Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[Firebert]

no, raiding is organzied play, with tactics, guild effort, flasks, food, raid leader, loot rules, updating your status on wowprogress, wiping on a boss for couple of weeks.

That's guild raiding at the very least, and you clearly don't understand what a definition is.

EDIT: Dispensing with the guild part, you have the following:

Organised play: LFR queuing system.
Tactics: Try Elegon LFR with no tactics. Try Tsulong LFR with no tactics.
Effort: Prerequisite of 460/470/480 item level.
Flasks: Not required. LFR is balanced around not having flasks.
Food: Not required, though banquets are often placed by some.
Raid leader: There is one, but he wields less power than a Normal raid leader.
Loot Rules: Unique to LFR to prevent ninjaing.
Updating your status on WoWProgress: Can do it manually with your LFR clears.
Wiping on a boss for a couple of weeks: Garalon pre-nerf, Elegon pre-nerf, probably Horridon (although the post-wipe buff has started to eradicate this).

[Strakha]

I think it's more attrition than anything. Raiding is fun from time to time, but being in a perpetual schedule for a certain amount of hours a week is not fun. Sometimes people don't want to show up (other things to do,etc) and sometimes they just stop caring all together, or new content comes out that they does not make them want to raid with the same enthusiasm.

For instance when I was doing Ulduar and then Trial of the Champion (T9) came out I just did not care anymore and left a group of cool raiders but I was almost over joyed at that prospect given the free time it gave me.

Another thing with LFR now you can see the content and just do PVP or single player activities and you still aren't missing out on much. You won't get the fancy gear, but if you do LFR you don't need it anyways.

Raiding now can be done by basically anyone, at any time, as any role. And that is a lot more flexible and more in line with what people expect from games nowadays. I think the majority of people are perfectly satisfied with just doing LFR when they have a free 1.5 hours or so and then going back to doing whatever they want, without having to depend on 9/24 others to do what they want.

In closing I'd like to say that I do enjoy raiding, I like the challenges, it is just too damned time consuming for me personally. And I like to have a spontaneous schedule going forward while playing WoW and not missing out on content. Thanks LFR!

[Deleted]

Organised play: LFR queuing system.
Tactics: Try Elegon LFR with no tactics. Try Tsulong LFR with no tactics.
Effort: Prerequisite of 460/470/480 item level.
Flasks: Not required. LFR is balanced around not having flasks.
Food: Not required, though banquets are often placed by some.
Raid leader: There is one, but he wields less power than a Normal raid leader.
Loot Rules: Unique to LFR to prevent ninjaing.
Updating your status on WoWProgress: Can do it manually with your LFR clears.
Wiping on a boss for a couple of weeks: Garalon pre-nerf, Elegon pre-nerf, probably Horridon (although the post-wipe buff has started to eradicate this).

you're for real?
ok, so if you think LFR is raiding, then lets be honest, you shouldnt be surprised they don't want you in raiding guilds.

[Firebert]

ok, so if you think LFR is raiding, then lets be honest, you shouldnt be surprised they don't want you in raiding guilds.

Is that a thinly-veiled personal attack on my mental state? Because if it is, I'll happily claim victory in this argument.

[Rinoa]

LFR is per definition raiding, just like normal and heroic mode. They are separate difficulties and not separate things, just like a normal 5-player dungeon is still a 5-player dungeon even though harder versions of said dungeon exist in heroic and challenge modes.

[Deleted]

Is that a thinly-veiled personal attack on my mental state? Because if it is, I'll happily claim victory in this argument.

you wrote it yourself few pages back

Problem is, people see LFR as too easy, and this makes the LFR achievement worthless when you apply to a guild (I know from first-hand experience).

[Jtbrig7390]

you're for real?
ok, so if you think LFR is raiding, then lets be honest, you shouldnt be surprised they don't want you in raiding guilds.

LFR stands for Looking For Raid.

A Raid In world of warcraft is a group that is more then 5 people aka 10/25+ or in vanilla 40man's.

You saying that LFR is not raiding is stupid.

That would be like if someone who raided in Everquest came in here and said WOW raiding is not raiding since there is less then 100/200 people in the raid's "like EQ had"

[Firebert]

you wrote it yourself few pages back

That's a problem with Normal raiding guilds, not with LFR.

I still don't see how that makes me unworthy of a Normal raiding guild.

[Deleted]

LFR stands for Looking For Raid.

A Raid In world of warcraft is a group that is more then 5 people aka 10/25+ or in vanilla 40man's.

You saying that LFR is not raiding is stupid.

That would be like if someone who raided in Everquest came in here and said WOW raiding is not raiding since there is less then 100/200 people in the raid's "like EQ had"

you are arguing over semantics and definitions, but the thing is - nobody cares.
Yes we know it's calles "Raid" but no raider think it actually is.

---------- Post added 2013-03-21 at 12:18 AM ----------

That's a problem with Normal raiding guilds, not with LFR.

I still don't see how that makes me unworthy of a Normal raiding guild.

beacause of standing on this goddamn floor on Elegon when you should gtfo. that kind of people will never make it to real raiding.

[Firebert]

Yes we know it's calles "Raid" but no raider think it actually is.

The odds of at least one Normal or Heroic Raider thinking that LFR is raiding is high, due to the sheer amount of raiders.

The probability of at least one raider thinking that LFR is raiding is 1. I raid LFR, LFR is raiding.

[AeneasBK]

For anecdotal evidence, our raiding team which has struggled at times to field a full 25 players for the raid is now almost able to run a 10 man raid alongside our main 25 progression, our numbers have swelled that much.

So its all gravy for us

[Deleted]

The odds of at least one Normal or Heroic Raider thinking that LFR is raiding is high, due to the sheer amount of raiders.

The probability of at least one raider thinking that LFR is raiding is 1. I raid LFR, LFR is raiding.

ok so you think the truth is what some single guy thinks. Keep on dreaming.

[Firebert]

ok so you think the truth is what some single guy thinks. Keep on dreaming.

You said "no raider thinks that LFR is raiding". All I need to do is find one and I've proven you wrong. Under the definition of raiding (that is, 6+ players in a group and in a zone made for 6+ people) you're wrong, and under your "definition" of raiding there's an incredibly high chance that you're wrong.

[Deleted]

You said "no raider thinks that LFR is raiding". All I need to do is find one and I've proven you wrong. Under the definition of raiding (that is, 6+ players in a group and in a zone made for 6+ people) you're wrong, and under your "definition" of raiding there's an incredibly high chance that you're wrong.

ok whaterver believe in what you want I don't care, but I have small proposition for you.
Go to the raiding subforum and create a poll: "Do you consider LFR as real raiding" (not by a name)

[spectrefax]

Take a look at the last few posts of this thread (the ones before this post).

This is exactly why people prefer LFR over normal raiding. The community is such that it will argue over the definition of a word. Why on earth would I want to put myself in pressure situations with people like that who are pretty much guaranteed to rage on wipes? (Not trying to point out any one in particular, just using as a good example).

This is an absolute farce. The raiding community will accept new people with open arms if they are willing to put in the effort and time to become good at their craft.

Yeeeeaaaah - All the "LFM for MSV Normal must have 522 ilvl + know fights + link achievement" would like to have a word with you. Even on a large community like OpenRaid.us, it's still the same thing. People absolutely do not want to hand-hold and/or show others the ropes. "If you don't have experience, you ain't leeching it from my group" is the general raider mentality. Trying to pass that lie off to people who actually raid just isn't going to work.

[Moistmuffins]

Nemro... Just stop. I think LFR is raiding. I have Tribute to Insanity pre-nerf, I killed Algalon as current content, I have the Plagued and Black Proto-Drake, I saw C'Thun as current content, my guild died at M'uru (sadly), I was in the group that got server first 25man H Halion. This idea that only "bads" think LFR is raiding is bullshit. I don't have the time to set aside a few nights a week anymore to raid with my friends that like to do progression raiding, so instead of holding them back or making excuses I helped find and gear someone up to replace me then went on my way with LFR. Would I do normals/heroics if I still could? Yes. Does that mean I think LFR isn't raiding? No. You're the ignoring the definition and stating your opinion of a raid as a broad generalization of what every raider ever believes. So, again, stop it. It makes you look incredibly silly.

[Firebert]

ok whaterver believe in what you want I don't care, but I have small proposition for you.
Go to the raiding subforum and create a poll: "Do you consider LFR as real raiding" (not by a name)

You can create your own thread if you want to. I don't need to any more, thanks to Moistmuffins:

I think LFR is raiding.

/fistbump

My guild exploded before Cataclysm due to the GM leaving the guild for a better one. Our guild was a feeder guild to a higher one, and as the GM left the entire guild went in a day. I'd still do Normals/Heroics if I could, but I don't have the time, nor do I have access to a guild that is raiding.

[Lord Blackmore]

you are arguing over semantics and definitions, but the thing is - nobody cares.
Yes we know it's calles "Raid" but no raider think it actually is.

Did someone elect you spokesperson for all raiders? As someone with a long history of raiding, LFR is raiding. EZ mode, but raiding.

---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 06:00 PM ----------

ok whaterver believe in what you want I don't care, but I have small proposition for you.
Go to the raiding subforum and create a poll: "Do you consider LFR as real raiding" (not by a name)

Any poll posted on this site is an indication of what people who come to this site and ONLY those people. It has no bearing on what the player base thinks. On top of which, the people who post on the raiding sub forum are likely to be more predisposed to have a negative opinion of LFR.

[Otimus]

you're for real?
ok, so if you think LFR is raiding, then lets be honest, you shouldnt be surprised they don't want you in raiding guilds.

I refer back to my "No true scotsman" reference. This is absurd. You're all "Heh. It's easy. heh. It doesn't count." So snooty and elitist. Basically, what this all boils down to is you using a way with things to treat one group of people like shit because they play on the easy mode. Just admit it, and move on.

---------- Post added 2013-03-21 at 01:10 AM ----------

ok whaterver believe in what you want I don't care, but I have small proposition for you.
Go to the raiding subforum and create a poll: "Do you consider LFR as real raiding" (not by a name)

What does that even prove? That raiders are elitist?

---------- Post added 2013-03-21 at 01:10 AM ----------

Take a look at the last few posts of this thread (the ones before this post).

This is exactly why people prefer LFR over normal raiding. The community is such that it will argue over the definition of a word. Why on earth would I want to put myself in pressure situations with people like that who are pretty much guaranteed to rage on wipes? (Not trying to point out any one in particular, just using as a good example).




Yeeeeaaaah - All the "LFM for MSV Normal must have 522 ilvl + know fights + link achievement" would like to have a word with you. Even on a large community like OpenRaid.us, it's still the same thing. People absolutely do not want to hand-hold and/or show others the ropes. "If you don't have experience, you ain't leeching it from my group" is the general raider mentality. Trying to pass that lie off to people who actually raid just isn't going to work.

and this, exactly, is my point.

[Jtbrig7390]

you are arguing over semantics and definitions, but the thing is - nobody cares.
Yes we know it's calles "Raid" but no raider think it actually is

Before I quit wow I was a raider and seen that LFR is a easy'er form of raiding. So I guess that prove's you wrong.

But please do provide links and prof that lots do not consider LFR as a raid when in FACT it is.