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  1. #21
    To note, the +/- 1k DPS listing for T14N gear that NonMagical linked from EJ based on different openers is DPS over the course of the fight, not DPS in the opening 5-10 GCDs. Anyone who cares about the last "up to" 1,000 DPS should really sim for themselves each opening sequence to see how different it is for them (between applying rupture and SnD first). It is true that this, in 120k+ environments, with an expected variance of ~300 DPS between MOST of the opening options, is VERY SMALL. If you're interested enough to ask, you might find it worth studying up on - and simming for yourself.

    As NonMagical pointed out, what WILL hold true, is that you should play the opener you're able to perform ideally. I don't see swapping SnD vs. Rupture as a "first button" to be something that would change my comfort value with openers, but if it is, do what you do best. Personal performance > ideal button order, just like it was for combat to go ruptureless (when it wasn't a DPS increase to drop it on paper).

    Verain: totally forgot that, never notice it since I'm usually saving vanish for emergencies and in the opening of the fight it's just not noticeable at all -.- (but then I don't play my rogue at a competitive level anymore, and primarily follow the theory).

  2. #22
    I would counter all those saying that the dps difference in the first few seconds of burst is 'minimal' are severely underestimating the proc on the Shado Pan trinket, which effectively will boost your agility by 30%+ on the opener. If you are doing over 350k dps for the first 20 seconds, 10% less efficiency means you do 700k less damage, which can easily be the difference between getting a kill and not in many cases. If everyone in your raid is able to min/max to this extent it will actually open up the viability of alternate strategies on fights like council.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    If trickle down economics is working, it's only because there is a damn leak somewhere! -The One Percent

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    I would counter all those saying that the dps difference in the first few seconds of burst is 'minimal' are severely underestimating the proc on the Shado Pan trinket, which effectively will boost your agility by 30%+ on the opener. If you are doing over 350k dps for the first 20 seconds, 10% less efficiency means you do 700k less damage, which can easily be the difference between getting a kill and not in many cases. If everyone in your raid is able to min/max to this extent it will actually open up the viability of alternate strategies on fights like council.
    I'm sorry where are these numbers coming from? You change mut to ambush and suddenly that equates to 10% of the entire 20s? You even paraphase "...the first few seconds" but still calculate for 20.

  4. #24
    In theory your DPS should be the same, no matter your opener, once you have SnD and Rupture up. Give or take a little bit for how many combo points you used to get rupture up (and thus how sooner you would need to refresh it). Being that you can get SnD and Rupture up in a minimum of 4 globals (a max combo point Rupture with a minimum of 5 globals, max of 6), it means no matter what your opening rotation is, DPS after the first 6 seconds is largely unaffected.
    Last edited by NonMagical; 2013-03-20 at 01:01 AM.
    "Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps." -Ghostcrawler 3/22/2009
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864857264&pageNo=4&sid=1#66

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by NonMagical View Post
    In theory your DPS should be the same, no matter your opener, once you have SnD and Rupture up. Give or take a little bit for how many combo points you used to get rupture up (and thus how sooner you would need to refresh it). Being that you can get SnD and Rupture up in a minimum of 4 globals (a max combo point Rupture with a minimum of 5 globals, max of 6), it means no matter what your opening rotation is, DPS after the first 6 seconds is largely unaffected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    It is true that this, in 120k+ environments, with an expected variance of ~300 DPS between MOST of the opening options, is VERY SMALL. If you're interested enough to ask, you might find it worth studying up on - and simming for yourself.
    The above two quotes are really important for anyone that wants to argue about how important the opener is. Unless you've got some new evidence (math) showing that opening variations will have >1k DPS changes to the length of a 9+ minute fight, please don't try to continue arguing about importance of the opener. The greatest variation should be on the order of 1k DPS, from absolute worst expected to absolute best expected opener.

    If you have more to add on what an optimal opener IS and how you arrived at that conclusion, feel free to continue the discussion, as per simming yourself for openers (or the T15H BiS profile, since we refer to that a lot). Oddball conjecture from this point forward, when we have simulation responses already, is simply argumentative.

  6. #26
    Nobody even pointed out that starting out with pre-ToTing you have an additional 15% damage for the first 6 seconds of the fight. Taking into consideration this and pre pots and all of your trinkets aligning and potentially bloodlust on several fights, the first 6 seconds of the fight will probably be your highest dps period during the entire fight. You just completely dismiss this period as 'not mattering for the overall dps of the fight'. This is what I suggest as the best opener:

    >1 min before pull: Change talent to Marked for Death, cast marked for death on the boss
    10 seconds before pull: Use 5 CP from MfD for a full duration Snd, Change talents back to Anticipation
    8 seconds before pull: pop evasion
    5 seconds before pull: trade ToT with other rogue in raid
    1 second before pull: pre pot
    0.5 second before pull: stealth
    On Pull: Shadowstep -> Ambush
    1st GCD: Rupture
    2nd GCD: Shadow Blades
    3rd GCD: Vendetta
    4th GCD: Envenom
    5th/6th GCD: Mutilate
    Spam mutilate unless you are going to cap on cps as long as Shadow Blades is up, Clip Envenoms until Shado Pan trinket proc ends

    -Using MfD then changing talents means you don't even need to waste a GCD on SnD
    Last edited by Venant; 2013-03-20 at 03:49 PM.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    If trickle down economics is working, it's only because there is a damn leak somewhere! -The One Percent

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Nobody even pointed out that starting out with pre-ToTing you have an additional 15% damage for the first 6 seconds of the fight. Taking into consideration this and pre pots and all of your trinkets aligning and potentially bloodlust on several fights, the first 6 seconds of the fight will probably be your highest dps period during the entire fight. You just completely dismiss this period as 'not mattering for the overall dps of the fight'. This is what I suggest as the best opener:

    >1 min before pull: Change talent to Marked for Death, cast marked for death on the boss
    10 seconds before pull: Use 5 CP from MfD for a full duration Snd, Change talents back to Anticipation
    8 seconds before pull: pop evasion
    5 seconds before pull: trade ToT with other rogue in raid
    1 second before pull: pre pot
    0.5 second before pull: stealth
    On Pull: Shadowstep -> Ambush
    1st GCD: Rupture
    2nd GCD: Shadow Blades
    3rd GCD: Vendetta
    4th GCD: Envenom
    5th/6th GCD: Mutilate
    Spam mutilate unless you are going to cap on cps as long as Shadow Blades is up, Clip Envenoms until Shado Pan trinket proc ends

    -Using MfD then changing talents means you don't even need to waste a GCD on SnD
    Finishers on the first and fourth global with no generators in between. CLEARLY an optimized opener. Thanks so much for enlightening us all. PS: as has been stated, mut>ambush. Also, SB is off the GCD.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    >1 min before pull: Change talent to Marked for Death, cast marked for death on the boss
    10 seconds before pull: Use 5 CP from MfD for a full duration Snd, Change talents back to Anticipation
    You can't change talents while their respective abilities are on cooldown. They implemented that SPECIFICALLY to discourage that type of behavior. The combo points from MfD will fade before the 1min cd is up.

    personally, I prefer rup before SnD. once you get both rolling, you should easily get a 5-pt rupture AND refresh a 1pt SnD with envenom long before the 2-3pt rupture fades.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2013-03-20 at 08:11 PM.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    You can't change talents while their respective abilities are on cooldown. They implemented that SPECIFICALLY to discourage that type of behavior. The combo points from MfD will fade before the 1min cd is up.

    personally, I prefer rup before SnD. once you get both rolling, you should easily get a 5-pt rupture AND refresh a 1pt SnD with envenom long before the 2-3pt rupture fades.
    You can actually put the 5 CP up with MfD and then wait a minute for it to go off CD, when it goes off cd you still have the 5 CPs which you can use to put up SnD. You do lose the CPs if you change talents, but if you use them to put up SnD changing talents does not make your SnD go away. I was a bit hasty with writing up my prior post and neglected that you need a mut between the rupture and envenom or possibly a vanish + mut, the goal of my post was more to point out that you don't even need to use SnD during the opener due to the MfD trick.

    If you don't believe me about MfD go try it on a training dummy. Switch to MfD, put up the 5 cp, wait a minute and then hit SnD and after that is up change talents to anticipation.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    If trickle down economics is working, it's only because there is a damn leak somewhere! -The One Percent

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Nobody even pointed out that starting out with pre-ToTing you have an additional 15% damage for the first 6 seconds of the fight. Taking into consideration this and pre pots and all of your trinkets aligning and potentially bloodlust on several fights, the first 6 seconds of the fight will probably be your highest dps period during the entire fight. You just completely dismiss this period as 'not mattering for the overall dps of the fight'. This is what I suggest as the best opener:

    >1 min before pull: Change talent to Marked for Death, cast marked for death on the boss
    10 seconds before pull: Use 5 CP from MfD for a full duration Snd, Change talents back to Anticipation
    8 seconds before pull: pop evasion
    5 seconds before pull: trade ToT with other rogue in raid
    1 second before pull: pre pot
    0.5 second before pull: stealth
    On Pull: Shadowstep -> Ambush
    1st GCD: Rupture
    2nd GCD: Shadow Blades
    3rd GCD: Vendetta
    4th GCD: Envenom
    5th/6th GCD: Mutilate
    Spam mutilate unless you are going to cap on cps as long as Shadow Blades is up, Clip Envenoms until Shado Pan trinket proc ends

    -Using MfD then changing talents means you don't even need to waste a GCD on SnD
    Ty but Id rather just play the game and pull the boss tham asking my guild to wait 1 minute so I can swap talent and get maybe 50 DPs overall on the long run. Also why use evasion before pull what does that give you ? And I liked the trade ToT with other rogue in raid part because it automatically implies every raid in the world has 2 rogues...

  11. #31
    Won't lie usually don't have a minute to just sit around waiting to switch cds... maybe 30 seconds or so lol...

  12. #32
    Instead of picking the opening sequence apart lets take a look at this MFD trick. If that is indeed possible and there is time to do so, that's pretty cool. If you can already have SnD rolling on pull then that would completely negate having to use a non damaging finisher/global in the opening rotation while you're still under the effects of your pre-pot.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by mongoose6 View Post
    Instead of picking the opening sequence apart lets take a look at this MFD trick. If that is indeed possible and there is time to do so, that's pretty cool. If you can already have SnD rolling on pull then that would completely negate having to use a non damaging finisher/global in the opening rotation while you're still under the effects of your pre-pot.
    It is possible ppl did it on the PTR and someone coment on it somewhere around here, its a minimal DPS upgrade tough, very minimal you just need to evaluate if its worth the ahssle of doing it, the deal is you cant switch Marked for Death while its on CD tough so you need to wait 1 min before every pull to do this trick.

  14. #34
    There seem to be lots of little tricks out there that aren't widely disclosed, for example abusing the tier 6 set bonus was known by some for quite awhile but it didn't really get public attention until recently. I think a raid would have to be insanely efficient to have less than 90 seconds of down time between attempts, especially considering how long it takes to run back to many of these areas in ToT, you just need to make it back about 45 seconds before the slowest person in your raid.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
    If trickle down economics is working, it's only because there is a damn leak somewhere! -The One Percent

  15. #35
    the problem with the MFD trick is almost everyone i know has issues changing talents that causes them to need to reload before they can...when you're burning the cps before you can change the talent and trying to do so ~10 sec before the pull that can screw everything up. wasn't worth it to me.

  16. #36
    My guild would hate me if I forced them to make me wait for MfD swapping. As somebody else said also, you have your rotation being Rupture -> Envenom with no combo point generators in between. And, for those who didn't realize, SB does not use a GCD (Anticipation does though). Also... Is there something I need to know about Evasion? Why pop Evasion?
    "Our logic is actually pretty simple. If hybrid classes can do the same dps as pure classes, then why have pure classes in the game? So we design the pure classes to do slightly higher dps." -Ghostcrawler 3/22/2009
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15864857264&pageNo=4&sid=1#66

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    There seem to be lots of little tricks out there that aren't widely disclosed, for example abusing the tier 6 set bonus was known by some for quite awhile but it didn't really get public attention until recently. I think a raid would have to be insanely efficient to have less than 90 seconds of down time between attempts, especially considering how long it takes to run back to many of these areas in ToT, you just need to make it back about 45 seconds before the slowest person in your raid.
    Downtimes are obviously bigger tham 1 minute but youre usualy either corpse running or waiting for a rez for the bulk of it not using Marked for Death on boss, if you are alive them most likely everyone else is too and its itme to pull. And its freaking like 50 extra DPS tops, all you do is save yourself 1 GCD and 1 cp that youd otherwise use on S&D.

    @NonMagical- ye the evasion part has also gotten me wandering.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by NonMagical View Post
    My guild would hate me if I forced them to make me wait for MfD swapping. As somebody else said also, you have your rotation being Rupture -> Envenom with no combo point generators in between. And, for those who didn't realize, SB does not use a GCD (Anticipation does though). Also... Is there something I need to know about Evasion? Why pop Evasion?
    evasion is because he and the other rogue are tricks trading immediately instead of tricksing the tank first, so theres a chance they get one another killed.

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