1. #1

    Question Blood Threat issues vs Prot Pally

    Hello,

    Hey guys, ever since 5.2 dropped, I have been having a lot of trouble holding threat against the other tank (Prot paladin). Mainly seems to happen during conceration and sometimes during hammer of righteous.

    Unfortunately, I cannot post any links but you can check out our guild's logs on world of logs (Circle of Seven on US-Alexstrasza). My tank is 499 equipped with a 476 2hander, and Brutal Talisman of the shado-pan Assault + Vaporshield Medallion as the trinkets. The Prot paladin is around the same gear level as myself with similar trinkets + 489 1hander.

    Mainly noticeable was last night on Tsulong where on my turn, I was chain taunting and spamming rune strike on the boss but with him mainly white damaging and conceration up, the boss kept aggroing back to him.

    I am soft expertise + hit capped and using rune of fallen crusader as weapon enchant. At this point, I am thinking about going hard expertise cap to compete with him and I have been running LFR constantly on my DK in the hopes of getting the sha touched 2hander.

    Any advice on how I can overcome this problem would be much appreciated. Is there a viable haste build for blood DKs?

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by topapagaramonde View Post
    Hello,

    Hey guys, ever since 5.2 dropped, I have been having a lot of trouble holding threat against the other tank (Prot paladin). Mainly seems to happen during conceration and sometimes during hammer of righteous.

    Unfortunately, I cannot post any links but you can check out our guild's logs on world of logs (Circle of Seven on US-Alexstrasza). My tank is 499 equipped with a 476 2hander, and Brutal Talisman of the shado-pan Assault + Vaporshield Medallion as the trinkets. The Prot paladin is around the same gear level as myself with similar trinkets + 489 1hander.

    Mainly noticeable was last night on Tsulong where on my turn, I was chain taunting and spamming rune strike on the boss but with him mainly white damaging and conceration up, the boss kept aggroing back to him.

    I am soft expertise + hit capped and using rune of fallen crusader as weapon enchant. At this point, I am thinking about going hard expertise cap to compete with him and I have been running LFR constantly on my DK in the hopes of getting the sha touched 2hander.

    Any advice on how I can overcome this problem would be much appreciated. Is there a viable haste build for blood DKs?
    Hit 7.5% > Exp 7.5% > Mastery > Haste > Parry is what I roll with for reforges.

    The most important thing to be able to do at tauntswaps is simply having a dps cooldown at the ready. For a Deathknight that would be Dancing Rune Weapon and/or on-use DPS trinkets. If you still don't get enough aggro, it means that the Paladin has a high amount of vengeance while you have zero. Tell him to stop attacking for a global cooldown or two until you have built up some aggro on the boss.

    Vengeance really fucks up tankswaps if both your tanks are after the maximum amount of DPS output (especially as a Prot Pala / BrM Monk), they heal/shield the raid with their damage respectively.

    There's only one way to go about the vengeance problem, and that is to stop auto-attacking for a second or turn off Righteouss Fury after the taunt. I change from B-presence to F-presence often at a tauntswap (be sure to spend your runic before-hand though, because it will be gone if you don't have the presences glyph).


    P.s: If you're not sure about your survivability, the only boss where it's beneficial in a tanking sence to reforge Haste > Mastery is Lei-Shi, because that fight is almost 100% Magic dmg. If you however are skilled enough, you could go for Haste > Mastery. I do that all the time when we're at a boss that we can easily kill; it makes the fight faster and makes people rank. ^^

  3. #3
    Your prot pally is probably hit capped and hard exp cap and gearing for haste instead of mastery, which allows them to have a good consistent dps. So, when it is his turn to tank the boss he probably generates a lot of threat extremely quickly, threat that you are not able to recover as quickly. I would advice you to stay away from getting hard exp cap as you will sacrifice a lot of mastery/avoidance to accomplish that making you generate more dps/threat, but be squishier.

    I think the problem is that the other tank simply generates more threat that you cannot recover without being less tanky. few things the prot pally can do to help you: cancel the vengeance buff after you taunt boss; tell him to hit less hard when it's his turn so he doesn't generate a stupid amount of threat in the few seconds he has the boss, change rotation a bit for that boss (skip consecration and holy wrath, only use holy power generators and consumers, etc)

    blood dk and haste don't mesh too well. With paladin haste reduces cd on the generators allowing him to use more consumers (which have no cooldowns). But the effect of haste is far less on dk because gearing for haste will sacrifice your mastery, which will reduce the size of your shield, making you far more spikey.

    in general, if the paladin is gearing for haste and not mastery and is hard exp cap, you will not be able to compete on threat unless you outgear him. prot pala dps and heals are ridiculous for haste builds making them generate far more threat overall while not being overly squishy.

  4. #4
    Or.... you could have your pally just turn off RF when he's not actively tanking. If he's still going full out with his (haste enhanced?) rotation then ofc vengeance will have him tear aggro off you. There's a very similar thread already discussing the same stuff here: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...nking-problems

    Also, the weapon ilvl difference is going to be fairly significant at your gear level, that probably isn't helping things.

    Ultimately the only thing you should be really concerned with is that you're both ahead of the DPS on threat, if that's a non-issue then threat between tanks is something you can easily fix by stance/form swapping or turning off threat abilities etc.

    I have, and never would want to use non mastery builds just to deal with threat issues, the loss of survivability would be too much for me.

  5. #5
    Ok,

    Instead of hard expertise cap, I will try going for Mastery > soft caps > haste build, I have also switched to Blood tap. Will update this after our Tuesday night's raid with results.

  6. #6
    I have some ideas that you may be interested in.
    1) Glyph DRW. Save it and enough RP before you taunt. Hopefully that will make things better right away but I personally don't think it's a good choice for long turn.
    2) Take Blood Tap (if you didn't) and save some blood charge and RP for extra DS/RS before you taunt. And again this isn't a permanent solution either, just help to take over threat faster.
    3) This is a tricky thing. If surviving isn't a problem, you can try eat some damage on purpose to stack vengeance while he is tanking. Like, for Horridon you can stay in double swipe for a bit, for Ji-Kun you can soak some pools (which actually helps), etc. But you and your group should be able to handle the extra damage going.

    I do agree most of them mentioned above that your pally should be watching his own threat, too. It happened on my monk too before 5.2 when I was tanking with a warrior tank, which I had to completely stop even auto-attack. It hurts not only my dps, but my surviving too because I couldn't have enough chi or brew, but I had no choice otherwise I'll fail my whole group. It's not something we should be proud of that we can hold insane threat forever with this vengeance system.

    About hard cap I don't really think it's necessary for dk. Soft cap should be enough generally. I also think you might do something wrong with your rotation. I know pally is pretty crazy atm but as long as we have 7.5% hit/exp they shouldn't be that crazy, at least shouldn't be getting aggro with auto-attack.
    Last edited by jasonleekungfu; 2013-03-18 at 06:20 PM.

  7. #7
    Ya, I was not using blood tap so will be trying that out, along with the forging strat I posted above. The only thing I can think of that is wrong with my rotation would be not putting down D&D often enough, I normally don't unless its AoE since I can use those runes for DS. The other tank has a habit of putting down consecration on CD. I am gonna try working with him and both of us are going to have to make a rotation adjustment. As in, when I taunt, I put my D&D down, when he taunts, he puts his consecration down. Also, that means, when I am taunting, his consecration should not be down, and vice versa.
    Last edited by topapagaramonde; 2013-03-18 at 07:06 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    I have some ideas that you may be interested in.
    1) Glyph DRW. Save it and enough RP before you taunt. Hopefully that will make things better right away but I personally don't think it's a good choice for long turn.
    OP, do pretty much everything that everyone mentioned already... Except for this guys 1. point! Do NOT glyph DRW! To quote the Elitist Jerks Blood Tanking thread...

    "Glyph of Dancing Rune Weapon Oh boy. I really loathe to put things in such absolute terms but I feel this glyph deserves it: Do not spec it. Ever. It is a trap glyph.
    The 60 RP cost on DRW alone prevents us from using it as a threat CD to begin with and once you have built up 60 RP you also have enough Vengeance to hold aggro without it. So what does that leave us with? Mob spawns during the encounter that you can bank the 60 RP for? But if you have the foresight to bank 60 RP to begin with, you would also be able to save a Rune for DnD and/or Blood Boil anyway.
    Really, there is no reason to use this glyph."

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Forgettable View Post
    OP, do pretty much everything that everyone mentioned already... Except for this guys 1. point! Do NOT glyph DRW! To quote the Elitist Jerks Blood Tanking thread...

    "Glyph of Dancing Rune Weapon Oh boy. I really loathe to put things in such absolute terms but I feel this glyph deserves it: Do not spec it. Ever. It is a trap glyph.
    The 60 RP cost on DRW alone prevents us from using it as a threat CD to begin with and once you have built up 60 RP you also have enough Vengeance to hold aggro without it. So what does that leave us with? Mob spawns during the encounter that you can bank the 60 RP for? But if you have the foresight to bank 60 RP to begin with, you would also be able to save a Rune for DnD and/or Blood Boil anyway.
    Really, there is no reason to use this glyph."
    Did you even read what your quote said, or did you even read what the poster said, or did you even read what I said? You just want to criticize others who point out something different don't you? Not to mention your "reference" didn't even think about the situation when it becomes useful. I don't know why you treat others' words as Bible. I'm never used this glyph ever but I'm aware of when it becomes viable.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-18 at 02:19 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by topapagaramonde View Post
    Ya, I was not using blood tap so will be trying that out, along with the forging strat I posted above. The only thing I can think of that is wrong with my rotation would be not putting down D&D often enough, I normally don't unless its AoE since I can use those runes for DS. The other tank has a habit of putting down consecration on CD. I am gonna try working with him and both of us are going to have to make a rotation adjustment. As in, when I taunt, I put my D&D down, when he taunts, he puts his consecration down. Also, that means, when I am taunting, his consecration should not be down, and vice versa.
    These are the things I could think of. Would be great if they can help.

    And I just think of one thing. I remember pally has some abilities that could drop threat. You might want talk to your pally see if he can use it at the right points, without lower his own dps.
    Last edited by jasonleekungfu; 2013-03-18 at 07:24 PM.

  10. #10
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    Your pally could cast hand of Salvation on himself to help reduce his own threat

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    Did you even read what your quote said, or did you even read what the poster said, or did you even read what I said? You just want to criticize others who point out something different don't you? Not to mention your "reference" didn't even think about the situation when it becomes useful. I don't know why you treat others' words as Bible. I'm never used this glyph ever but I'm aware of when it becomes viable.
    Sorry but I'm gonna have to agree with Forgettable. The glyph is pretty much never worth it. Snap AoE threat where even the normal DRW's Blood Boils aren't sufficient is the only time I might use it.
    DRW already does massive amounts of threat. Pop DRW as you taunt, get a few hits in (for vengeance and also because DRW is slow as hell to get on a target), and then Outbreak. With two sets of diseases rolling and doing bunches of extra damage you shouldn't really have much issue with aggro over anyone.
    The glyph just uses a sledgehammer in place of a flyswatter in terms of aggro. It's way over the top; you'll never need that much.

    That's assuming you're going to use DRW for dps instead of defensively. If you don't then the glyph doesn't apply anyways.

    Quote Originally Posted by jasonleekungfu View Post
    It hurts not only my dps, but my surviving too because I couldn't have enough chi or brew, but I had no choice otherwise I'll fail my whole group.
    At that point I'd recommend just clicking off your vengeance buff... you can do more dps without vengeance than you can /stopattacking, plus you can still build up resources.
    Last edited by Kiqjaq; 2013-03-19 at 07:57 AM.

  12. #12
    Ok, sorry it took so long to reply but the advice seems to have worked out. I have always had a bad habit of starting to tank with DS first, which hurt my threat issues. After adjusting my rotation and switching to Blood tap on fights where tanks taunt off of each other, things have settled down a lot. Thanks guys, appreciate the advice.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiqjaq View Post
    DRW already does massive amounts of threat. Pop DRW as you taunt, get a few hits in (for vengeance and also because DRW is slow as hell to get on a target), and then Outbreak. With two sets of diseases rolling and doing bunches of extra damage you shouldn't really have much issue with aggro over anyone.
    The glyph just uses a sledgehammer in place of a flyswatter in terms of aggro. It's way over the top; you'll never need that much.
    Except that DRW doesn't add it's damage dealt to your threat but to it's own ~_~
    Armories:
    Pally: Chiaki
    Dk: Telare
    Warrior: Irlida

  14. #14
    That post from EJ was before they nerfed our threat generation, it's pretty outdated as there are times when it is useful.

    My prot paly turns of RF, it has helped a lot

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