Strongest Tank

[Deleted]

Well, this thread is certainly interesting. I thought that the lack of complaints from the community about how grossly OP paladin tanks are was a lack of general awareness (seeing that most raids see only two classes tank, the ones they have, and tanks only have one co-tank they play with). On the other hand, the poll shows most of the community knows it. I think is commendable of the tank community how everybody point it out without bitching.

If a dps class had such an advantage over other classes, oh the shitstorm that shall be unleased. Sadly it is the only way that will make Blizzard attempt to fix it, instead of letting it be an entire expansion.

[Enosh]

As long as I don't have a dk with me, im happy. And same thing there, DKs are not bad tanks individually, they just work horribly with a paladin co-tank compared to other tanks.

just out of interest, why? ^^

[Dalinos]

Well, this thread is certainly interesting. I thought that the lack of complaints from the community about how grossly OP paladin tanks are was a lack of general awareness (seeing that most raids see only two classes tank, the ones they have, and tanks only have one co-tank they play with). On the other hand, the poll shows most of the community knows it. I think is commendable of the tank community how everybody point it out without bitching.

If a dps class had such an advantage over other classes, oh the shitstorm that shall be unleased. Sadly it is the only way that will make Blizzard attempt to fix it, instead of letting it be an entire expansion.

That's cause we tanks are friendly, rational, logical fellows

[Squirl]

Well, this thread is certainly interesting. I thought that the lack of complaints from the community about how grossly OP paladin tanks are was a lack of general awareness (seeing that most raids see only two classes tank, the ones they have, and tanks only have one co-tank they play with). On the other hand, the poll shows most of the community knows it. I think is commendable of the tank community how everybody point it out without bitching.

If a dps class had such an advantage over other classes, oh the shitstorm that shall be unleased. Sadly it is the only way that will make Blizzard attempt to fix it, instead of letting it be an entire expansion.

Tanks don't have an easy epeen meter to point to like DPS. It should be damage + healing / damage taken.

Healers should have a damage + healing meter too.

[Dalinos]

My "credentials" are in my sig.... Either way, ignoring facts because you don't see someone's armory means you are already going to ignore what people have to say unless it meshes with what you want.



You are saying the same thing I said (dodge means unreliabilty), but arguing that taking the damage and then healing it up afterwards means that the damage taken doesn't matter. You might have an arsenal of skills to counter your unlucky streaks, but often times you need those cooldowns for specific parts of the fight (and won't have them when those "unlucky streaks" happen).

Going back to what I said in my first post: which tank would you rather have, the one that doesn't take the damage at all or the one that does and can heal back some of it afterwards? The most important thing as a tank is managing your damage taken; the tank that can do this the best and the most often wins. You are asking why bears aren't preferred. That is why. No one is saying they are bad or terrible tanks - they can manage the content perfectly well. Other tanks are just more reliable and predictable at damage intake, especially on 25 heroic content. Bears are the only tanks with an avoidance mastery/avoidance-based playstyle. Mitigation > avoidance 100% of the time. 'tis just how it is.

Meh..I guess that's the case in 25man and 25man heroic, at the moment. It just seems weird - in TBC and WOTLK, 25mans were very doable by a bear, and they shone on some encounters. Must be cause I'm just running 10man these days I understand your point fully, about mitigation trumping avoidance, and I guess part of the solution will come when the ilvl becomes so high that druids will be able to Armour cap through Mastery, just like they did in TBC (albeit that was because of huge green armour on leather and an insane multiplier).

I dunno, I guess I got abit annoyed hearing everyone say "Druids suck, druids are the worst, druids this druids that" when I've been tanking on my bear for 6 or so years. They work fine in 10man, and (at the moment), that's what matters to me ^^.

Oh, and why I ask for credentials, it's not that I'm not open to other people's views, it's just that I'd like to know abit of information about the poster, concerning the game that is Shows the experience and gives the opinion more..weight, if I can call it that.

[Deleted]

just out of interest, why? ^^

First of because paladins and dks work to similar. They have the same strong and weak sides of tanking. Which is why I prefer a tank that complement paladins better. Which Warriors and Druids work the best for.

Secondly, a bit the gear issue. Kinda the same with a warrior sort off, but still worse with a DK. And warriors are just so much stronger OTs.

And the main issue is that both paladins and DKs have the need to be the main tank, they both require a lot of vengeance to work properly.
Neither do much work with low vengeance. Ofc, this apply to all tanks, but moreso to paladins and dks. Ofc it also affect druids and monks. Warriors on the other hand do not really need a lot of vengeance. This is why warriors is the perfect secondary tank. As paladins scales the best with vengeance, and warriors scales the worst, makes it a natural MT>OT order. They do not share so much loot and warriors have extremely good utility, not to mention survivability. If only warriors had a bit more damage output they would be godlike.

[Zaubo]

I have seen some VERY averge players get by on DK tanks. They are one of the simplest to manage. You keep your diseases up, death strike, death strike a little more and profit. I have a tank of each class and they are by far the least challenging.

This is like me saying the same about paladins. "Just build holy power, hit some SotR, maybe a WoG. Build some more, repeat."

You know it isn't that simple, and if you think it is, you are not maximizing the class.

[Okacz]

I love monk tanking, being very rewarding for utilizing all abilities perfectly and smart reforging. That said, gotta agree: first few hits, before Elusive Brew stacks and Shuffle up for more than 15 seconds are a total nightmare.

[Deleted]

Warriors on the other hand do not really need a lot of vengeance. This is why warriors is the perfect secondary tank.

While it's true that we regulary can maintain high shield block uptime, doesn't matter if we're tanking or not - it won't help us or the raid if we're not actual eating attacks with it. A Shield Barrier without vengeance is just as strong/weak as any other tank-heal.

A DK can build up a very high blood shield while offtanking, i tanked with one on Empress heroic and he didn't need any heal up until the addphase which if really impressive if you ask me.

On the loot for a class x: totally depends on your lineup. I could talk about this for ages but in the end you should just question if that matters at all and if it's really bring the class or bring the player. And unless you're raiding bleeding edge progression that shouldn't be a real concern. For 10M this might be a harder judgement call (maybe even relevant on the de-buff coverage), but to be honest any 2 tanks can work. Having one tank of a type (block+avoidance) has it's advantages on some fights, currently having a paladin is really huge right now due to many crucial bop & bubble-able tank debuffs. I dislike the diversity (or even lack) of raidcooldowns, monks avert harm is laughable compared to a demobanner/raidshout or aura mastery.

[Deleted]

This is like me saying the same about paladins. "Just build holy power, hit some SotR, maybe a WoG. Build some more, repeat."

You know it isn't that simple, and if you think it is, you are not maximizing the class.

Actually mathematically possible to indiciate how hard each spec is, and DKs score as the easiest of all tank specs. In terms of DPS rotation purely.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 11:55 PM ----------

While it's true that we regulary can maintain high shield block uptime, doesn't matter if we're tanking or not - it won't help us or the raid if we're not actual eating attacks with it. A Shield Barrier without vengeance is just as strong/weak as any other tank-heal.

The warrior can still intervene and stuff without any vengeance. Also when tank swapping, if he is coming out from low vengeance, tanks like paladins, dks, druids are still dependant on vengeance to get their abilities such as Sacred Shield up high to get a smooth swap.

A warriors shield block do not require vengeance in the same way. Making them smoother to pick up a boss with low vengeance. Also, they are generally just beast with their high block chance, armor and good all round CD usage. Making them perfect for the role of the "low vengeance tank".

[Deleted]

The warrior can still intervene and stuff without any vengeance. Also when tank swapping, if he is coming out from low vengeance, tanks like paladins, dks, druids are still dependant on vengeance to get their abilities such as Sacred Shield up high to get a smooth swap.

DK can still grip, Pala can still Sac, Druid can still do their thing - all without any vengeance. I don't see how those utility spells have anything to do with vengeance or any other scaling. And all those classes can prepare for a swap like pooling rage, saving holy power or building up a blood shield. While i can agree that a high sacred shield is a nice thing to have it's far from crucial, what is important is that he can use his SotR right after the swap to greatly decrease the physical damage incoming and that's totally possible.

Maybe it's just a thing of the grass is always greener elsewhere but on most fights there are no maintank/offtank stuff since ages, you just swap after x stacks and that's it unless you want to call the guy pulling the boss the maintank. All tanks can start the fight without to much hassle and all benefit in a great way from more vengeance.

[Deleted]

Yes, all classes can do everything. The point of this thread is, which is the best. And warriors simply are the best at that.
And DKS/Druids provide no real benefit for their Co-Tank while warriors can boost their Co-Tank extremely much.

Also depends on how you do the fights. Most of these "taunt at x stacks" are irrelevant, and you can actually go for higher stacks, especially in 10 man.

We commonly let 1 tank take a lot more stacks than the other because we noticed this to be much more benefitial for the raid, both in terms of tank dps output and for healers. Also, we opt to 1 tank as many encounters as possible.

[matthias9742]

I voted paladin. Currently I play a DK and the thing i miss most from other tank classes is the ability to do ANYTHING to assist the raid in survival/utility.
Warriors have intervene, banner, cry. Pallys have hands, LoH, and intense raid healing via battle healer. Monks have guard, zen, the damage divert (i dont remember the name) and chi-healing for the raid in a pinch. Druids from what ive seen are a close 2nd in the no utility dept. with only stampeding roar and HotW Tranq in a pinch.

[Deleted]

Actually mathematically possible to indiciate how hard each spec is, and DKs score as the easiest of all tank specs. In terms of DPS rotation purely.

---------- Post added 2013-03-19 at 11:55 PM ----------



The warrior can still intervene and stuff without any vengeance. Also when tank swapping, if he is coming out from low vengeance, tanks like paladins, dks, druids are still dependant on vengeance to get their abilities such as Sacred Shield up high to get a smooth swap.

A warriors shield block do not require vengeance in the same way. Making them smoother to pick up a boss with low vengeance. Also, they are generally just beast with their high block chance, armor and good all round CD usage. Making them perfect for the role of the "low vengeance tank".

You're full of shit.

Please tell me in a concrete way how DK tanks are vengeance dependant.


edit: Haha this makes me laugh. "Mathematically possible to indicate how hard each spec is" ... I am sorry but what?

[Deleted]

edit: Haha this makes me laugh. "Mathematically possible to indicate how hard each spec is" ... I am sorry but what?

Take the median dps output from the top100 logs of a spec.
Take the median dps output from all logs from a spec.

Compare the relative difference.

While this is not a sure math, and of course requires a sizeable sample size, it is still a much more valid and accurate way of measuring than "I think" or "This class was easy in WotLK so by extension this class is also easy now"

This will tell you how much more dps a top player is pushing in comparison to a medium player.
If a top player of class A pushes out 20% more dps than a medium player of class A
and a top player of class B pushes out 40% more dps than a medium player of class B

It is safe to asssume that class B has a harder time perfecting his rotation, as it is valid to presume that both top players of class A and B is pushing their class to the limit, and the medium player is pushing as best as he can.


@DKs Hey, that is just my opinion. I have stated my opinion, if you have some other, please be my guest. A DK can't intervene me or do anything helpful while he is not tanking. He does not really provide anything for raid utility either.

[Akylios]

And DKS/Druids provide no real benefit for their Co-Tank while warriors can boost their Co-Tank extremely much.

I'm not sure I completely agree with that. Take Tooth & Claw for example, considering how ridiculously often T&C can be applied to a target, and considering the fact that it's not even on the GCD, I have a hard time not seeing it as being of great benefit. Especially considering how many fights allow the offtank to still keep a fairly high amount of vengeance up, even when not directly tanking the 'big boss'. An extreme example of this would be Garajal, where a druid tank could shave an absurd amount of damage from the current main tank, and in doing so, the entire raid.

Not every encounter gives you as much of a use out of it as Garajal, but still there are plenty of encounters where you can pump dozens of high vengeance T&C debuffs on the main boss, even when in an offtanking role. On top of that, if an offtanking druid has no vengeance at all, T&C will still be handing out 30k absorbs for the main tank on a very, very frequent basis. This can only help smooth out the dmg the main tank is taking by a very decent amount.

Hell, as a bat tank on Tortos I can easily find time to drop multiple T&C debuffs on Tortos throughout the fight, many of which will be at extremely high vengeance levels. I even specifically tank the bats inside Tortos' hitbox so I can pump off-the-GCD Tooth and Claw debuffs on him WHILE tanking the bats. (although I obviously need to use a good chunk of my rage while tanking the bats to keep myself alive, but rage already comes very, very fast for druids this tier)

I'll certainly be a bit disappointed if other tanks don't see T&C as being of any real benefit, seeing as druids can quite literally shave millions of potential damage off their co-tanks by using it.

[Deleted]

Was more so directed to DKs. Tooth and claw is actually very nice. Just not as nice as safe guard, rallying cry and standard. But it is the reason that druid is my second choice in off-tank. Though it is not always easy to use on every encounter.

And not so many druids can use T&C properly either. You are a rare breed.

[Deleted]

And warriors simply are the best at that.

The best at what? Popping an utility spell? You probably can't tell the difference between safeguard damage reduction being present or not unless someone tells you about it outside of predictable bursts when your active tank most likely already pops his stuff. The argueable part is that one hit they can intervene on their co-tank, but it's still only one hit every 30 seconds. That's why i don't see how this is a huge boost like you phrase it but i get your point in general and compared to the other tanks. Crowning him from just that one spell alone is still wrong, imho - i'd vote for warrior for other, unique abilities like (mass) spell reflect but those are only very handy on a small amount of fights. And while rallying cry nets a nice puffer it's nothing that avoids damage at all while Devotion Aura is a nice flat 20% damage reduction for your whole raid on all magical damage, well it can shine in combination with demo banner (works on all damage) but that's not always easy to place/use.

On the stacks part: can you give me some examples on that? And what's the advantage of having one tank eating noticeable more stacks? He'll do more dps for sure but his co-tank will run out of vengeance after 20 seconds and just sit there dealing terribad dps. Having both tanks swaps accordingly allows for better cooldown management (assuming both have a rather similar amount of cooldowns) and actually is easier to heal for our healer.

Ps: some more examples/things to think about
DK = AMZ, almost nullifying one huge magical raid burst (75% reduction) on a fair cooldown (120s). Army on several occassions, taunting and creating distraction when it's most needed.
Monk = insane support on raidhealing, especially if clumped up (eg Megaera's Rampage or Lei-Shen's last phase) - Zen's Sphere can be super strong (100k+ hps) and easily make up for the lack of decent raidcooldowns.

[Deleted]

Think you underestimate safe guard. And ofc you use it before predictable damage bursts. Why would you waste it otherwise? Thats like popping a CD before you know damage is coming. And what does it matter the other tank popped a CD? I rather reduce 20% additional damage + 1 auto attack then nothing.

For the stacks. Well, like Ji-Kun. We let one tank take 4 stacks and the other 2 stacks. On Ji'Kun the off-tank can mantain his vengeance levels by taking pools. on other fights a simple taunt+taunt back gives the off tank a respectable vengeance level. Stacking vengeance on a tank like a paladin will make his self healing + sacred shield sky rocket not to mention his raid healing from battle-healer, giving healers more chance to heal him instead. Overall making it a lot easier to heal.

Not so many other good examples really this tier. But on any fight where only 1 tank is required for a burn phase or similar, like Horridons last phase we always let the paladin tank.

AMZ, I would not call it huge, as it only reduces about 150-200k damage total that is 20k from each player. As a paladin I can drop my lights hammer it heals for over 1000% more. Army does not taunt raid bosses. Not that many adds that needs taunting this tier, and really, I would just get pissed of at army taunting adds. Would make the life harder due to lower vengeance levels.

And yes, Zen's Sphere is nice. Though druids have similar depending on what choice of talent they go for. Nature's Vigil can heal quite a bit and they got Tranq aswell, while not great still heals decent amount.

I would be the first to say, I do not have a lot of (positive) experience with monk tanks. So maybe I am biased against them vs druids. Can you provide a log of a good BRM in your opinion so I can compare?

Yes, all tanks works, all tanks have their uses. But this thread is about what tank is the best.
What does a DK provide better than any other tank? And outweighs the departments that dks fall short in ofc. One solid answer would be good. AMZ is not really a good answer since it scales from STR, not AP. Neither is army.
Until we hear a good argument pro DKs, it is safe to count them out of this, as for the last 4 pages in this thread, nothing has been so great about DKs that it spoke for them over another tank. And I am sorry if you play DK, but it is just facts. DKs provide a lot less for the raid than any other tank. That does not mean that DKs are not viable. But to stress again, "which is the best", not every class can be a winner, and this time around, dks aint a winner.

[Deleted]

Paladin is and will always be the best tank. Period.