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  1. #1
    Mechagnome Cathias's Avatar
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    Treckie, Absalom & Fraggoji

    Right, so Ive decided to come back wow after a two month break and as a protection paladin I decided to look up on Treckie Fraggoji and Absalom, I noticed how they all use completely different gems & reforges, doesnt anyone have any information on why they do this & what is currently "the best" for my gear. http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...lderi/advanced

    Notice that I am purely in Tier 14 & heroic raiding pieces.

    Treckie: Treckie seems to spread his gemming around haste & stamina, while keeping his hit and expertise at the cap. He doesnt have a single "pure" haste gem & every gem he uses has +stamina.(going from a hybrid X & stam gem to pure stam)

    Reforging(Treckie): Looking through his reforges, he seems to focus purely on the hit & expertise cap and then aim for as much haste reforging as possible.

    Absalom: Absalom doesnt seem too bothered about haste & mainly aims for mastery & Stamina, his gemming is spread around, Mastery, Hit & expertise and Stamina.

    Reforging(Absalom): He seems to reforge around balancing his dodge parry & mastery, once again, having haste as a low prio.

    Fraggoji: Fraggoji seems to be focusing mainly on Haste, he seems to have it as a higher priority than Stamina, and the other stats, Most his gems are pure 320+ haste gems & he doesnt seem to have a single pure stamina gem, in fact, every gem he uses has atleast 160+ haste.

    Reforging(Fraggoji): Fraggoji seems to reforge purely around haste & expertise, it looks like he is ignoring the balance of dodge & parry(8% dodge 20% parry).

    I apologize for the misleading title, looking at it after a while made me realise how misleading it was, Sorry!
    Last edited by Cathias; 2013-03-18 at 05:14 PM. Reason: Apology

  2. #2
    Both haste and mastery builds (after hit/exp capping) are viable. The mastery build gives you more DR when you use SHoR where as the haste build gives more uptime on the SHoR buff resulting in a more linear damage intake.

    The haste build also provides more tank DPS (matters more in 10 mens) while 25 men tanks like more stamina (bosses hit much harder).

  3. #3
    Stamina is a viable option for bleeding edge progression, given tank damage on the later bosses in TOT heroic.
    Mastery is a slight-moderate loss in dps for a moderate gain in survival via ShotR power.
    Haste is still a viable option for increasing DPS/HPS, but you will take more damage overall than a mastery build.

    TL;DR - Different players/guilds/comps/strats require different things from their tanks. I would not read into or blindly copy ANYONE's build/priorities in top guilds during the race, as they can vary wildly from fight to fight, or even edit their sets before logging to "throw off the competition".

    Given your gear level, I am assuming that you're not going to be pushing T15 heroics right away. If that is the case, there are 2 paths for you to take, depending on goals (this is assuming 10man):
    1) Clearing t14: focus on getting to exp/hit cap, then stack haste. Will give you good overall DPS output, HPS output, and good ShotR uptime.
    2) Working on t15: Again get to exp/hit cap, but look to stam/mastery, as you will be quite undergeared and anything after JinRohk may be rough on you. Can switch to more haste as you get gear/experience on the fights, but stam/mastery will help your EH and survival while only costing minor DPS/HPS contributions.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Giev View Post
    Both haste and mastery builds (after hit/exp capping) are viable. The mastery build gives you more DR when you use SHoR where as the haste build gives more uptime on the SHoR buff resulting in a more linear damage intake.
    Haste provides more linear damage reduction.
    Mastery provides more linear damage taken.

    Huge difference.


    @OP

    You should not really look at the top tanks. They have their reasons for gearing as they do, as you should have your reasons to gear like you do.

    It is viable to gear both for mastery/haste/stamina as your primary stat.
    It is viable to both cap and not cap expertise

    In the end, how you gear is up do you.

    If you raid 10 man I would advice you to gem and reforge for hit, exp, haste.
    If you raid 25 man, I would advice you a bit more towards the stamina/mastery route, but haste is also viable in 25's.

    Tanking is not as simple to theorycraft as dpsing and healing. There is no 1 right answer.

    The best thing is that you yourself understand what different stats do, and why to go for different stats in some circumstances.

    And to press again, do not look at the top guilds tanks. That is one of the most silly things you can do.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-18 at 06:31 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  5. #5
    Blademaster Prokk's Avatar
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    Control/Haste builds,(hit/exp hard capped with haste) are used in both 10m and 25m. The damage is a little higher but smoother since you have a much higher uptime on SoTR. This eliminates most damage spikes. With the T15 4pc and Divine Purpose talented, you will benefit a lot more from SoTR from it.

    With Control/Mastery builds, they can still be viable, but since your SoTR uptime is almost 15% less than a control/haste build, you will see more frequent spikes in between.

    Either one works well and it just depends on your playstyle.
    Last edited by Prokk; 2013-03-18 at 06:38 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Prokk View Post
    Control/Haste builds,(hit/exp hard capped with haste) are used in both 10m and 25m. The damage is a little higher but smoother since you have a much higher uptime on SoTR. This eliminates most damage spikes. With the T15 4pc and Divine Purpose talented, you will benefit a lot more from SoTR from it.

    With Control/Mastery builds, they can still be viable, but since your SoTR uptime is almost 15% less than a control/haste build, you will see more frequent spikes in between.

    Either one works well and it just depends onyour playstyle.
    Unless he's raiding 25s, and there are a plethora of conq tokens that will otherwise rot, he's best to avoid trying to get 4pc. You could aim for Head/Shoulders as a 2pc, but both 2 and 4pc are underwhelimg and most of the set is poorly itemized (read: Avoidance stats). You're much better off getting accuracy/haste/mastery off pieces instead and passing tier tokens to your DPS or healers.

    Also DP is pretty lackluster versus HA or SW in most any situation, provided you use the latter options intelligently. Not to say it's inherently worse or a bad choice, but it's not one that I'd use.

    Rest of your points about ShotR uptime vs. power are accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    text
    Get an avatar, now.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #8
    Old God MerinPally's Avatar
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    Don't copy people who are pushing for world first progression. They will not necessarily be gearing in a way that is conducive to what the normal person will want. Example being T11 when the top tanks stacked stam so people copied, because they didn't need CTC but us lot did - copying them was a mistake that people made. Analyze the stats and guides yourself and decide what you need to get the best out of yourself for your raid.

    And I agree, Nairobi get an avatar, preferably a small african child.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Get an avatar, now.
    Quote Originally Posted by MerinPally View Post
    And I agree, Nairobi get an avatar, preferably a small african child.
    I've never taken the time to figure out how to create/attach one. But Merin, I've got the perfect idea now...
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  10. #10
    Blademaster Prokk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    Unless he's raiding 25s, and there are a plethora of conq tokens that will otherwise rot, he's best to avoid trying to get 4pc. You could aim for Head/Shoulders as a 2pc, but both 2 and 4pc are underwhelimg and most of the set is poorly itemized (read: Avoidance stats). You're much better off getting accuracy/haste/mastery off pieces instead and passing tier tokens to your DPS or healers.

    Also DP is pretty lackluster versus HA or SW in most any situation, provided you use the latter options intelligently. Not to say it's inherently worse or a bad choice, but it's not one that I'd use.

    Rest of your points about ShotR uptime vs. power are accurate.
    If he is raiding 10m, then yes I would agree to avoide the tokens until they dig further into the heroics. ON a 25m level, the 4pc looks good on paper and after testing it on PTR for a while, it is very strong. However, this could change since I've yet to achieve a 4pc on live. In the meantime, I would also suggest going for haste/mastery pieces. Hope you don't have a ret paladin/ warrior in your raid .

  11. #11
    Fraggoji raids 10m where individual DPS of a tank is relatively much more important than in 25m. I'm sure that's part if not all of the reason he values stam so poorly relative haste.

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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by aggixx View Post
    Fraggoji raids 10m where individual DPS of a tank is relatively much more important than in 25m. I'm sure that's part if not all of the reason he values stam so poorly relative haste.
    Yeah, but his rotation is horrible so he does not do high dps either way.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Yeah, but his rotation is horrible so he does not do high dps either way.
    can you please elaborate on if you really mean rotation or if you are talking about DPS priority for prot pala? Is there some magic haste number that lets us follow a rotation (assuming surv/SOTR timing is not an issue)?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by shambam View Post
    can you please elaborate on if you really mean rotation or if you are talking about DPS priority for prot pala? Is there some magic haste number that lets us follow a rotation (assuming surv/SOTR timing is not an issue)?
    I actually refer to rotation. Check their Empress HC kill video which is his point of view.

    It is embarassing to say the least. Lets say like this, if he was playing dps he would be benched permanently.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  15. #15
    Bloodsail Admiral Splosion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I actually refer to rotation. Check their Empress HC kill video which is his point of view.

    It is embarassing to say the least. Lets say like this, if he was playing dps he would be benched permanently.
    Fragie was paragon's highest DPS rogue during t13 ;P

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Splosion View Post
    Fragie was paragon's highest DPS rogue during t13 ;P
    Well, then he knows rogue 100x better than he know paladin.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  17. #17

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeActionTess View Post
    http://sacredduty.net/2013/02/28/pat...s-simulations/

    Sums it up pretty nicely in my opinion
    Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

    <Keep posts productive and on topic, please!>
    Last edited by Krekko; 2013-03-19 at 04:57 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  19. #19
    Remember that haste is not a mitigation stat. Its value as a TDR stat is pretty miserable.

    That said:

    In 10 man raiding, stamina takes a back seat, and Mastery and Haste are, with regards to damage intake reduction, about equal. Haste wins, however, because it also increases your DPS significantly.
    When you switch to 25 man, bosses hit rather harder, leading to Stamina becoming more important. See above for why I take Haste as my second stat.
    If you are currently raiding T15 10H or 25H content, I'd hope that you wouldn't need telling what to do

    I play 25 man. Like Theck and Treckie, I value Stamina quite highly. Unlike Treckie, I am not currently progressing on the last two bosses in heroic ToT (currently progressing on Durumu), which is why I have hybrid stamina/haste gems and not just straight stamina. When I get closer to not being undergeared for the content I'll move back to a more haste centered approach (because I like the faster rotation) which will involve swapping my weaker stamina trinket for a haste one, and possible swapping gems around.
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  20. #20
    I am Murloc! Huntingbear_grimbatol's Avatar
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    Tanking has become much more about fitting your raid and tank role than being a correct "best way" to do it.
    If you're tanking big hits, getting hp will give you more room for your healers to heal. Getting more haste will be better for faster hitting bosses or fights with raidwide physical damages. Mastery is strong for slow, hard hitting bosses. Now it's been a while since I actually looked closely on these things so they might've changed, but the point is that you don't gem and enchant a tank to the "correct" point, you play it correctly according to your raid (healers and fight mechanics mainly).

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