Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[Toxigen]

Heres one from my own guild.

The MT and OT are away for a few weeks - weds scheduled raid featured a lot of no shows.

Why? Because everyone knows it means training two new guys up and therefore wiping over and over all night on stuff that's already been killed. And given learning it in the first place meant wiping over and over, people simply can't be arsed. Now, imagine that we weren't talking about a holiday but key players quitting entirely and we'd have a guild implosion. 2 raiders quit but in effect it means a ten man dies, at least for a while.

So no one in your guild has a tank alt that has the slightest shade of gear? I mean, heaven forbid you have to go back a tier for a quick cleanup of old bosses to gear tanks. Not like guilds of expansions past have EVER had to do that, right?

A part of being a good guild is having a "plan B" in case the worst case scenario occurs. Clearly, you have no fallout plan for both tanks leaving. That is your own damn fault, not Blizzard's.

You guys just aren't prepared. Oh well, collective raiding break for a "few weeks" if you aren't willing to bring in a couple new members. That's the way it works. If a guild implodes because people quit, then your recruiting methods need a serious evaluation. Now is a good time to do that, before more of your members leave due to lack of leadership. Mediocre 10 man guilds are a dime a dozen, anyway.

There's just so much whining and crying these days, its ridiculous. Whatever happened to just doing what it takes to prevail?

[Krastyn]

So no one in your guild has a tank alt that has the slightest shade of gear? I mean, heaven forbid you have to go back a tier for a quick cleanup of old bosses to gear tanks. Not like guilds of expansions past have EVER had to do that, right?

There's just so much whining and crying these days, its ridiculous. Whatever happened to just doing what it takes to prevail?

What happened to just doing what it takes is that people have grown past success at all costs to actually wanting to enjoy the game.

That is how it is for me, and those I played with. In Vanilla, I did the hardcore raiding, 4-5 days a week, doing whatever you need. TBC we switched to mostly 10 man, and partnered for some 25 man. WotLK and Cata we were pure 10 man, and only needed the odd dpps filler. During those two expansions, if we ever had more than 3people who couldn't make it, we called it. If ever I couldn't make it (I was gm, raid leader, and MT), we called it. Why? Because to me, we didn't hate ourselves.

Yes, if I wasn't there we could have found a pug tank, or have someone else bring an alt or off spec, and have someone else lead. But then you are dealing with people in different roles than normal, healing different, positioning slightly different, diffent leadership style. It is guaranteed not to be as efficient. And do all this for what? A chance at loot if thinks are on farm, or face smashing a progress boss for 3 hours. My guild and I had better things to do with our time. Sure, it meant it took us longer to progress. But we weren't in a race.

Once we went to this system, I would never go back.

[Toxigen]

What happened to just doing what it takes is that people have grown past success at all costs to actually wanting to enjoy the game.

I'm not talking about wiping. The issue I've decided to criticize is simply a guild leadership / recruitment thing.

So you want Blizzard to handle your personnel issues too?

[Vaelorian]

Not at all. The open policy is that everything is voluntary.

People not turning up is feedback which is absolutely essential for me to have in order to plan for the future and what I have to do. What you get when it's not voluntary is people turning up, hating it, then they hate the game and then they quit - either the guild or the game. And they do that without telling you.


I dont think or guess, I find out by letting everyone do whatever they want.

It's why I run the best social guild in the world with a retention rate which would simply astonish you.

Ofc you dumped "friends" in exchange for purple pixels so I doubt you'd understand.

Well bud - you don't want to see what I meant by that nor have the imagination how thing went. Should I be astonished by your retention rate? Dude you know jackshit about my guild, and as such you cannot claim that.
Just an example - we have regular guildmeets. Where former and current guildies meet. I can count on one hand the amount of guildies that left for greener pastures and didn't return at some point. Even now that we're no longer raiding people want to come back or even apply to us for the atmosphere.

Your way of running things might work for you. Fine. But its not the only holy grail out there. So please come of your "my guild is a lovable beer drinking -we don't give a fuck about progress, aslong as we don't have to teach new people-casual merry bunch" high horse.

The fact remains that LFR remains the biggest reason for the answer to this topic. Difficulty is by far a lesser reason. Convenience beats everything.

[Zogarth]

I quit the same, same as all my friends who also raided actively.

[Injin]

So no one in your guild has a tank alt that has the slightest shade of gear? I mean, heaven forbid you have to go back a tier for a quick cleanup of old bosses to gear tanks. Not like guilds of expansions past have EVER had to do that, right?

That wsn't the issue. Rather than solve my imaginary problems in a condescending way, why not read what I actually write?

The issue wasn't that we had no people to step up and tank, it was that the rest of the guys can't be arsed going through the whole wipe process again while the new guys learn.

A part of being a good guild is having a "plan B" in case the worst case scenario occurs. Clearly, you have no fallout plan for both tanks leaving. That is your own damn fault, not Blizzard's.

It's completely normal for the average guild to have no ability to replace key members easily. Not only are my MT and OT very good at what they do and would be hard to replace, they are my friends IRL (they are away getting married to each other in fact and will be on honeymoon.) Having people be disposable cogs in a machine isn't what the game is about for most folks. Sorry for not being a sociopath.

You guys just aren't prepared. Oh well, collective raiding break for a "few weeks" if you aren't willing to bring in a couple new members. That's the way it works. If a guild implodes because people quit, then your recruiting methods need a serious evaluation. Now is a good time to do that, before more of your members leave due to lack of leadership. Mediocre 10 man guilds are a dime a dozen, anyway.

None of that applies to my guild. Again, read properly.

There's just so much whining and crying these days, its ridiculous. Whatever happened to just doing what it takes to prevail?

Never happened in the past, doesn't now, won't in the future. You are just too short sighted to see it. Not just reading comprehension you have issues with, is it?

[Toxigen]

Fine, carry on with your defeatist attitude and watch your guild dissolve.

Not my problem.

[Injin]

Fine, carry on with your defeatist attitude and watch your guild dissolve.

Not my problem.

Can't see why the guild i've either been in or lead with the same core for half a decade would dissolve now.

Why not learn to read - and while you are at it, to back up and acknowledge when you've got stuff wrong?

Feel free to apologise any time you like.

[MoanaLisa]

Let's see if we can stay more on-topic (if there's anything left to discuss after almost 70 pages) and much less of the personal attacks and general aggressiveness that tend to get threads like this closed as being played out. Thanks.

[Dax75]

I do think it is cute that in a thread about where have all the raiders gone? we hear about 2 raiders who have gone on honeymoon

And it is the MT and OT none the less

[NeverStop]

Can't see why the guild i've either been in or lead with the same core for half a decade would dissolve now.

Why not learn to read - and while you are at it, to back up and acknowledge when you've got stuff wrong?

Feel free to apologise any time you like.

Will you still be able to kill Lei Shen before 5.4? That's all that matters if you "only raid Normal Mode."

[Osmeric]

Will you still be able to kill Lei Shen before 5.4? That's all that matters if you "only raid Normal Mode."

When raid groups collapse, it's not usually because they ran up against the absolute limit of their competence, but rather often because the difficulty exhausted their give-a-damn.

So it's not just a matter of "able", it's also a matter of "still care". If the game destroys this, it has failed just as badly.

[melodramocracy]

The last line of defense of a broken game is to blame its players.

Oh, I agree. But this game isn't broken. This tier is indeed beatable, it's been done many times already, thus the game functions correctly. What's been going on here for 69+ pages is different.

[Osmeric]

Oh, I agree. But this game isn't broken. This tier is indeed beatable, it's been done many times already, thus the game functions correctly. What's been going on here for 69+ pages is different.

No, a tier being "beatable" does not imply the game is working. Otherwise, any content tuned so that only Method could in practice do it would be "working".

[Injin]

Will you still be able to kill Lei Shen before 5.4? That's all that matters if you "only raid Normal Mode."

Oh yeah.

We cleared T14 in time as well. My comments about raiding being overtuned are coming from the perspective of looking at the stats and accepting what the data says + some nightmare experiences with alt runs, abortive pugs and our nascent second raid group (which is largely restricted to clearing hof and toes still, sadly.)

[hyphnos]

Oh, I agree. But this game isn't broken. This tier is indeed beatable, it's been done many times already, thus the game functions correctly. What's been going on here for 69+ pages is different.

And there are physics problems that are solveable by professors, this means they belong on a high school physics test. And there are planes that can be flown safely by expert pilots, therefore everyone can fly.

The percentage of guilds actively trying to beat this tier is quite low, even if you totally ignore the incredible dropoff in number of guilds downing 1 boss from t14.

That doesn't mean the game doesn't have problems and one of them is that the devs have lost touch of the difference between what is doable and what is reasonable. Very few highly successful games that have enduring appeal are structured in such a way that only by excelling at the game, do you have access to the best tools with which to play that game. Tiered progression, even partly so, makes that worse and creates a system whereby the best players who already have the best gear, have perpetually better access to better gear which skews tuning around the elite of the elite of the elite. WoW has avoided this trap for a long time, but it won't if the guys making the game don't do what good teachers typically do, make the tests challenge the skills of a competent average person and if the exceptional student makes a perfect score, then so be it.

[Glorious Leader]

Oh, I agree. But this game isn't broken. This tier is indeed beatable, it's been done many times already, thus the game functions correctly. What's been going on here for 69+ pages is different.

Lot's of things are "beatable" but that shouldn't be your criteria for wether or not the game is broken.

---------- Post added 2013-04-19 at 08:48 PM ----------

make the tests challenge the skills of a competent average person and if the exceptional student makes a perfect score, then so be it.

Thank you. This sums up my feelings very well.

[nekobaka]

WoW has avoided this trap for a long time, but it won't if the guys making the game don't do what good teachers typically do, make the tests challenge the skills of a competent average person and if the exceptional student makes a perfect score, then so be it.

What defines the competent average person? Does it include a person who is willing to improve themselves and work together as a team and spend a handful of minutes on reading a class guide or does it mean the so called majority who only care for themselves and believe that being responsible for ones mistakes is elitist?

You do not need to be the best of the best to complete the raids on normal, but the whole raid team needs to have respect for each other and try. Leave the heroics to the exceptional students.
I am not saying that MoP raids are not without their faults. I personally do not like most of the fights and found T11 and T12 to be far more fun as both a healer and DPS. Most of T14 is boring as a DPS with large imbalances with fight mechanics responsibilities that tend to make fights more frustrating for some while a drag for others. First boss in vaults is in my opinion the most difficult tank swap fight in T14 and are generally held off until later in a raid. Good luck trying to PuG that place without veteran tanks. The second boss is 90% tanks job not to screw up with the DPS and healers bored until phase 3 and healers stressing on mana and cooldowns if tanks screw up in the first two phases. Jumping to Terrace, mechanically the fights are more forgiving and simplistic with more tight tuning to make up for their simplicity. As a DPS the second boss was the most interesting but not much.

Personally I feel that Blizzard is trying to make MoP raids far too gimmicky in the wrong way in order to make them different from previous expansions. The way they did Ulduar was fun, most of T14 just makes me want to punch my monitor.

From my observation it is not just the raids themselves that are the issue. It is other factors in the game that are making raiding normal mode and up to be quite unappealing and not worth the effort required to keep pace. Compared to Cata, all Blizzard did was move back the wall into raiding.