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  1. #141
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    For one thing, you've displayed in many comments yourself, highly, HIGHLY toxic behavior. Throwing off the cuff insults at people for doing certain things, wanting to remove people from being able to do certain things and so forth. Secondly, I do understand there's a certain skill level. That's fine. You just can't assume everyone new is horrible by virtue of being new, which is generally a thing in the raiding community, and why it isn't growing, and hasn't really grown all that much since WOTLK. It's like the old guard wants to keep within it's own old guard, or whatever. I think you didn't understand what I was getting at, not really. The problem is, is that to a lot of people, experience > skill, or experience = skill, or whatever. Basically, people whom have never done something, are 90% of the time, going to never be allowed to do it, by virtue of having never done it. That's a problem.

    Also, if you think the toxic behavior doesn't exist, that's absurd. Toxicity in every aspect of this game pervades it's community. It's horrible. The only thing worse off is League of Legends/Other MOBA games.
    Again. You are not correct. Not when it comes to me i particular. And I can only argue for me on this subject.

    A player who shows no experience through gearing, a look at their armory and boss kills along with who they completed them with to ensure they were not purchased, and a quick glance at their spreadsheet on askmrrobot will be excluded from bring PUGGED into and form of progression kill or even farm content with my guild. We are not raiding to share our experience with players from other guilds, or carry players who refuse to put in the work to learn on their own.

    This goes double for a player wishing to pug into a raid near the end of a patch when everything is on farm, has been out for months and it is generally expected that players should know the content.

    So far I am the model of what you are stating.

    NOW....

    A new Guild member is asked to run in one of our raids. After doing the same checks on leaning that we would prior to taking a pug into a raid we ask that player to correct any deficiencies, use guild resources to facilitate them doing so, point them at the guild resources to have some grasp of the bosses we will be encountering, then have experienced players in the group help that player if he struggles with the content until such time as he proves that he is beyond help and needs to be replaced for the good of the group.

    Two totally different scenarios. You will always have the player who refuses to "bow down" to the guild structure. You will always have the player who doesn't see the need to spend gold, valor, time on upgrading gear "because I will only replace it in raid". And you will always have the players that choose to be a valued member of the team by doing everything they can to improve and validate their being in the group in the first place.

    Would you honestly choose to run with only players who will ensure that you never complete or players who put in the effort to?





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  2. #142
    Mechagnome Ridesdel's Avatar
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    All ranks are server, not world.

    I will say this, I have raided since TBC, I started shortly after the start of TBC, and rocketed a maged up to 70, faster than many thought possible, because, after talking to a few "Hardcore Raiders" in school they said it was the most fun they have ever had. So in TBC I was DPS, my guild never got very far because even though we where relatively good, not the best, but better than average, we where used as a stepping stone guild. In fact, many of the people who where in the top 3 horde guild came through my guild, but that's another post for another topic.

    Come WotLK, this time I leveled my alt prot/holydin up to raid level and raided as the off tank in 10 man, and heals in 25. while we where never top of the progression lists we where in the top 25 of the server most of the time. ICC comes out, and for a while we are in the top 10, but then the raid lead of the 2nd 10 man group has a disagreement with the guild leader because he was stripped of his officer rank because he did not show up to his raids for a week, left the guild, and took nearly all our raiders except for the ones that where with us since TBC, as when they where recruited they went through the secondary 10 group instead of the core.

    Cata comes, several more raiders have left due to burn out, and do not come back. But still we are able to raid, but this xpac we started raiding before we where ready, to great consequences, the first tier we couldn't get past the first 2 bosses because once we started raiding most people thought they had enough gear to get the first few bosses down, and devoted all their time to gathering mats for flasks and feasts instead of farming heroic 5mans. After about 2 months of this I had an argument with another of the raiders over how to down a boss, simple thing really, but at the time it was our 5th wipe of the night, but no changing tactics so everyone was running hot, I just had hit my boiling point then and took a 3 month break to come back during 4.2. I went back to raiding on my holydin, but not with my guild group because of the way I had just disappeared for 3 months, I waited until they offered me my spot back, instead of demanding it back. All if fine and dandy until DS, LFR comes out and the raiding population explodes due to alts being able to get geared enough to start DS. We go back to having 2 10 man groups we progress along the back end of the bell curve, but still fairly quick, and everything is fine....fast forward 5 months, back down to one group, but still doing normal because it was an easy farm, noone raided on alts other than LFR, just getting burned out.

    Now MoP, first few months, big population of raiders, our guild has no trouble getting the people on for raids, but lots of trouble getting gear due to the daily grind and poor luck in heroics. When we finally get our gear to 460+ for all of our raiders, our pool had shrunk to the core 7 people that have been raiding with us since begining of Wrath, and a few long time members that just got into raiding in MoP. Despite trying to recruit, many of the competent raiders have left the server, or stoped playing, during end cata, leaving just recount heroes to choose from, many who don't last long because they refuse to learn the fights. come the current patch, 5.2, small bump in trade about people looking for 1 DPS/Heal/Tank for 20-30 min at a time, but when Sha is up a full 40 man takes less than 10 min to fill, with the last 5 min looking for tanks and healers if it's not started by a guild.


    TL;DR Through out the history of WoW my guild has seen first hand the rise of raiding in TBC and WotLK, but then the serious, and profound decline begining Cata, and the subsequent rise when LFR came out, and the drop again, when gating for entry level came back.

    Moral of this rant? If the starting tier of raids where not so heavily gated, but more like Naxx(WotLK) we would see a bigger pool of raiders because they don't give up so early because of the massive amount of work you would have to put in to get the gear level to even walk into a raid and expect to have a snowball's chance to down even the first boss.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Senior NCO in the Army National Guard which requires me to donate more time than my "one weekend a month". See selfless service.
    Low level manager in Fortune 500 company.
    Expecting Father.
    Uh huh, I'm an astronaut and fight herds of t-rex in space to protect Earth.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    Again. You are not correct. Not when it comes to me i particular. And I can only argue for me on this subject.

    A player who shows no experience through gearing, a look at their armory and boss kills along with who they completed them with to ensure they were not purchased, and a quick glance at their spreadsheet on askmrrobot will be excluded from bring PUGGED into and form of progression kill or even farm content with my guild. We are not raiding to share our experience with players from other guilds, or carry players who refuse to put in the work to learn on their own.

    This goes double for a player wishing to pug into a raid near the end of a patch when everything is on farm, has been out for months and it is generally expected that players should know the content.

    So far I am the model of what you are stating.

    NOW....

    A new Guild member is asked to run in one of our raids. After doing the same checks on leaning that we would prior to taking a pug into a raid we ask that player to correct any deficiencies, use guild resources to facilitate them doing so, point them at the guild resources to have some grasp of the bosses we will be encountering, then have experienced players in the group help that player if he struggles with the content until such time as he proves that he is beyond help and needs to be replaced for the good of the group.

    Two totally different scenarios. You will always have the player who refuses to "bow down" to the guild structure. You will always have the player who doesn't see the need to spend gold, valor, time on upgrading gear "because I will only replace it in raid". And you will always have the players that choose to be a valued member of the team by doing everything they can to improve and validate their being in the group in the first place.

    Would you honestly choose to run with only players who will ensure that you never complete or players who put in the effort to?
    But, again, doesn't that ensure that new people are excluded by virtue of being new? Don't you see that as a problem? It's absolutely unfair. It's not like they're magically going to get to do content elsewhere. They'll be shoehorned into just being able to do something like LFR, because no one will "allow" them to do anything else, because.... they've never done it before. Regardless of how much effort they've put in, or are putting in. They simple lack the previous experience, and thus, aren't allowed to do stuff. That IS a problem. How isn't it a problem? Why should new people be excluded from activities because they weren't there from the beginning?

    Let's propose this scenario: There's a guy who wants to raid. He's min-maxing up the wazoo. He reads up on his class. He's gemmed, enchanted, and all that. He has maxed out cooking, he has all the right professions. He has his flasks. He has all that stuff. Only problem is, is he's never been in a raiding guild. he's never raided before. He has zero experience. Should he be punished for that?
    Last edited by Otiswhitaker; 2013-03-18 at 02:52 PM.

  5. #145
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridesdel View Post
    All ranks are server, not world.

    I will say this, I have raided since TBC, I started shortly after the start of TBC, and rocketed a maged up to 70, faster than many thought possible, because, after talking to a few "Hardcore Raiders" in school they said it was the most fun they have ever had. So in TBC I was DPS, my guild never got very far because even though we where relatively good, not the best, but better than average, we where used as a stepping stone guild. In fact, many of the people who where in the top 3 horde guild came through my guild, but that's another post for another topic.

    Come WotLK, this time I leveled my alt prot/holydin up to raid level and raided as the off tank in 10 man, and heals in 25. while we where never top of the progression lists we where in the top 25 of the server most of the time. ICC comes out, and for a while we are in the top 10, but then the raid lead of the 2nd 10 man group has a disagreement with the guild leader because he was stripped of his officer rank because he did not show up to his raids for a week, left the guild, and took nearly all our raiders except for the ones that where with us since TBC, as when they where recruited they went through the secondary 10 group instead of the core.

    Cata comes, several more raiders have left due to burn out, and do not come back. But still we are able to raid, but this xpac we started raiding before we where ready, to great consequences, the first tier we couldn't get past the first 2 bosses because once we started raiding most people thought they had enough gear to get the first few bosses down, and devoted all their time to gathering mats for flasks and feasts instead of farming heroic 5mans. After about 2 months of this I had an argument with another of the raiders over how to down a boss, simple thing really, but at the time it was our 5th wipe of the night, but no changing tactics so everyone was running hot, I just had hit my boiling point then and took a 3 month break to come back during 4.2. I went back to raiding on my holydin, but not with my guild group because of the way I had just disappeared for 3 months, I waited until they offered me my spot back, instead of demanding it back. All if fine and dandy until DS, LFR comes out and the raiding population explodes due to alts being able to get geared enough to start DS. We go back to having 2 10 man groups we progress along the back end of the bell curve, but still fairly quick, and everything is fine....fast forward 5 months, back down to one group, but still doing normal because it was an easy farm, noone raided on alts other than LFR, just getting burned out.

    Now MoP, first few months, big population of raiders, our guild has no trouble getting the people on for raids, but lots of trouble getting gear due to the daily grind and poor luck in heroics. When we finally get our gear to 460+ for all of our raiders, our pool had shrunk to the core 7 people that have been raiding with us since begining of Wrath, and a few long time members that just got into raiding in MoP. Despite trying to recruit, many of the competent raiders have left the server, or stoped playing, during end cata, leaving just recount heroes to choose from, many who don't last long because they refuse to learn the fights. come the current patch, 5.2, small bump in trade about people looking for 1 DPS/Heal/Tank for 20-30 min at a time, but when Sha is up a full 40 man takes less than 10 min to fill, with the last 5 min looking for tanks and healers if it's not started by a guild.


    TL;DR Through out the history of WoW my guild has seen first hand the rise of raiding in TBC and WotLK, but then the serious, and profound decline begining Cata, and the subsequent rise when LFR came out, and the drop again, when gating for entry level came back.

    Moral of this rant? If the starting tier of raids where not so heavily gated, but more like Naxx(WotLK) we would see a bigger pool of raiders because they don't give up so early because of the massive amount of work you would have to put in to get the gear level to even walk into a raid and expect to have a snowball's chance to down even the first boss.
    well written and brings me to thoughts of "hey do I know this guy?" as your experiences so mirror some of my own. although I agree with what you say in principle I accept things the way that they are and try to overcome them as they are intended.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 10:53 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    But, again, doesn't that ensure that new people are excluded by virtue of being new? Don't you see that as a problem? It's absolutely unfair. It's not like they're magically going to get to do content elsewhere. They'll be shoehorned into just being able to do something like LFR, because no one will "allow" them to do anything else, because.... they've never done it before. Regardless of how much effort they've put in, or are putting in. They simple lack the previous experience, and thus, aren't allowed to do stuff. That IS a problem. How isn't it a problem? Why should new people be excluded from activities because they weren't there from the beginning?

    Let's propose this scenario: There's a guy who wants to raid. He's min-maxing up the wazoo. He reads up on his class. He's gemmed, enchanted, and all that. He has maxed out cooking, he has all the right professions. He has his flasks. He has all that stuff. Only problem is, is he's never been in a raiding guild. he's never raided before. He has zero experience. Should he be punished for that?
    The player that you mentioned would easily find his way into an alt run of farm content.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  6. #146
    Blame LFR. Bring back TBC raid model, that is all.
    One reason for WoW decline I often hear is that its an old game and naturally people get bored with it. But TV is much older and people still watch that. Surely if a thing you once enjoyed keept staying fun, you would still use it?

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    well written and brings me to thoughts of "hey do I know this guy?" as your experiences so mirror some of my own. although I agree with what you say in principle I accept things the way that they are and try to overcome them as they are intended.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 10:53 AM ----------



    The player that you mentioned would easily find his way into an alt run of farm content.
    That's good! That's not the norm, seemingly, though. At least on my server (Blackrock-US)

  8. #148
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    That's good! That's not the norm, seemingly, though. At least on my server (Blackrock-US)
    if you look at it again. that playe is also where all the raiders are at the begining of a patch. all min maxed in thier shiney new blues that have replaced the majority of their old heroic gear.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  9. #149
    Mechagnome Ridesdel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    That's good! That's not the norm, seemingly, though. At least on my server (Blackrock-US)
    Someone(s) like that would easily find a spot, and wind up replacing someone(s) in my raid team without a second of hesitation after (s)he has shown they can follow instructions, without a doubt. But I'm on Terrokar-US, AKA Terrobad/Terrofail since mid-late LK xP

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Number 3 is a really, really, really good point. Most raiders I've seen are a VERY unaccepting bunch, and just want people who've already raided with other guilds in the past. Usually, anyways. Not always. but it seems abnormally, and unfortunately common. Raiders, with their toxic attitudes, will eventually make organized raiding a ghost town in a few years. It's pretty much already heading that way.

    And let's face it, the elephant in the room that everyone wants to ignore is that from the game's launch in 2004, till T15 in 2013, not many people have ever really raided all that much. You'd think knowing that, these people would be a little less.... the way they are.

    I was in a guild (briefly) that rather than give loot to a recruit that was still in their first month trial would DE it. It was stupid and sickening to watch, especially when it was a rare item like a heroic shield.

    This guild is still around, ranking around 500 world atm.
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven?

  11. #151
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ridesdel View Post
    Someone(s) like that would easily find a spot, and wind up replacing someone(s) in my raid team without a second of hesitation after (s)he has shown they can follow instructions, without a doubt. But I'm on Terrokar-US, AKA Terrobad/Terrofail since mid-late LK xP
    The point is that a raid leader can be selective but fair, have good reasons for being so yet be labled a/n (he wont take me because it's my own fault for not trying).

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 11:03 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Galaddriel View Post
    I was in a guild (briefly) that rather than give loot to a recruit that was still in their first month trial would DE it. It was stupid and sickening to watch, especially when it was a rare item like a heroic shield.

    This guild is still around, ranking around 500 world atm.
    Although that loot scheme seems brutal even to me, it apperantly worked for them.





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  12. #152
    there is no point to join a raid now when you can see all content by lfr etc might as well focus on having fun then suffering trough raids with lootwhores guildrama afk marathons and the risk of jerks and douchebags that you have to get along with to progress.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post

    Let's propose this scenario: There's a guy who wants to raid. He's min-maxing up the wazoo. He reads up on his class. He's gemmed, enchanted, and all that. He has maxed out cooking, he has all the right professions. He has his flasks. He has all that stuff. Only problem is, is he's never been in a raiding guild. he's never raided before. He has zero experience. Should he be punished for that?
    Good old " I need an achievement for a raid where that achiement is earned?"

  14. #154
    The Lightbringer judgementofantonidas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    That's good! That's not the norm, seemingly, though. At least on my server (Blackrock-US)

    Will have to continue this later. Phase III should be open today and time to go learn my Blacksmith pattern for my new helm!





    There is no bad RNG only bad L2P

  15. #155
    I have built raiding guilds of varying forms and hardcore-ness since MC/BWL were still current. I think I am on about my 5th raid core built.

    Anyway: it has NEVER been anywhere close to hard as it is right now to recruit decent players. And my server has a "thriving" horde side despite a dead alliance. We still only have like 35 guilds raiding, and despite our large, quick progression when we formed in January ( 16/16, 4/16H from Jan 13-Feb 20)...it has been literally crickets when we spam or make forum posts for recruitment. Over 8 weeks we have recruited like 5 people, and they were all LFR-geared recent rerolls etc.

    It really seems like the playerbase is now split between people looking to raid very hardcore, and people who just want to use LFBads and "see content." It REALLY has not helped that T14 and T15 have been tuned so tightly. I think a lot of good raiders who were on the fence about Normal modes got skullf*#%ed by Elegon and Garalon in guilds that lacked the coordination for those fights and just gave up. Those people have been the only ones we were able to scoop up.

    I am sure it makes sense from a business standpoint for Blizz, but for people trying to run raiding guilds its been brutal. We went from 7 25m good raids to 2. And I would estimate that we have lost 50 10-man raiding guilds since MoP started. Its been a tough landscape.

  16. #156
    LFR is a factor, no question. The convenience of being able to do it at your own leisure and have it be faceroll level difficulty (for the most part) doesn't help when folks are trying to recruit for a raid guild that raids on a set schedule.

    Guild my friend runs recently came back together on WoW after having left for SWTOR and GW2. Cata pretty much destroyed their guild, aside from the few people that pvped and did RBG pugs. Now they get their raiding fix via LFR. They have no desire to bother with organizing a raid team. I'm pulling numbers out of my ass here, but for every guild trying to do scheduled progression raiding, there are probably 10 guilds similar to that of my friend's.

    Right now I'm in a guild of old friends/raiders assembled together over the course of our wow times that enjoy raiding together, so we're able to pursue normal/heroic raiding (mostly normal at this point). Our progress in ToT has been gimped due to having to replace one person this week. We had known he was going to leave several weeks in advance, though, so no bad blood.

    Were this guild to disband or whatever, I would end up joining my friend in the aforementioned "casual/LFR guild" and just do whatever the hell I wanted. I don't see myself going out of the way to join another raiding guild at this point. Said mindset doesn't appear to be applying just to me, though; that said, I definitely do NOT speak for everyone.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by I-Swizzle-I View Post
    Same with Illidan-US, people need to stop using anecdotes as evidence.
    no people need to stop using the highest populated servers in the game as evidence that there are raiders left, illidan is constantly full to locked when you look at it on the server menu so of course theres going to be a ton of raiding guilds

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 03:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by JajaBongs View Post
    Uh, reusing old mechanics? Where in ToT for example? o0
    Some are similar, for sure, but a lot of mechanics are really new
    and to add to what you said, even the first tier of raiding this expac has had pretty much 99% unique fights, blizz got most of the "rehashing" out of their system after the cataclysm failure

  18. #158
    i guess most people have just given up organised raiding for LFR, as it's fairly quick, easy and the rewards aren't too dissimilar from normal modes.

    it's a shame though, LFR just doesn't give the same level of satisfaction when you clear it - but tbh, there hasn't been a huge sense of satisfaction when downing a boss since my guild killed the lich king, but even then, he was the only one we even mildly cheered for - before that it was yogg, before that it was gruul (mostly because thats as far as my guild got in tbc)

    tbh, i dont know what blizz can do to fix it.

    a friend of mine has just taken over my guild in an attempt to recruit and get back up and running again as a raid guild, but tbh, i think he's flogging a dead horse. the players on our server are prety much the same players we've always had, there's not enough fresh blood keen to learn, or enough veterans still interested. it makes me wonder if blizz needs to either open up free server transfers to allow the population to rebalance itself, or they need to work on superservers that can merge servers together (using battle tags to allow for duplicate names on the sme server)

    i think blizz realise they need to bring the playing population back together, not have them spread far and wide across multiple servers. imagine all the english EU servers merged into one super english EU server, it'd make recruiting a lot easier, it'd make finding the right kind of guild a lot easier. tbh i think they are probably working on solutions, but the problem they have is that it needs to go past the finance department and they probably wont be happy about the amount of money blizz stands to lose by making server transfers free - but then when you consider the amount of subs they stand to lose if they dont do something about this rapidly escalating problem, they wont have any money coming in at all.

    free server transfers for all or megaservers need to happen imo.
    <insert witty signature here>

  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Lionspride View Post
    FL wasn't as hard either, i joined a PUG and i had myself not the best raiding gear, and manage to down 6/7 bosses, only ragnaros not because of the lack of time.

    But i ment in general DS idd.
    FL was nerfed by 30% in one go? My guild is not best of raiders and not the best geared but we progress, at a slower rate than most guilds. After the FL nerf, we pretty much got to Rag with relative ease, which surprised us. We were not expecting the nerf to be than significant in one go.

    So if FL did not troubled us, then it was a pretty substantial nerf. Of course there were people who already found it relatively easy before the nerf anyway.

  20. #160
    The Insane Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    I'm not an elite raider. I've never done a heroic. But I do raid, and I've quit.

    Blizz managed to do something I thought was impossible. They made a worse endgame experience than Cata. They completely destroyed the fun of the journey and joy of finishing a goal. Endgame is just farm normals, farm heroics, farm dailies, farm scenarios, farm LFR in that order. Only then do you get into raiding.

    And I say farm because it's also so easy you can afk, bot, or faceroll them.
    You don't create "justice" by destroying. That includes buildings, cars, or the careers of the people you want "justice" for.


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