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  1. #561
    Quote Originally Posted by Dekadez View Post
    Raiding is all about teamwork, solving the collective puzzle and gathering the loot reinforcement afterwards.
    Unless you show me a quote from the game supporting this, this is merely your opinion, and therefore, wrong.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  2. #562
    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    The main reason people don't raid is because their guild doesn't or are giving up. My first real break from raiding was in WotLK when my guild at the time decided to stop raiding during the summer (same year as Cataclysm was gonna come out) so I took a break aswell. THen after summer I came back and joined a new guild and started raiding again.

    So basicly as soon as you see you starting to lose people (or you think you are going to lose people) find new ones to replace them ASAP! It is much better to have reserves than it is to not raid at all. Almost all guilds I have been in during Mists of Pandaria have recruited just enough to raid, but almost never have any reserves at all. I wouldn't mind at all to be left out of raiding a bit now and then if it meant we are still raiding on all guild raid nights.


    What you say is very true and the correct way to manage a good guild.

    BUT, OP is saying that they try to do this - and that recently it's as if there are no other raiders to recruit (dwindling population) or there are no recruitment offers from the few guilds he sees that are still raiding. My theory is that it's LFRs fault, there are other theories about the age of the game and whatnot. But I think OP knows how to recruit and keep a guild going.. he is saying there is no one to recruit.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-24 at 10:16 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    Unless you show me a quote from the game supporting this, this is merely your opinion, and therefore, wrong.

    Strange that someone stating something that is their opinion is simply wrong because it is an opinion. I guess no one has ever had a right opinion?

  3. #563
    I think the problem is the number of people who are actually interested in raiding was never to big to begin with. I personally find normal raids insanely boring. I'm not a raider. Thing is, before I was FORCED into raids because there was no other way to advance my character beyond a certain point. I think this might have been the case with a lot of players - they didn't raid because they loved it, they raided because it was the only way to get gear past heroics.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  4. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by slime View Post
    Strange that someone stating something that is their opinion is simply wrong because it is an opinion. I guess no one has ever had a right opinion?
    Not when there's a definition from the people that create raids.

    Thier definition trumps your opinion.
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  5. #565
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    As I stated earlier, LFR raiding is fine with me. Between working 11-12 hours a day, traveling and being married, I don't have time to commit to a normal raiding guild with set times, etc. Jumping into LFR while doing dailies or anything else in between is just fine with me.

  6. #566
    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    The main reason people don't raid is because their guild doesn't or are giving up. My first real break from raiding was in WotLK when my guild at the time decided to stop raiding during the summer (same year as Cataclysm was gonna come out) so I took a break aswell. THen after summer I came back and joined a new guild and started raiding again.

    So basicly as soon as you see you starting to lose people (or you think you are going to lose people) find new ones to replace them ASAP! It is much better to have reserves than it is to not raid at all. Almost all guilds I have been in during Mists of Pandaria have recruited just enough to raid, but almost never have any reserves at all. I wouldn't mind at all to be left out of raiding a bit now and then if it meant we are still raiding on all guild raid nights.
    you sound like exactly the type of player we look for mind set wise. you do not know how tiring it is to lose people who just cannot understand that you do on occasion have to switch up classes in order to move forward and get butt hurt when their favorite class is the one that has to sit out a boss or two.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  7. #567
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    To be honest allot of the problems in this tier come form the fact they switched it up to a full tier of mechanical challenges vs a mix of dps check and mechanical fights.

    Thus instead of having some easier mechanical fights and then being road blocked by a dps / gear check 4-5 bosses in it was 1 dps check boss and BAM mechanical check! The problem it has created form what I can see is there is no longer the 3-4 bosses to farm up gear to overcome the traditional "gear check boss" and many normal / avg groups are being road blocked now with no gear up path. To say go back and do T14 heroics for gear to a normal guild is the equivalent of saying "throw more time at horridon you will get it". If they fail at mechanical fights then they will fail at T14 heroics as the harder part of those fights are the new mechanics and 10% less dmg and hp wont trivialize the mechanics!

    What they should have done to be honest was have a little less mechanical cap for bosses #2 and 3 and then used a traditional wall on 4... did not need to be dps/gear check wall could have been a huge mechanical wall that would have slowly been chipped away with better gear! This would have given "normal" raiders 3 bosses to farm and 1 to work on thus you keep them coming back for more > keep bashing head on the Horridon wall and if you don't like it...you can lfr and wipe to t14 hard modes ...have fun!

    For myself I like the difficulty as it is giving our group a nice challenge. Then again we only raid 4 hours a week but our group has a couple of old timers that use to be server first players that just don't have the time we use to. Thus for us this tier provides just the right amount of difficulty for our time invested to keep us at about 1 progress kill per week... but I can see where it would road block a similar guild time wise that did not have previously "hard core" raiders to buffer the lower amount of time.

    I would not call the 2nd or 3rd boss normal tuned atm ..it's more Hard mode Diet or HM light :P

  8. #568
    Quote Originally Posted by Spl4sh3r View Post
    The main reason people don't raid is because their guild doesn't or are giving up. My first real break from raiding was in WotLK when my guild at the time decided to stop raiding during the summer (same year as Cataclysm was gonna come out) so I took a break aswell. THen after summer I came back and joined a new guild and started raiding again.

    So basicly as soon as you see you starting to lose people (or you think you are going to lose people) find new ones to replace them ASAP! It is much better to have reserves than it is to not raid at all. Almost all guilds I have been in during Mists of Pandaria have recruited just enough to raid, but almost never have any reserves at all. I wouldn't mind at all to be left out of raiding a bit now and then if it meant we are still raiding on all guild raid nights.
    What you are saying is the exact formula that raiding guilds survived on. This is also the reason I started this forum because it is no an option. There used to be such a surplus that you would have some back ups that were fine with only being replacement but those are the same people that are cool with just running lfr. The casuals were a saving grace in the past because they were there to fill in when needed but now they have ran their lfr and are doing 9000 daillies so they can get their valor gear to look better in lfr.

  9. #569
    Deleted
    LFR. Play when I want, get some loot, log off and enjoy life.

  10. #570
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    Well we getting older.Start a job most have wifes and familly.For me every year the time who i spend in WoW for raiding become smaller and smaller mine guild for example was raiding 5 days back in Wrath now we raid 3 days and have half hour cut off from raid time

  11. #571
    ...and where are all the gods?
    Where's the streetwise Hercules to fight the rising odds?
    Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed?
    Late at night I toss and I turn and dream of what I need!

    Anyone else hear that in their head whenever they read the thread title?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  12. #572
    I will say in 5.2 they have picked up the fight mechanics. Like Ji-kin and Durumu. +1 Blizz for new style of fights.

    The game looses its flare, what is great is that no matter how long the hiatus. Blizz will save your toon for you.

  13. #573
    Quote Originally Posted by rym View Post
    Thats nitpicking. It's the same raiding game just at the easy difficulty. And it has to be easy as it isnt an organized raid tier.
    Normal mode WotLK raids were easy. They still required organization, communication and teamwork.

    LFR is the worst parts of random bgs combined with lfd.
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  14. #574
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post

    Again, raiding is:

    A group of people getting together to do something bigger than usual, it feels epic and rewarding.

    Ok so you want to raid but cannot commit the time, if you can't do 2 nights a week then raiding is not for you. Do not drag down the rest of the population. I’ve always saw this as bullshit any way. I’ll see people who say they can’t commit a little bit of time to raiding but then are in LFR on various alts 5 nights a week.

    Raiding should be an option but not anyone’s right to be able to be coddled like a child through content. Anything worth doing should be at least some sort of commitment, but that percentage of people who need instant gratification and “gimme” attitudes really hold back the original intent of what Blizz tried to capture with raiding.

    There will be those that feel the journey and payoff should mean something and those that want it spoon fed to them. There will always be this imbalance but the RIGHT thing to do it obvious. You want to raid then fucking raid, do not turn it into some bullshit of dragging content down to the lowest skill set and/or work ethic. Do not need to cater to the top 10% either but come on...it’s fucking raiding.
    hit the preverbial nail on the head here mate .....

  15. #575
    Quote Originally Posted by brainwashed View Post
    hit the preverbial nail on the head here mate .....
    While I agree with this as a casual....I'd love to raid but I can't fit most raid schedules..... It turns back into keying/gating for most guilds as far as recruiting goes.

    The officer in me says "this is a great recruiting tool"
    The casual raider in me says "meh"

  16. #576
    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    I think the problem is the number of people who are actually interested in raiding was never to big to begin with. I personally find normal raids insanely boring. I'm not a raider. Thing is, before I was FORCED into raids because there was no other way to advance my character beyond a certain point. I think this might have been the case with a lot of players - they didn't raid because they loved it, they raided because it was the only way to get gear past heroics.
    If you do not raid you have no need for gear past heroics.
    There is no Bad RNG just Bad LTP

  17. #577
    This thread is still going o.o.

    Simple fact:

    When WoW launched and for the first 3-4 years it was totally filled with people around ages of 17-25, generally people that arent done with studies, of course there were people like 25-35 that already had their lives settled down.

    Those people grew up..WoW hasnt had any real blood for a few years now, the newest generation is not interested the least about MMO's, its all about MOBA's (LoL mostly) because they are free and dont require any time, and MMO's are generally judged as "Nerdy" even more than before, 8 years ago, even if the genre wasnt that new, it was still "unknown" while RTS and FPS reigned the gaming market (Warcraft 3 and CS).

    Old blood has newly found responsibilities or got bored of the game, the new blood is not enough..There is your raiders missing.

    Old blood is still playing, just not interested in actual raiding anymore..LFR is all we need nowadays and we are happy

    At least the guys i know:

    30 or so guys that i played or raided with over the years.

    4 or so are playing with me right now, we only level alts, gear them up in LFR and try to farm mounts, we cant have a schedule based around "Be online at this times to raid" anymore, we are exhausted.
    5 or so guys bought the game when it launched, played the first 2 months (Game card) and they are waiting for the next expansion.

    The rest 20 mock the 10 of us for still playing/buying the last 2 expansions simply because they are so bored of the game that some are growing to hate it.

    And yes, i do see all 20-30 of them regularly, some work or still go at the same net cafes even after all these years, or the same coffee places and generally, Greek cities arent that big even if we are 1.5-2mil people or so in my city :P

    Now from the other end..All the people i know that already had proper lives like married and with a job when WoW launched, are still playing and raiding 4 times a day clearing heroics and shit and amazes me!. Of course myself i only know like 3 of them which by now they are like 38-40 while they were 30 when WoW launched but hey..They didnt have exams, drunkness and start a family/job to do, they were already past those when WoW launched :P


    TLDR: Raiders grew up, have responsibilities now, most are bored of the game, those that arent just use LFR to watch the raids, there is no new blood to fill all those university student/raiders that grew up.
    Last edited by potis; 2013-03-29 at 04:44 AM.

  18. #578
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    This thread is still going o.o.

    Simple fact:

    When WoW launched and for the first 3-4 years it was totally filled with people around ages of 17-25, generally people that arent done with studies, of course there were people like 25-35 that already had their lives settled down.

    Those people grew up..WoW hasnt had any real blood for a few years now, the newest generation is not interested the least about MMO's, its all about MOBA's (LoL mostly) because they are free and dont require any time, and MMO's are generally judged as "Nerdy" even more than before, 8 years ago, even if the genre wasnt that new, it was still "unknown" while RTS and FPS reigned the gaming market (Warcraft 3 and CS).

    Old blood has newly found responsibilities or got bored of the game, the new blood is not enough..There is your raiders missing.

    Old blood is still playing, just not interested in actual raiding anymore..LFR is all we need nowadays and we are happy

    At least the guys i know:

    30 or so guys that i played or raided with over the years.

    4 or so are playing with me right now, we only level alts, gear them up in LFR and try to farm mounts, we cant have a schedule based around "Be online at this times to raid" anymore, we are exhausted.
    5 or so guys bought the game when it launched, played the first 2 months (Game card) and they are waiting for the next expansion.

    The rest 20 mock the 10 of us for still playing/buying the last 2 expansions simply because they are so bored of the game that some are growing to hate it.

    And yes, i do see all 20-30 of them regularly, some work or still go at the same net cafes even after all these years, or the same coffee places and generally, Greek cities arent that big even if we are 1.5-2mil people or so in my city :P

    Now from the other end..All the people i know that already had proper lives like married and with a job when WoW launched, are still playing and raiding 4 times a day clearing heroics and shit and amazes me!. Of course myself i only know like 3 of them which by now they are like 38-40 while they were 30 when WoW launched but hey..They didnt have exams, drunkness and start a family/job to do, they were already past those when WoW launched :P


    TLDR: Raiders grew up, have responsibilities now, most are bored of the game, those that arent just use LFR to watch the raids, there is no new blood to fill all those university student/raiders that grew up.
    You were right up until you mentioned younger people are not interested in MMO's, and they are viewed as nerdy.

    Not only is this incorrect, but all the analytical data available or ever released from publishers states the opposite. In general, gaming on your PC is viewed as nerdy. Not specific games. 90 percent of young people don't know anything about computers, let alone the games on them.

    League of Legends has more players because it's a game that can run on a toaster, is made so a baby can play it, and is free. Not because all young people are into it, but because all young people are poor.

    World of Warcraft doesn't have new players because the barrier to entry is gigantic. Go pick a brand new server where you know nobody, have no friends. No imagine leveling 1-90 without knowing anything about the game, without knowing about any of the websites. Imagine trying to friend a group of people to play with. You would end up joining one of the 50 guilds that spams you with an invite due to an addon within the first 10 seconds of creating a character. From there you will be completely confused because nobody helps, nobody talks, everyone just trolls. Not to mention you won't know anything about the expansions, you won't know which ones to buy, what order they go in, you will know nothing.

    World of Warcraft is virtually impossible to get into as a new player if you never experienced it before or have people helping you.

    Titan is being designed from the ground up not only to counter this, but to give both casual players and I am sure, hardcore players things to do.

    Theme-park MMO's are also a thing of the past. Most new MMO's coming out are Sandbox, and we have seen Minecraft grow larger than World of Warcraft while being an ugly 100 percent Sandbox adventure game.

    People want to do what they want to do. They don't want to continue down the linear path some random developer wants them to.

    The fact is, WoW is shrinking. It will never die, because WoW has made so much money it could stay alive forever with 100k players. That said, it will continue to shrink every year until most people jump ship and go to another game. When Titan comes out, and when Titan is announced this year, World of Warcraft becomes number #2 at Blizzard. #2 for advertising, #2 for development, #2 for everything.

    A new article just came out, and it's posted both on Reddit and Neogaf, stating PC gaming has up to 1 billion players, and games like D3, Guild Wars 2 and Minecraft helped boost the total players last year to reach 1 billion. Many of them are casuals, the article explains, but at least 250 million are "core gamers".

    What does this tell us? It tells us there is an absolutly gigantic market of PC gamers that have never been touched. There is still a game out there that could pass League of Legends, but nobody has made it yet. It doesn't mean someone is in the middle of making it though.

    To sum it up, MMORPG's are not dying, the genre is not dying, World of Warcraft is dying. 90 percent of servers are empty, the 10 percent that have people, all but 3 are completely unbalanced, so at least one faction is virtually dead. WoW has been out many years, and it's simply time to move on. The genre as a whole, has more players than ever. More and more we see new MMO's come out and actually have sustainable player basis.

    People just need to come to terms with the fact, that in a couple years, World of Warcraft will no longer be a premier MMO. It doesn't mean you can't have fun with it. It doesn't mean there won't be servers that last another 10 years. It just means it will fade away similar to the way EQ has or even Ultima. No matter what industry you look at. From tech to business and the arts, the company/person/technology that is ontop, never stays ontop. Something comes along that is better, and surpasses it. This is what is happening to WoW. The sooner people understand this fact, the better.
    Last edited by Titan; 2013-03-29 at 05:13 AM.

  19. #579
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    Not only is this incorrect, but all the analytical data available or ever released from publishers states the opposite. In general, gaming on your PC is viewed as nerdy. Not specific games. 90 percent of young people don't know anything about computers, let alone the games on them.
    Now this is half false. 90% of young people play, but on mobile phones and to lesser degree on consoles. A gaming PC is a too big of an investment. So they play facebook games and angry birds, and do not particularly view it as nerdy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    World of Warcraft doesn't have new players because the barrier to entry is gigantic.
    Yes, but then, why new MMORPGs can't gather up people as well? Rift has failed to do so (then again, it was probably too niche), SWTOR, GW2 etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    Theme-park MMO's are also a thing of the past. Most new MMO's coming out are Sandbox, and we have seen Minecraft grow larger than World of Warcraft while being an ugly 100 percent Sandbox adventure game.
    You mean all that new stuff that will crash SWTOR-style? Yeah, some of it is sandbox
    Then again, TES doesn't look that sandbox, and neither is GW2, and probably neither is Titan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    The fact is, WoW is shrinking. It will never die, because WoW has made so much money it could stay alive forever with 100k players. That said, it will continue to shrink every year until most people jump ship and go to another game. When Titan comes out, and when Titan is announced this year, World of Warcraft becomes number #2 at Blizzard. #2 for advertising, #2 for development, #2 for everything.
    You simply don't know that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    A new article just came out, and it's posted both on Reddit and Neogaf, stating PC gaming has up to 1 billion players, and games like D3, Guild Wars 2 and Minecraft helped boost the total players last year to reach 1 billion. Many of them are casuals, the article explains, but at least 250 million are "core gamers".
    Yes, reddit is a very reliable source of information. /facedesk

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    What does this tell us? It tells us there is an absolutly gigantic market of PC gamers that have never been touched. There is still a game out there that could pass League of Legends, but nobody has made it yet. It doesn't mean someone is in the middle of making it though.
    Of all those 1 billion PCs, a lot of them can't run something bigger than WC3 or LOL (which is why those games are so popular in Asia).
    So yeah if someone makes a game like this it better run on all those computers, but it probably won't be an MMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    To sum it up, MMORPG's are not dying, the genre is not dying, World of Warcraft is dying. 90 percent of servers are empty, the 10 percent that have people, all but 3 are completely unbalanced, so at least one faction is virtually dead. WoW has been out many years, and it's simply time to move on. The genre as a whole, has more players than ever.
    Okay, now this is just stupid. Look at this graph: http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/TotalSubs.png
    Do you see a dramatic increase in MMO subs? Right, there isn't any. All those new MMOs coming out crash like a piece of crap in the upcoming months (and if unlucky, with the company that made it), and their number don't take off past several 10^5s. If you look at F2P MMOs, the picture will certainly be better, but that business model doesn't take very well in EU (and probably in US either).

    Quote Originally Posted by Titan View Post
    People just need to come to terms with the fact, that in a couple years, World of Warcraft will no longer be a premier MMO.
    http://www.thedailyblink.com/comics/2013-02-08-417.jpg , enough said
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  20. #580
    There have been
    ~63000 raids doing Dragonsoul (and ~53000 clearing it on normal)
    ~42000 raids doing Mogu'shan Vaults
    ~34000 raids doing Heart of Fear
    ~20500 raids doing Terrace of Endless Spring
    ~19000 raids doing Throne of Thunder
    (source: http://www.wowprogress.com/)

    My conclusion. Raiding is in trouble and the number of raiders has been dropping like a stone in this expansion.

    I blame two things.
    For casual players doing damage and healing correctly has become too complex (the gap between a faceroller and a elitist jerks informed good player with same gear is extreme) and the encounters also get too complicated.

    I know, the good players and the hardcore players will now yell "it's not so hard, learn to play" but you can't ignore the numbers and if you would look past your own good raidgroup you would quickly realise that many players have not developed more skill than they had during vanilla WoW. And there the encounters (except Naxxramas) where pretty simple and doing damage and healing was also pretty easy.

    I think the developers listen too much to the very vocal minority of progress oriented skilled players that get bored with 3-button chars while the silent majority is perfectly happy if they only need to press three buttons and can concentrate on the TWO specials the boss is doing. Right now they have to manage 10+ buttons for dmg/heal and pay attention to the 3+ phases and 5+ abilitys of the boss. That's not fun for many people who still think this is a game and not a serious job or competition.
    Last edited by Kryos; 2013-03-29 at 02:02 PM.
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