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  1. #1

    Hotw or nv for boomers?

    As the title says im curious if hotw or nv is the current best choice for balance druids since i saw some of the top boomers using hotw and its either because their group needs the offhealing or because they gain more dps from it and im not sure wich of those is the case.

  2. #2
    There was a thread about this a while back, basically the mass decided to go with HOTW over NV, and to use NV for fights with damage amplifiers such as Tortos.

    The healing generated by Hotw is brilliant for encounters with intense AoE damage phases.

    Here's the old thread i was referring to http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...ge-amp-fights)

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by seutoxze View Post
    As the title says im curious if hotw or nv is the current best choice for balance druids since i saw some of the top boomers using hotw and its either because their group needs the offhealing or because they gain more dps from it and im not sure wich of those is the case.
    NV lost too much power from the nerf. The only time I used it in T15 is Primordius when Mutated because pure damage increase buffs stuck multiplicative. Should probably have used it on Horridon too but I forgot this reset...

  4. #4
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Again @ Juvenus NV is fairly sick on Jin'rokh whilst in the puddle, I've been bursting for 700k dps. I don't think Horridon has a multiplier, but it is a multi target fight, so believe HOTW pulls ahead.

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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    Again @ Juvenus NV is fairly sick on Jin'rokh whilst in the puddle, I've been bursting for 700k dps. I don't think Horridon has a multiplier, but it is a multi target fight, so believe HOTW pulls ahead.
    Horridon takes increased damage when you ram the big doors.

    It's on him for the whole fight though, so I'm sure HOTW is still better.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    Horridon takes increased damage when you ram the big doors.

    It's on him for the whole fight though, so I'm sure HOTW is still better.
    That's the point. Being there all the time means it's there for all NV triggers (even though I still use HotW for multidotting). While on Tordos I prefer HotW for the same reason, that you don't have it all the time.

    @xtramuscle Yeah Jin'rokh most definitely, forgot about him :P

  7. #7
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    My experiences agree with the others - NV for Jin'rokh, Horridon and Primordius, HotW for the others. HotW-Tranquility is just too damn useful against raidwide damage.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystikal View Post
    HotW-Tranquility is just too damn useful against raidwide damage.
    Your argument is wrong there buddy, think it through.

  9. #9
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    I wanted to post in the previous thread, but I ended up deleting my post because I was confusing myself.

    Basically, I wanted to compare NV and HotW in terms of average damage mod, and see at what variable DamMod would make the two equal. I first tried testing this with multiplying out each of the modifiers present on our rotation, and averaging them out in terms of DamMod. This method was flawed from the beginning, though, because I didn't account for quite a lot of things, like assuming starfireDPS = wrathDPS, etc..

    Instead, today I decided to multiply in my own variable DamModSlip into the WrathCalcs Rotation page, depending on two scenarios. I wanted to see, first off, which talent would be better where the damage modifier is up 100% of the time, and where the modifer is only active while NV is up. My results are detailed below.

    Damage Modifier Uptime: 100%

    Cells in Rotation page being multiplied/changed - D34:G39, D64, D74, D75.

    To make sure I was multiplying the right cells, this was easy enough to do - if all damage is multiplied by the damage mod at all times, then we should see a linear increase in our DPS reported by WrathCalcs. To ensure integrity for this model, I tabulated this data before the real testing.

    1.0x 1.1x 1.5x 2.0x 5.0x
    DPS reported 195451.07 214996.18 293176.61 390902.14 977255.35
    % difference 0% 10% 50% 100% 400%

    So this conclusively showed the multiplier for 100% uptime was working correctly. As I did this, I also looked at the % difference between HotW and NV at these various multipliers.

    1.0x 1.1x 1.5x 2.0x 5.0x
    HotW 195451.07 214996.18 293176.61 390902.14 977255.35
    NV 192426.42 211669.06 288639.62 384852.83 962132.08
    % difference 1.57185% 1.57185% 1.57185% 1.57185% 1.57185%

    I've been thinking for a while now that this conclusion seems logical. When you've got a modifier up 100% of the time, NV will benefit more surely during its duration, but HotW will benefit for longer, and that's the key aspect here. Funny enough, it keeps as a linear modifier at this point.

    Fights with close to full uptime on modifiers include Elegon, Jin'rohk - I haven't seen past Durumu yet but those two are pretty obvious.

    So now that we have our maximum gap between the two talents with respect to a damage modifier, let's alter our model so that it only affects the time period when NV is active. Hopefully, this will show NV increasing faster than HotW.

    Damage Modifier Uptime: NV period only

    Cells in Rotation page being multiplied/changed - new cell, "Damage Mod," added in the same way that NV is added to the total Cooldown damage. NV code copied, added "+D55" after "30*D41" to model the extra damage from stacking NV and the cooldown, much in the same way Incarnation is. Added this new Damage Mod cell into D60 (total Cooldown damage).

    This one took me quite a while to figure out. I originally did not add "+D55" into the Damage Mod cell, and found HotW was actually getting further away from NV. I then realised that I had not taken into account the additional damage the damage modifier would amplify on NV's damage. Once I added that in, things made a lot more sense, and seem quite logical. I didn't add in the multiplier to Stormlash totem this time, as this would just be negligible damage, and not necessarily will you have a Shaman in your group.

    First, like in the previous test, I made sure the numbers coming out made logical sense. Since this is a buff active 1/3 of the time (in-line with NV), we should see DPS increases of ~33% the stated value of the multiplier, however, we expect them to be slightly higher than this as we know cooldown stacking improves overall effectiveness. Since the multiplier is not active all the time, I tested it for both talent alternatives.

    1.0x 1.1x 1.5x 2.0x 5.0x
    DPS (HotW) 195451.07 202123.42 228812.82 262174.56 462345.03
    % difference 0% 3.414% 17.07% 34.14% 136.55%
    % of modifier N/A 34.14% 34.14% 34.14% 34.14%

    1.0x 1.1x 1.5x 2.0x 5.0x
    DPS (NV) 192426.42 199416.41 227376.40 262326.39 472026.32
    % difference 0% 3.633% 18.16% 36.33% 145.30%
    % of modifier N/A 36.33% 36.33% 36.33% 36.33%

    What these tables show are twofold: they keep with the general idea that cooldowns benefit each other, and because NV is a stronger damage modifier when used in conjunction with our variable modifier, it benefits more from them being used together. Thus, we get to our final table.

    1.0x 1.1x 1.5x 2.0x 5.0x
    HotW 195451.07 202123.42 228812.82 262174.56 462345.03
    NV 192426.42 199416.41 227376.40 262326.39 472026.32
    % difference 1.57185% 1.35747% 0.63174% -0.05788% -2.05101%

    From the table, you can see that NV starts to beat out HotW at ~100% damage mod. It's important to note that this is apparent when the damage modifier is only active during NV, but gives us the framework for our deductions. Shorthand for these points is: damage mod = damage modifier of the fight, active time = active time of the damage mod, assumed to be lined up with NV/other CDs.

    1. If damage mod < 100%, HotW > NV for any active time
    2. If damage mod >= 100% and active time <= 33%, NV > HotW
    3. If active time > 33% but < 100%, depends on damage mod

    Reasoning: we have modelled two scenarios, where active time = 100% and 33%, respectively. This showed us that, when active time is near or equal to 100% uptime, the % difference between the two talents remained constant. When we favoured NV entirely with a 33% uptime on our damage mod, we then saw a point where the two talents intersected. It reasons that when the active time is between these bounds, the damage mod must be higher than 100% for the two talents to intersect again. It also stands to reason that if active time is less than 33%, the damage modifier is not even up for the total duration of NV, and therefore the two talents should still gain proportionately.

    Thus, a 100% damage modifier is a baseline requirement for NV to beat HotW at any active time. If active time exceeds 33%, then you will require a larger damage modifier than 100% to counteract the additional benefit to HotW that NV does not receive. Since the only fight I know of that features a damage mod higher than 100% is Elegon, and Horridon to an extent (200% by the end of the fight), we can be fairly safe in assuming that damage mod <= 100%.

    As I haven't gone through all the fights in ToT, I can't say for certain which of these fights falls into each category. Also note that WrathCalcs doesn't include things like Warrior banner, potions or other raidwide damage modifying cooldowns (besides Bloodlust) being stacked with our cooldown phase. Regardless, considering how unlikely it is to line up NV exactly with a damage modifier that exists only during NV, and have that multiplier be >= 100%, it doesn't seem like NV will be used much, if at all... maybe for its healing capabilities, though. HotW seems like a much more stable alternative that still acts as a modifier itself. Note that even if the damage modifier exists only during NV, if it isn't at least a 100% multiplier, HotW is still better.

    Please critique this and spark some debate. I'd like to hear what everyone thinks of this representation, and I by no means claim it to be exact or perfect. I'm also going to see what Hamlet/Tec/the EJ guys think of it.

  10. #10
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    Natures vigil is a to small damage boost to really make big difference on amplified fights even. How ever, when you are raiding progress and your healers are having trouble keeping up with the damage, picking up natures vigil might be a very helpfull choice.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Joeri2 View Post
    Natures vigil is a to small damage boost to really make big difference on amplified fights even. How ever, when you are raiding progress and your healers are having trouble keeping up with the damage, picking up natures vigil might be a very helpfull choice.
    I think you could say the same for HotW, i kept our raid alive multiple times where both our healers fell, up to 30% boss health and we managed to kill the boss because i could press HotW and heal.

    On the few fights i have tried NV, mostly the dmg mod bosses, i haven't been impressed. We burst less now but gained a nice steady dmg boost with HotW. I like it

  12. #12
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    I tried NV for Megaera since our healers seemed to be struggling with the red head up but, without Incarnation active, the healing it put out just wasn't enough. Being able to pretty much solo-heal the final Rampage with HotW-Tranquility is far more useful to the healers, I feel. The extra HP you personally get from speccing HotW cannot be understated either.

    Slippykins' maths above basically reinforces what I've been personally experiencing in ToT so far, that HotW is pretty much always going to be the winner.
    Last edited by Mystikal; 2013-03-20 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Spelling

  13. #13
    Natures vigil works well on fights with increased damage taken because your healing from your DPS done can help out the raid a lot at certain spikes

    Heart of the wild allows you to switch roles to more effective version of whatever you have in the raid and gives a flat damage boost rather than on cooldown.

    Are your healers struggling during any parts of the raid where your extra healing will be the difference between killing a boss, or not. If yes, HOTW, Pop when shit gets troublesome, heal better than them, for 45 seconds and claim loot

    Are your healers having no trouble at any parts? If not then NV will be much on bosses that take increased damage but HOTW will give you better overall DPS but not really by much

    Also, people make mistakes, maybe your healer pressed their big AoE heal too soon and you going superhealer and pressing TRANQ will mean killing the boss, but NV seems to me to just be an extra burst and actually rather good survivability cooldown now that the way healing from damage works in PvP

    TL;DR HOTW will provide more panic buttons, tank dies? Nope. Healers struggling? Nope. NV for PvP and VERY niche fights, HOTW otherwise.

  14. #14
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    Just stating the obvious: while both NV and HotW+Tranq both heal the raid, usually you use NV for DPS but you only use HotW+Tranq for healing. From a healing PoV, NV provides small amounts of healing at random moments while HotW+Tranq provides a strong healing CD that is probably more useful in the majority of the cases.

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuscarora View Post
    Just stating the obvious: while both NV and HotW+Tranq both heal the raid, usually you use NV for DPS but you only use HotW+Tranq for healing. From a healing PoV, NV provides small amounts of healing at random moments while HotW+Tranq provides a strong healing CD that is probably more useful in the majority of the cases.
    This is correct, typically NV only over heals, as lets face it, during times when we blow all offensive cooldowns, even the healers dps; which would suggest its not a damage intensive phase..

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 04:52 PM ----------

    @Slippy are you saying that despite we all feel NV is OP on Zinro'kh math actually says HOTW would still be better o.O

    Vexxe of Old School.



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  16. #16
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    This is correct, typically NV only over heals, as lets face it, during times when we blow all offensive cooldowns, even the healers dps; which would suggest its not a damage intensive phase..

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 04:52 PM ----------

    @Slippy are you saying that despite we all feel NV is OP on Zinro'kh math actually says HOTW would still be better o.O
    Yeah, Jin'rokh is only a 40% damage increase, and it's up for most of the fight. While NV will benefit more during its duration from the pool's amplifying damage, HotW benefits for a much longer period of time, and that's really where the difference is. And since it's only 40%, the boost it gives to NV is noticeable, but not enough. You would see a higher burst in the beginning of the fight, however, it would dip faster compared to a sustained HotW curve.

  17. #17
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Yeah, Jin'rokh is only a 40% damage increase, and it's up for most of the fight. While NV will benefit more during its duration from the pool's amplifying damage, HotW benefits for a much longer period of time, and that's really where the difference is. And since it's only 40%, the boost it gives to NV is noticeable, but not enough. You would see a higher burst in the beginning of the fight, however, it would dip faster compared to a sustained HotW curve.
    Could be onto something there! I did LFR this morning and did a not-so-shabby 168k DPS on Zin'rokh, just tried it again now with HOTW and smashed it with 187k DPS.

    +1 Mr Slippykins.

    Vexxe of Old School.



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  18. #18
    Moderator Slippykins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xtramuscle View Post
    Could be onto something there! I did LFR this morning and did a not-so-shabby 168k DPS on Zin'rokh, just tried it again now with HOTW and smashed it with 187k DPS.

    +1 Mr Slippykins.
    Most of that would be RNG, but on average you should see 2-3k DPS difference between the two choices. NV is also devalued when you don't press the cooldown as soon as it comes up, same deal with Incarnation, whereas HotW is passively active at all times.

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral xtramuscle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slippykins View Post
    Most of that would be RNG, but on average you should see 2-3k DPS difference between the two choices. NV is also devalued when you don't press the cooldown as soon as it comes up, same deal with Incarnation, whereas HotW is passively active at all times.
    Probably, looking forward to HC tonight though

    Vexxe of Old School.



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  20. #20
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    I was pretty unimpressed with NV for our Jin`Rokh heroic kill this week. There is so much movement required for that fight I don't feel it's worth it to try to use NV, HoTW definitely produced better results for me. Horridon heroic feels the same way, I definitely felt like I was putting up better numbers using HoTW again over NV.

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