the "And By Extension" card...

    The change in the lockout was because players were getting burned out on running 10-man and 25-man raids. All Blizzard really do nowadays is fix community problems (LFD, LFR) and provide content.
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  20. #1340
    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Join a guild when the tier is over. You'll get at least a 1-2 week trial, which you should breeze through if your skill is as high as you claim.
    The problem is that gear >>>> skill A FREAKING LOT nowadays. And in the end of tier he would have something like 515-520 iLvl with crappy lfr weapon; and while on a test run with at least full normal + tf geared + some heroic + some tf heroic geared 530+ players his skill would be invisible. Also, him being a Ret paladin makes things even worse, since Ret atm is the worst plate dps class for 10m at least.

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