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  1. #1121
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Controversial opinion here:

    If you are looking for a challenge, why in the ever loving hell are you playing an MMO? Mechanically, and systemically, it's not a very challenging genre. Almost ALL of it is organizational, knowing what to do, when to do it, and being able to hit the right buttons. The skill cap, relative to other things, is very low.

    You want a challenge? Go play some oldschool NES games, Ninja Gaiden, Dark Souls, or what not. Not something who's "challenge" is entirely dependent on other people "Knowing" what to do.
    Controversial opinion here:

    If you are looking for a challenge, why in the ever loving hell are you playing a game? Mechanically, and systemically, it's not a very challenging. Almost ALL of it is organizational, knowing what to do, when to do it, and being able to hit the right buttons. The skill cap, relative to other things, is very low.

    Fixed it for you.

  2. #1122
    Quote Originally Posted by Otiswhitaker View Post
    Controversial opinion here:

    If you are looking for a challenge, why in the ever loving hell are you playing an MMO? Mechanically, and systemically, it's not a very challenging genre. Almost ALL of it is organizational, knowing what to do, when to do it, and being able to hit the right buttons. The skill cap, relative to other things, is very low.

    You want a challenge? Go play some oldschool NES games, Ninja Gaiden, Dark Souls, or what not. Not something who's "challenge" is entirely dependent on other people "Knowing" what to do.
    I'm confused... So knowing what to do, pushing the right buttons, and knowing when to push the right buttons isn't skillful? You know that you just described every encounter in Dark Souls right? Just because it's a hot key rpg over an action rpg doesn't mean it requires less skill. If anything it's a lot more to manage with the abundance of spells, skills, and CDs on top of needing to communicate with your raid.

    Anyway, Blizz tends to over tune encounters initially and then nerf them later if too many players are struggling. They just nerfed a lot of the encounters (especially on 10m) and the fact players have been getting better gear over the last month or so should help too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Boubouille View Post
    You're full of shit honey.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler
    You should have no expectations for the next expansion IMO...

  3. #1123

    I can't speak for other guilds on my server but I can.....

    for my guild. We were set to start raiding just after 5.2 dropped. Folks had finally geared up enough to at least be viable against the 1st 2 or 3 bosses in MSV. Then our MT went AWOL. Almost immediately after Christmas those that we had recruited to fill out missing pieces left for other guilds. None of us who were set at 5.2 have completed a raid.

    With my guild we can't get people to stick around long enough to learn how to work together. Newcomers get frustrated that they're not making progress (or want to be carried), old timers are frustrated that we can't keep anyone around. So most of us work on something other than current content, except via LFR. The oldtimers still in the guild are overgeared for the 5.0 raids, but can't get make progress.

    So where have the raiders gone? Dunno really, except maybe doing old content for achievements and laughs, doing so with 6 or so people at any given time.



    Quote Originally Posted by Eisenstein View Post
    At the height of Cata my guild had 4 raid groups, a Saturday alt run and a Sunday/Monday RBG team. Now we are having trouble fielding teams on our evening and late night groups. When MoP dropped we had a wealth of players that were frothing at the mouth for a chance to raid. Literally 40+ players on everyday. We figured Fielding 1 team wouldn't be an issue but fielding 3 teams might be difficult. With in the first 3 months we were one of many guilds endlessly spamming trade to find 1 more dps or 1 more healer for raid. I have seen some of the other guilds that we used to compete with going through the same issues.

    My main reasoning in posting this is I'd like to know from players, guilds and realms outside of my own if the number of actual people raiding is way down. I wish there was a way to see how many players are actively participating in non-lfr raids on a realm.

    Is the only option left to leave mid to low pop realms all together. Maybe join the masses on the high pop realms along with the que time to play?

  4. #1124
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    I'm confused... So knowing what to do, pushing the right buttons, and knowing when to push the right buttons isn't skillful? You know that you just described every encounter in Dark Souls right? Just because it's a hot key rpg over an action rpg doesn't mean it requires less skill. If anything it's a lot more to manage with the abundance of spells, skills, and CDs on top of needing to communicate with your raid.

    Anyway, Blizz tends to over tune encounters initially and then nerf them later if too many players are struggling. They just nerfed a lot of the encounters (especially on 10m) and the fact players have been getting better gear over the last month or so should help too.
    I didn't say it wasn't skillful. I'm just saying... I mean, the game doesn't even have AI.

  5. #1125
    Quote Originally Posted by Fagatronics View Post
    I'm confused... So knowing what to do, pushing the right buttons, and knowing when to push the right buttons isn't skillful?
    Depends on your definition of "challenge". What you're describing isn't really so much as "beating a challenge" as it is more likely "memory retainment/hand rotation crank". Basically trying to fit the right peg into the right hole. if it doesn't fit the slot, it doesn't go in. OOops! If you don't do the boss right, you die. Ooops!

    A "challenge" is (...I hate to say this...) more like PVP, where you have to think ON THE FLY for any random occurrence and situation. The majority of raid bosses are hardly random. The only random element is knowing basically where the fire is and getting out, aside from that - the boss is pretty-much scripted.

    I mean, have you ever played the game "Dragon's Lair"? Is that really "skillful" to know when to hit the left or right button at the exact moment? Or is it far more "learning via binary attrition" to be able to do that?

    What I find skillful are the people who do INSANE things, like flying two planes in a FPS/vehicle combat game, bailing out at mid-flight onto each other's opposite plane, getting back into the cockpits and continue flying.

  6. #1126
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Depends on your definition of "challenge". What you're describing isn't really so much as "beating a challenge" as it is more likely "memory retainment/hand rotation crank". Basically trying to fit the right peg into the right hole. if it doesn't fit the slot, it doesn't go in. OOops! If you don't do the boss right, you die. Ooops!

    A "challenge" is (...I hate to say this...) more like PVP, where you have to think ON THE FLY for any random occurrence and situation. The majority of raid bosses are hardly random. The only random element is knowing basically where the fire is and getting out, aside from that - the boss is pretty-much scripted.

    I mean, have you ever played the game "Dragon's Lair"? Is that really "skillful" to know when to hit the left or right button at the exact moment? Or is it far more "learning via binary attrition" to be able to do that?

    What I find skillful are the people who do INSANE things, like flying two planes in a FPS/vehicle combat game, bailing out at mid-flight onto each other's opposite plane, getting back into the cockpits and continue flying.
    THeirs a video of a guy who does that in BF3 or something like that. I lawled when I saw it. He's in a dog fight getting chased, ejects, pulls out a bazooka, kills the plane chasing him then get's back in his jet. Youtube Battlefield 3 rendezook
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  7. #1127
    Anyway, Blizz tends to over tune encounters initially and then nerf them later if too many players are struggling. They just nerfed a lot of the encounters (especially on 10m) and the fact players have been getting better gear over the last month or so should help too.
    While they like to say this, they aren't paying enough attention. Normal Elegon was holding back 25% of all raiders for months before they finally nerfed him. This is their biggest sin so far in MoP but I think they would do good with nerfing quite alot more. I really hope we will see a progressive nerf in ToT so that there will be any normal mode raiders left when 5.4 hits. With the current attrition rate there will be something like 11000-12000 guilds that kill the first boss in T16 on normal after 6 weeks if the attrition rate continues. And only god knows what will happen in the next expansion with normal mode raiding.

  8. #1128
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    THeirs a video of a guy who does that in BF3 or something like that. I lawled when I saw it. He's in a dog fight getting chased, ejects, pulls out a bazooka, kills the plane chasing him then get's back in his jet. Youtube Battlefield 3 rendezook
    The jet stunts you can see people do in BF2 and BF3 are absolutely insane. I had a friend who'd do aerial repairs of his planes. Crazy, crazy stuff.

  9. #1129
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    This, again, might have less to do with business model and more with tech limitations. New games have the luxury of building on new infrastructure right away or utilize new technology right away. Blizzard has to go through hoops to seamlessly update 8 year old tech without breaking anything. Server tech is one major area WoW is starting to fall behind on, I'm pretty sure they aren't keeping it because they love how it works.
    I couldn't agree more, yet they keep it despite the fact it's seemingly poor for business.

    I'm sure they either continue to push their wares based off of either the fact that they don't trust their player-base enough to stick with them (i.e. if they were to transition into what would essentially be "WoW 2" or other drastic overhauls) hence what seems like poor business decisions to us, but fiscally responsible to those who would see us as a fickle bunch.. Or, they believe us to just be a dumb infatuated mass, that despite whatever piss poor decisions they do make, we'll still be here.

    Either or, at this point really.

  10. #1130
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    Weird, because many of them seem to have fixed their logistical problem, since the 13k empress guild kills jumped to 18k with just a 10% nerf...

    And i am guessing that number will go up a lot more with the Garalon enrage timer nerf.

    So no, i'm sorry, its not about logistics, its about difficulty.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 09:29 AM ----------



    You would be wrong too. Again, the number increased by 50% (13k to 18k) with just a 10% nerf, so it isnt about logistics or about people stop trying to go for LFR.

    People tried, and failed, and kept trying, and kept failing, because HoF N was DAMMED HARD for normal players.

    Oooooh, lets do some maths.


    WoWprogress tracks 700,000 guilds.

    The Garalon enrage timer nerf, allowed another 5,000 guilds to beat it.

    This means that a decrease in difficulty affected 0.7% of guilds, whilst the rest didnt complete it due to................................logistics?


    So yea, totally, decreasing the difficulty level of bosses makes virtually no difference at all to how many guilds will eventually beat it.

  11. #1131
    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas;20797248A
    "challenge" is (...I hate to say this...) more like PVP, where you have to think ON THE FLY for any random occurrence and situation. The majority of raid bosses are hardly random. The only random element is knowing basically where the fire is and getting out, aside from that - the boss is pretty-much scripted.
    Well, you'll be sorry to hear that all the challenge in modern pvp in wow left is how to not die in boredom while being CC-chained.
    OT: I'm glad to see some nerfs, especially to Horridon. Making second boss in tier this much absurdly overtuned is... well, absurd.

  12. #1132
    Quote Originally Posted by MacD123 View Post
    Oooooh, lets do some maths.


    WoWprogress tracks 700,000 guilds.

    The Garalon enrage timer nerf, allowed another 5,000 guilds to beat it.

    This means that a decrease in difficulty affected 0.7% of guilds, whilst the rest didnt complete it due to................................logistics?


    So yea, totally, decreasing the difficulty level of bosses makes virtually no difference at all to how many guilds will eventually beat it.

    Of those 700k guilds, only 40k killled Stone Guards normal, the rest dont raid and are therefore irelevant for the discussion.

    13k killed empress before 5.2. 18k killed empress as for today. Around 50% more, means a lot of people was trying to kill the bosses and were failing, and the fact that only 13k guilds have killed was not due to people not trying. The nerf was needed a long time ago (it was needed when it was current).

    Now, if you want to take the 660k guilds that dont even try to do the content because you have no real arguments, then i feel sorry for you.

  13. #1133
    If you count LFR raidings probably bigger than it's ever been.

  14. #1134
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    Wiping over and over is (for most people) dull, repetitive shit that is happening at the same time as they are supposed to be having fun. For some other people wiping over and over is the prelude to a good feeling when the boss finally dies.
    First of all me having a different opinion and not agreeing with you is not the same as me not accepting your view. And second of all you need to read my response because my calling something baffling had nothing to do with wiping over and over. If you re-read it you would see that I was calling the behavior of a dps leaving a group in LFR after one wipe baffling. It is baffling because they spent 45-60 mins in the queue just to give up after one wipe.

    Wiping, and failure at an encounter is par for the course in raiding. There should be no reason to give up just because you wipe a lot if you are interested in raiding. The thing is that not everyone that raids or wants to raid is an actual raider. That is why LFR was created to allow for those that don't like to wipe but still want to raid have a chance at raiding.

    Normal modes aren't even that hard. While garalon was a little tight on the enrage most guilds were not stuck on the enrage timer. Even in LFR people still fail at staying out from under the boss, even when it gives you a clear line on the screen to avoid. A lot of people could get carried when there were less mechanics and more "tank and spank" aspects to fights. But WoW has turned away from the tank and spank and towards the mechanic "action" game play. And that is where most people get a wake up call to their "actual" ability. Some learn from it and become better, some kill the guild because the realm doesn't have any recruits, and some just give up or find a guild of like minded people.

    ---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 09:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I'd love to clear LFR. When will I be able to clear it? Most of the bosses for LFR haven't been available for the past month and in fact if I do lfr then I basically rob myself of the rep from the first couple of bosses
    Throne of thunder has been out for only a little over a month. The last wing of LFR opens next week. You've had 4 weeks for the first wing, 3 weeks for the second, and 2 weeks for the third. I also don't think you understand how the Shado-pan Assault reputation works if you think you are missing out on reputation by killing LFR bosses. It doesn't matter what difficulty you kill a boss in you get the same reputation once per week per boss across any difficulty. So you don't miss out on any reputation because you won't be gaining extra reputation by killing it with your normal mode group versus LFR.

    The Shado-pan Assault reputation gear isn't really designed for people to use to gear up. It is more to fill in gaps when the gear you need doesn't drop. Just because you can clear throne of thunder every week doesn't mean that all 10 or 25 people in the raid will get the gear they need. That is what Valor is for and that is the system that Blizzard is trying to move Valor back towards. It is supposed to be the backup plan and not the main plan.

    Besides you can easily get friendly which opens up 4 gear slots for you to purchase with valor for a combined total of 5500 valor points. That is five weeks of patch 5.2 or 2 weeks if you entered the patch already at the valor cap. You can potentially hit friendly in one night since you can farm trash up to friendly minus 1 reputation and turn friendly with the first boss kill. Jin'rokh is an easy boss on normal though it could take you two weeks into 5.2 if you just raid LFR.

    If you started 5.2 at 0 valor you just be able to afford those 4 items since this is the sixth week since the patch was released. Hardly terrible and hardly screwing those that need it most. You don't need everything right away.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  15. #1135
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by sarahfireworks View Post
    I dunno, there lots of challenging things in MMOs, both in WoW and in other games out there. Granted there's a lot of content in WoW and other games that doesn't push most people, but there are challenges to be found if you look for them.
    I think otiswhitakers point was that old school games challenge is that u 'work it all out yourself', the reason MMO is not challenging is that all u need to do is go on the internet and see how everyone else has overcome the challenge and copy them... and thats not very challenging at all. Anything u come across in Wow u just look up on the interent aznd problem solved, there is VERY LITTLE u actually work out yourself. All u do is try and try again with the methods u have read about on the interent and try and try again until u work out how to use your addons which help u to simplify the challenge.

    If Wow finally released a boss that nobody got to playtest and that nobody knows anything about, also force players to have no use of addons (warning for incoming boss abilities etc.) then we will truly have a challenge. Thats a gamers challenge right there.

    I tend to agree with Otis tho, all experienced gamers who have played every major game ever released can see Wow (and MMOs in general) are very low on the challenge scale. This is just the way it is among true gamers.
    Last edited by mmoc978ad45763; 2013-04-12 at 01:25 AM.

  16. #1136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crashdummy View Post
    What we are saying is that normal skilled people should be able to clear a tier in 5 months with item upgrades nerfing it. This wasnt true in T14 and it wasnt going to be true in t15. 5 months for a tier is not equal to not wipe a single time.
    If you couldn't clear tier 14 after 5 months then you are not a normal mode raider. The problem is that normal skilled people are not who you are talking about because normal skilled people certainly could clear tier 14.
    "Man is his own star. His acts are his angels, good or ill, While his fatal shadows walk silently beside him."-Rhyme of the Primeval Paradine AFC 54
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  17. #1137
    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    If you couldn't clear tier 14 after 5 months then you are not a normal mode raider. The problem is that normal skilled people are not who you are talking about because normal skilled people certainly could clear tier 14.
    Normal mode should be within 1 standard deviation of the median. Don't tell me 66% of guilds who managed to down stone guards also managed to down Sha.

  18. #1138
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhorle View Post
    Throne of thunder has been out for only a little over a month. The last wing of LFR opens next week. You've had 4 weeks for the first wing, 3 weeks for the second, and 2 weeks for the third. I also don't think you understand how the Shado-pan Assault reputation works if you think you are missing out on reputation by killing LFR bosses. It doesn't matter what difficulty you kill a boss in you get the same reputation once per week per boss across any difficulty. So you don't miss out on any reputation because you won't be gaining extra reputation by killing it with your normal mode group versus LFR.

    The Shado-pan Assault reputation gear isn't really designed for people to use to gear up. It is more to fill in gaps when the gear you need doesn't drop. Just because you can clear throne of thunder every week doesn't mean that all 10 or 25 people in the raid will get the gear they need. That is what Valor is for and that is the system that Blizzard is trying to move Valor back towards. It is supposed to be the backup plan and not the main plan.

    Besides you can easily get friendly which opens up 4 gear slots for you to purchase with valor for a combined total of 5500 valor points. That is five weeks of patch 5.2 or 2 weeks if you entered the patch already at the valor cap. You can potentially hit friendly in one night since you can farm trash up to friendly minus 1 reputation and turn friendly with the first boss kill. Jin'rokh is an easy boss on normal though it could take you two weeks into 5.2 if you just raid LFR.

    If you started 5.2 at 0 valor you just be able to afford those 4 items since this is the sixth week since the patch was released. Hardly terrible and hardly screwing those that need it most. You don't need everything right away.
    So much for LFR being optional for raidiers, I guess we abandoned that? Well here's the thing it doesn't really help people fill out slots WHEN THE SLOTS THEY NEED ARE GATED BEHIND REP. LIke I said and keep having repeat the people who can get access to that gear, are people who don't need the slots filled. I don't care how you want to view gear from valor, it's still fucking backwards that the people who need the gear can't get access to it but the people who are already clearing the raid have it and most of them don't really need it. It gets banked by them because guess what THEY GET BETTER PIECES FROM CLEARING THE RAID.

    This tier (and the expansion overall really) ought to prove to everyone harping back for the good old days of tbc raiding that the model was shit and that going back is not only detrimental it's just not feasible. When you give people options to circumvent painfully running old content and moving up the tier with catch up they OVERWHELMINGLY take the options that let them skip tiers and moving up. Hell they'd rather BUY honor gear to cheat the fucking ilvl and a huge loss of justice points rather than continually run old raids just to catch up and when they do catch up they say fuck it to normal raiding (and all the hassles and burdens of dealing with that) and run lfr.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-04-12 at 02:30 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #1139
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I don't care how you want to view gear from valor, it's still fucking backwards that the people who need the gear can't get access to it but the people who are already clearing the raid have it and most of them don't really need it. It gets banked by them because guess what THEY GET BETTER PIECES FROM CLEARING THE RAID.
    I totally do not understand the double gating for valor gear this tier. I don't know what good purpose it serves.

    It doesn't slow down the crazy "elitists" at all, because they don't play the game for fun, they play it to surpass other people. They would lick razor blades for valor points.

    It makes life suck for everyone else. Why would you design a game where players are thinking, en masse, "this sucks."

    ???

  20. #1140
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardCoder View Post
    I totally do not understand the double gating for valor gear this tier. I don't know what good purpose it serves.

    It doesn't slow down the crazy "elitists" at all, because they don't play the game for fun, they play it to surpass other people. They would lick razor blades for valor points.

    It makes life suck for everyone else. Why would you design a game where players are thinking, en masse, "this sucks."

    ???
    Not only that the crazy elitists HAVE THE REP ALREADY. This only gates the people who would already be gated by the simple fact that they aren't investing the time needed in the game anyway. It's fucking horse shit that they catered to the smaller group of people who CONSUME so much of the content. If I were the developer I would say well you had your 15 bucks worth piss the fuck off.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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