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  1. #601
    Harsh to say but WoW is really showing its age. It has to rely on a basic holy trinity system for fights designed in an engine inspired by pc games from the 1990's. They are running out of fun things to do that we havent done before. That and the long time investment for raiding is getting all the more dull personally when im all the more concious that each raid tier is just a stop gap grind for the next save the world raid, and the one after that, and the one after that and so on...

    Raidings given me good times but its a dull idea that at this point that requires far more free time investment than anything else in the game and your creative freedom as a player is next to zero because you must adhere to your role and the strat with little to no variance. Thats a bygone system from the 20th century that folks are frankly getting sick of. I know i raid a hell of a lot less purely because its getting old and busted and i know im not the only one.

  2. #602
    My problem with raiding at the moment is that Throne of Thunder is the worst raid I have ever set foot in. I have absolutly hated most of the bosses so far. They are way to complex combined with way to high healing and DPS requirements, the music is terrible and the whole thing is 12 bosses in one line. I'm usually not the one to complain about linear stuff since I actually like some linearity, but 12 in a row in the same instance is just way to much. Durumu has already broken any will I have to even try him and I have wiped only about 10 times on him now.

    I liked Jin'rohk and Megaera but other then those two I can't really see myself liking the bosses in this tier. Obviously haven't experienced everything yet but from videos and such I am not optimistic.

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Yeah..and then there are scenarios who do away with the holy trinity and people come in and piss on the idea. Then there is game like GW 2 who does away with the holy trinity system..and did it succeed or revolutionise the genre?

    Oh yeah..and I bolded a part for you that counts. At the end of the day, if the old mama of a a gme that apparently shows its age is still holding off all new contender, what does that tell us about all the other games?

    So..let us hear how creative you are. If the holy trinity is outdated and raids are outdated and there are no new ideas...what would you have of an MMO? At the end of the day it is a MMO in a fantasy world. How much can you revolutionize that genre? It like "Oh wait..let us make a run and jump where you don't run or jump"?
    Well thats the trouble, theres still no viable replacement. Otherwise blizzard would have jumped on it already.

  4. #604
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by freighttrain View Post
    Pure assumption on your part. We know for a fact that the majority of all the sub losses since Cata have been in the East specifically China with banned accounts, players leaving for D3, and people quitting mainly due to their silly time card pay structure. All of the data I have seen shows stable NA/EU accounts where most of the raiders reside.
    Please show me where this data is.

    Its purely speculation which global area all of the 3million who left the game come from. Blizzard has not ever (and probably never will) release the exact data of where all of their subs r from. Asia and China do not even use a subscription system, theyve always used gaming timecards, and consequently Blizzard has always 'guessed' the amount of Asian subs. This is clearly indicated within their conference call data if u actually bother to read it.

    Ru seriously telling me that all of those empty and half dead realms in US and EU r imaginary?

    U will find that a much larger amount of US and EU players (and consequently experienced raiders) have left the game than u think.

  5. #605
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    If you do not raid you have no need for gear past heroics.
    No. Freaking no. The point of the PvE end of this game is to progress your character. Regardless of if you do raids or not. It's why WotLK was so popular. People were able to gear their characters without ever stepping foot inside a raid. And even then raids were made more accessible than ever. Character progression through gearing was exceptionally steady, you would practically be getting at least one new piece of confirmed loot every few days. Gear upgrades were easy though time-consuming to come by.

    THAT'S why LFR has loot. Because at it's core this game is still an RPG and RPG's entail improving your character.

    The only place where this RPG ideal doesn't take hold is in PvP where "improving your character" comes in direct conflict to "improving yourself as a player compared to others".
    Quote Originally Posted by High Overlord Saurfang
    "I am he who watches they. I am the fist of retribution. That which does quell the recalcitrant. Dare you defy the Warchief? Dare you face my merciless judgement?"
    i7-6700 @2.8GHz | Nvidia GTX 960M | 16GB DDR4-2400MHz | 1 TB Toshiba SSD| Dell XPS 15

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Flaks View Post
    No. Freaking no. The point of the PvE end of this game is to progress your character. Regardless of if you do raids or not. It's why WotLK was so popular. People were able to gear their characters without ever stepping foot inside a raid. And even then raids were made more accessible than ever. Character progression through gearing was exceptionally steady, you would practically be getting at least one new piece of confirmed loot every few days. Gear upgrades were easy though time-consuming to come by.

    THAT'S why LFR has loot. Because at it's core this game is still an RPG and RPG's entail improving your character.

    The only place where this RPG ideal doesn't take hold is in PvP where "improving your character" comes in direct conflict to "improving yourself as a player compared to others".
    You'd be surprised how many times this has to be repeated, and how many times people simply don't get it. Without character progression, people would be leaving the game in droves. It's part of WHY so many left during Cata (Nothing to do, means not progressing their characters). Character progression is just another form of leveling, and it's the carrot on the stick that keeps this game going for people, and it's why other games often fail because they have little to do at the end.

  7. #607
    age of the game? when i came back for a bit after a break the best guilds on my server were run by children who cared more about recent raiding history than tbc history(imo tbc produced the best raiders and was always what we based our questions off when i used to quiz applicants)

    10s being equal to 25 mans even though the skill level has always been dramatically imbalanced. That change alone broke many 25 man guilds up into their 'best' 10 players who quit out of boredom id suppose.

    Pvp being more imbalance than ever with each patch change hurting more than helping

    world of dailycraft

    game is terribly unfriendly to alts

    idk could go on and on

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    My problem with raiding at the moment is that Throne of Thunder is the worst raid I have ever set foot in. I have absolutly hated most of the bosses so far. They are way to complex combined with way to high healing and DPS requirements, the music is terrible and the whole thing is 12 bosses in one line. I'm usually not the one to complain about linear stuff since I actually like some linearity, but 12 in a row in the same instance is just way to much. Durumu has already broken any will I have to even try him and I have wiped only about 10 times on him now.

    I liked Jin'rohk and Megaera but other then those two I can't really see myself liking the bosses in this tier. Obviously haven't experienced everything yet but from videos and such I am not optimistic.
    We took 50 wipes on Durumu, but the kill was 100% worth it. 10 wipes isn't that many.

  9. #609
    They probably all died of old age.

  10. #610
    The 3 main reasons for less people raiding normal modes:

    1) You can get just as good gear from world bosses and VP. Sure, you'll not get a good weapon , but then it was RNG in normal mode anyway. You can still "see the raid" in LFR, and no longer need to put up with scheduled raid times. This means those "casuals" that normal mode guilds used to fill empty spots in their rosters are no longer available. This also stops you being able to PUG people in /2 as they're all in LFR or doing their daily 5 man. This stops raids from happening as you can't fill that last spot.

    2) The MoP raids have all had serious issues where a typical normal mode guild had to basically out-gear the raid before making any kind of progress. In particular, DPS requirements Garalon and Elegon were serious problems for many guilds, and forced quite a large number to stop raiding. (Sha having a dps requirment is less of an issue as it's the final boss, but anyway...)

    3) Then these normal mode guilds - many of whom never cleared ToES pre-nerf due to DPS requirements being too high - find the 2nd boss into ToT also has highly unforgiving DPS requirements (on the adds). The problem is, that most of the guilds that killed this boss already had killed heroic TOES bosses, and upgraded their gear. For normal mode guilds, this is a problem - they don't have that gear, and the upgrade guy is gone anyway. And so they wipe, and wipe, and wipe some more.

    Now, eventually, Valor and LFR gear will fix this - but this will take several weeks, during which time they'll lose raiders who can't be bothered to do normal mode anymore because of points 1 and 3, and won't be able to replace easily - if they do, the replacement is going to be even worse geared, and so they end up being stuck at point 3. What's needed is 3 or 4 bosses at the start of each raid that DONT HAVE STUPID GEAR REQUIREMENTS. As it stands these just aren't there, and that's what's killing normal mode raiding. Part of the reason WotLK had some many people start raiding was Naxx didn't require super-high gear levels, and could be used to gear up for Uld, and Uld's first boss certainly wasn't a gear check either. You had to get to the keepers before worrying about gear / DPS. That's where normal mode raiding should be - by all means, tune the end bosses to require gear from earlier ones. Problems occur when it's the early bosses that are tuned too high.


    TLDR: Having a high DPS / gear requirement on the last boss of a raid is fine. Having one on the 2nd or 3rd boss is just stupid, as it means you can only gear up from 1 or 2 bosses, and need to outgear the encounter using Valor gear. This kills guilds and is stupid design.
    Last edited by Calaba; 2013-04-08 at 02:46 AM.

  11. #611
    We only have 8000 US raiding guilds left.
    This is down from 28000 guilds in Cata.
    QQ
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven?

  12. #612
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Galaddriel View Post
    We only have 8000 US raiding guilds left.
    This is down from 28000 guilds in Cata.
    QQ
    And how many were there at the end of Wrath?

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Endemonadia View Post
    And how many were there at the end of Wrath?
    38000
    Jesus
    Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven?

  14. #614
    My personal reasons for stepping away from solid raiding since T7:

    #1: Busy work schedule and stressful job. With my current work schedule, I was rushing home after work, eating dinner in front of the computer while we cleared trash, then raiding, going immediately to bed, and waking up for work tired. Not sustainable long-term.

    #2: Raiding commitments outside the 12 hr/week raid schedule. I hated feeling forced to cap valour to upgrade my items, farm food everyday, farm mats, you name it. With the introduction of so many tedious things to do for an edge, WoW began feeling like a second job for the first time since I started playing at the end of BC. With my busy work schedule and limited free time, feeling forced to spend most of it in WoW becomes loathsome. People whine about gear and items being spoonfed to people but also keep in mind that not everyone enjoys or even has the time to grind their eyeballs out for everything. If I wanted that I'd play an asian MMO and spend weeks grinding some stupid item to create bunny ears or something (Lineage 2???).

    #3: Most of my friends have quit WoW by this point. I had to move my main from my old (now dead) server to a new one just to find enough people to play with. Raiding isn't as fun without friends.

    #4: Raiding isn't as fun as it used to be. I'm beginning to grow bored of raiding and WoW in general. Sure, Blizzard has added new features which are somewhat interesting but overall the game is feeling very, very dated. Once WoW isn't fun anymore, it's not important. Gear isn't important anymore and the excitement of winning new loot diminishes. I feel less motivated to maximize my character. It's a vicious cycle of one aspect losing importance feeding the feeling of "Why am I playing and caring about this game anymore?"

    #5 Misc annoyances. Stats are inflated to the point of ridiculousness. One piece of gear can mean a ridiculous jump in DPS due to inflated stats. Bonus coin rolls, world boss luck, etc takes away from the feeling of earning gear through the blood, sweat, and tears of commitment to raiding. Why should I bother showing up and dealing with the headaches of pushing through progression when some skill-less SOB gets lucky and wins a ridiculous amount of gear from world bosses? Demoralizing to say the least.


    What I liked about raiding in times past:

    Pushing through progression with friends and a sense of teamwork. Obtaining the vast majority of gear from dedicated raiding, with personal supplementation through a few pieces available with points. Feeling some presige and glory at having earned my gear because I played exceptionally and showed loyalty to the raid group, not because I flipped a coin and loot fell out of the sky. Challenging, original bosses and interesting environments.
    Last edited by Chisato; 2013-04-08 at 03:34 AM.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by Noorri View Post
    My problem with raiding at the moment is that Throne of Thunder is the worst raid I have ever set foot in. I have absolutly hated most of the bosses so far. They are way to complex combined with way to high healing and DPS requirements, the music is terrible and the whole thing is 12 bosses in one line. I'm usually not the one to complain about linear stuff since I actually like some linearity, but 12 in a row in the same instance is just way to much. Durumu has already broken any will I have to even try him and I have wiped only about 10 times on him now.

    I liked Jin'rohk and Megaera but other then those two I can't really see myself liking the bosses in this tier. Obviously haven't experienced everything yet but from videos and such I am not optimistic.
    With the popularity of DBM and even side addons like Sha Assist, Blizzard is now having to create more complex encounters and encounters where certain abilities do not trigger DBM. For the truest hardcore raider, this is fine, but the majority of the game is not hardcore raiders.

    On the other hand, there have always been DPS and healing checks on almost every encounter dating back to Ragnaros 1.0, so saying that the high requirement is a new problem really isn't true. I would say though that the mechanics have become more diverse and harder to react to. Such as taking 200k (~40% of your health) a tick if you fail to see a poison cloud on Horridon.

    As for the actual topic, we have gone through 6 tanks this expansion now because they are just burnt out. Oddly enough, our core roster is basically the same so we're still progressing through TOT, but much slower than we anticipated. I think one of the worst things this expansion is the linear style of bosses, which I made another topic about this on. I really feel like if they eased up and allowed raiders to choose progression paths more, there would be a better overall feeling when raiding. Like if a guild wanted to kill Ji-Kun then come back to Horridon in the same week.

    The overall paradigm has shifted in WoW due to many many changes over the years from Server Transfers, to Boss guides, to WoWProgress, to LFR and on. Players expect to kill a boss within 20-40 wipes, and if they don't they're quitting or moving to another guild. The overall mentality of the game has shifted so far from what it was in V/BC.

    Gear inflation has caused bosses to only be a challenge for a week, and then afterwards become an extreme joke. Lei shen the first week was actually hard when your raid was 505-510, but now when everyone is 522, you can afk or fuck around the entire time. We started this expansion in 463, and by week three we were in 502 or better. This has basically caused an overall feeling where if you don't have a certain item level, you can't beat a boss.
    Last edited by Libertarian; 2013-04-08 at 03:40 AM.

  16. #616
    Blizzard's Sense of Community consists of 10 people. So they pushed everyone to ten man raiding...

  17. #617
    Quote Originally Posted by Chisato View Post
    #4: Raiding isn't as fun as it used to be. I'm beginning to grow bored of raiding and WoW in general. Sure, Blizzard has added new features which are somewhat interesting but overall the game is feeling very, very dated. Once WoW isn't fun anymore, it's not important. Gear isn't important anymore and the excitement of winning new loot diminishes. I feel less motivated to maximize my character. It's a vicious cycle of one aspect losing importance feeding the feeling of "Why am I playing and caring about this game anymore?"
    I'm going to let you in on a secret. Raiding was never fun. We just did it for the loot. I'm not speaking for all raiders, but I'm sure a lot of people would agree. Raiding was a chore. Not boss fights, but all the bullshit around them - waiting for everyone to show up, waiting for ready, waiting for strat explanation, waiting for loot distribution, waiting, waiting, waiting... I swear, for every 10 minutes I spent actually PLAYING during raids, I spent 30 waiting for something.
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by judgementofantonidas View Post
    If you do not raid you have no need for gear past heroics.
    This is terrible logic. WoW is a standard gear treadmill MMO. It doesn't matter if John is raiding, PvPing or just doing nothing but dailies. If his time investment isn't directly rewarding him with bigger crits and harder hits, he's going to quit.

    The moment he is basically told that he needs to stop doing what he enjoys, and learn to like raiding or PvP, or else his character is done progressing in power, he will walk right out that door and not come back.

  19. #619
    I'm guessing (based on having friends in social/casual raiding guilds) that a huge majority of players now just do lfr, close irl friend lead a 25 casual guild sincefirelands and even with a 40+ roster they dont have people for 25man raids.
    Don't think there's enough in the game that maked casuals raid normal mode/LFR does what they want for them. One can argue that LFR killed casual raiding guilds which is why the numbers have gone to hell, and vefore you ask, LFR is not raiding.

  20. #620
    Quote Originally Posted by Huntingbear_grimbatol View Post
    I'm guessing (based on having friends in social/casual raiding guilds) that a huge majority of players now just do lfr, close irl friend lead a 25 casual guild sincefirelands and even with a 40+ roster they dont have people for 25man raids.
    Don't think there's enough in the game that maked casuals raid normal mode/LFR does what they want for them. One can argue that LFR killed casual raiding guilds which is why the numbers have gone to hell, and vefore you ask, LFR is not raiding.
    I can't speak for everyone but I can at least convey the feelings of some of the non-hardcore players and friends I've played with who quit in recent times.

    Many echoed exactly what I saw posted a page or 2 earlier in this thread, that class and boss mechanics just got too complex for their taste. For a guy from Blood Legion this is basic, their easy to grasp, but for many players it just isn't. When you tie the complexity of maximizing a class together with the sheer number of bosses with strict dps requirements, and for them every boss starts being the epitome of unfun.

    The real issue is that this can't really be fixed, this is the result of the games popularity causing a massive jump in resources relating to maximizing your gameplay. As an example, look at the earlier Ragnaros video in this thread from a hunters perspective. Simply put, the fight is a joke by today's standards, yet it was still hard back then. For much of early vanilla, (before AQ and Naxx kicked the raiding standard up a few notches) most classes could get away with slamming their fist in the general vicinity of their key binds and do fine dps and meet most of those boss fight dps requirements (again, pre-AQ and Naxx), but now, WoW has so many sites with detailed class explanations, boss starts, ect. That it raised the standard expected of everyone. While many players may still play WoW by basically mashing their buttons, even the easiest normal mode fights are designed around you knowing an optimal rotation, knowing your stat priorities, ect.

    WoW can no longer have the simple as hell boss mechanics that early vanilla had while still maintaining challenge due to the expected requirements of class expertise due to resources like icy-veins, simculationcraft. Elitistjerks, ect. And as that expected requirement continues to go up, the player, maybe even a majority, just don't want or can't handle the complexity, so they either retreat to LFR for its much lower requirements, or just quit all together.

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