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  1. #21
    Stood in the Fire Winkle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExtremeActionTess View Post
    http://sacredduty.net/2013/02/28/pat...s-simulations/

    Sums it up pretty nicely in my opinion
    If you're looking for prot pala advice/gearing strategy this should always be your first port of call.

    The short and sweet:
    Stam - never bad
    Haste - Damage smoothing + dps
    Mastery - Good for reducing spike dmg via sotr, think HC Sha.

  2. #22
    Titan MerinPally's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nairobi View Post
    I've never taken the time to figure out how to create/attach one. But Merin, I've got the perfect idea now...
    We're still waiting. Fucking hell bro, hell will freeze over first at this rate!
    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nicus/advanced
    Quote Originally Posted by Valarius View Post
    Oh shut the fuck up you spack cunt.

  3. #23
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.

  4. #24
    Personally, the only thing I value extra stamina past around 650k raid buffed is for a higher vengeance stack. However, I am not a cutting edge raider, I do not raid progression, but I do rank top 10 on nearly every fight, both as brewmaster monk and prot paladin.

    At this point right now, on my paladin EXTREMELY rarely do I ever get past 20% vengeance stack, as a percentage of total health. This tells me two things, I am taking very little damage, and that my health is so high, I probably won't ever see another 100% vengeance cap this tier (i did on heroic windlord).

    Do not take what you see in the reforging/playstyle of the "best" tanks in the top progression guilds. The best way to describe them would not be as the pinnacle of the playerbase, but more the best collection of 25 people who can tolerate wiping on a boss up to fifty times before getting a kill.

    Gemming for dodge/parry is a complete mistake, they offer the lowest stat per point of all of our reforgeable stats, and in the grand scheme of things are not relevant to the Protection Paladin play style.

    Hit 7.5%>EXP 15%>Haste>Mastery is what should be put into every Protection Paladin's reforgelite addon. Getting the gear set that has the most of these stats should be your priority. Anything else is quite honestly not optimal. By saying that it's "an OK alternative to go mastery" is a little deceiving, it Isn't, and there is a growing consensus confirming it. Until they nerf sanctity of battle entirely, the stat priority will remain as it is above.

    My BiS list for Throne of Thunder, not counting heroic/thunderforged items.

    HELM HAUNTED STEEL GREATHELM BOE BLACKSMITH
    NECK STRIKER'S BATTLETAGS 1250 VP
    SHOULER RECONSTRUCTED FURIOUS SHOULDERPLATES TRASH DROP (ALL BOSSES)
    BACK SPIKESHARD GREATCLOAK HONORED 1250 VP
    CHEST RET T15 CHESTPIECE DARK ANIMUS
    WRIST BRACERS OF CONSTANT IMPLOSION (HASTE) JINROKH THE BREAKER
    WEAPON DO-THARAK, THE SWORDBREAKER PRIMORDIUS
    OFFHAND GREATSHIELD OF THE GLOAMING PRIMORDIUS
    HANDS PATHOGENIC GAUNTLETS PRIMORDIUS
    WAIST CLOUDBREAKER GREATBELT JIN'ROKH THE BREAKER
    LEGS LEGPLATES OF THE DARK PARASITE DURUMU THE FORGOTTEN
    FEET HAUNTED STEEL TREADS BOE BLACKSMITH
    RING 1 BAND OF THE SHADOPAN ASSAULT 1250 VP
    RING 2 BAND OF THE SCALED TYRANT PRIMORDIUS
    TRINK 1 SPARK OF ZANDALAR HORRIDON
    TRINK 2 BRUTAL TALISMAN OF THE SHADPAN ASSAULT 1750VP

    You will notice I am abandoning the protection 4pc entirely, yes, I am. The 2pc is absolutely worthless to me, I rarely am in a position where I must cast word of glory, and when I do it's as a dire emergency. As a Protection Paladin, my damage intake is already the most smooth and predictable of all the classes, I have not encountered a fight where I would need more damage reduction to stay alive, and I didn't see one in t14 either. The 4pc is laughable. The loss of relevant stats is not worth gaining either bonus.
    Last edited by djtravitrav; 2013-03-20 at 06:59 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    Hit 7.5%>EXP 15%>Haste>Mastery is what should be put into every Protection Paladin's reforgelite addon. Getting the gear set that has the most of these stats should be your priority. Anything else is quite honestly not optimal. By saying that it's "an OK alternative to go mastery" is a little deceiving, it Isn't, and there is a growing consensus confirming it. Until they nerf sanctity of battle entirely, the stat priority will remain as it is above.
    I must say I disagree. With multiple things. First of, there are not just 1 way to gear. So I do not agree that should be put into every reforge addon.

    There is the question of gemming (which a lot of reforge addons include), should you gem for stamina or secondary stats?
    Also, expertise cap is not as valuable as most people believe. Not even for the dps purpose. My gear is far fram optimal. I actually looted a dodge piece today
    My only piece with dodge on it! So now I am sitting at 0 parry and 570 dodge poor me, need to work on replacing it but it was a 23 ilvl upgrade so had to take it!
    I also still have some intellect gear on me due to just horrid loot. Seriously, never drop tank gear, so my item level has been below 500, around 496~

    I am sitting on just above 11 expertise (dropped from 11.35 to 11.15 expertise with the upgrades today), and I completely disagree that expertise is a must cap stat.

    With this low item level and not expertise cap, I got one rank 1 (rank 1 for all classes and specs), rank 2 for paladin, and rank 3 for paladin on three of the 5 fights we killed today before having to disband the raid prematurely.

    So I do not really get this need to cap expertise. It is not at strong as people believe for dps. And it is actually not strong at all for survivability.
    I prefer just having it above 7.5 for reliablity, but anywhere between 7.5 and 15, I couldn't care less.

    My own priority is hit>exp7.5>haste>exp15>mastery>crit>dodge>parry.

    Which brings to the second thing you said, going mastery is not viable? Of course it is. Mastery is by far the best secondary stat for survivability. If you need survivability, then by all means go it.

    That said, a lot of tanks including myself feel like we got enough survivability, and if you can survive a fight, DPS becomes the only issue left, which mastery provides none. This is why most tank (atleast those that know their class) stack haste, for the dps, the added sotr uptime and heals is just a +. But DPS is the main point. If tank damage was a lot higher, especially in 10 man, we would see a lot more mastery stackers, including myself.

    I myself stack haste as I said, but I can still see and understand that mastery is very viable. Mastery tanking is another style of tank though. If you are having problem surviving bosses, there is nothing wrong with going for more mastery over haste.

    Edit: Also, saying that there is a growing consensus confirming something, is not so accurate in wow.
    Wow players are sheeps. Most often the flock of sheeps are wrong, or while not wrong, not correct either.

    Just look at how long people was ignoring CTC cap in Cata.
    Then people started claming that after CTC cap it was better to gem for dodge/parry than stamina (lol)
    Look how long it took for people in MoP to understand haste was viable.
    People in MoP still have not understood the value of LAotL and SW.
    Most people still do not understand the value of GID. Not that it is as valuable this tier obviously, but last tier it was unarguably BiS except for stamina trinket purposes. Just yesterday I joked around in LFR and met 2 paladin tanks, one was using the LFR version of Vial and the other normal version Vial. I just facepalmed so hard upon seeing that. And even into this tier, for anyone not with heroic 2/2 trinkets from last tier, GID is very valuable. Much stronger than almost every LFR trinket and in my opinion stronger than most of the normal trinkets aswell. Only normal thunderforged and heroic trinkets are strong competitors to GID.

    In short, don't trust the flock of sheeps, trust yourself and think for yourself and you shall receive the biggest results.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-20 at 11:29 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  6. #26
    Just look at how long people was ignoring CTC cap in Cata.
    Only because it wasn't viable to stack enough mastery to obtain it until late T11 to mid T12 depending on how many heroic bosses you killed.

    Then people started claming that after CTC cap it was better to gem for dodge/parry than stamina (lol)
    And they were wrong. I don't know any paladins in a position to make statements like "dodge and parry are better" that were claiming to go for dodge and parry over stamina.

    Look how long it took for people in MoP to understand haste was viable.
    Just saying, Theck, Klaudandus and I were already discussing haste's value while doing the testing for the matlab model back in Spring 2012
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  7. #27
    I was referring to the larger spectrum of the paladin community, not individual persons. As the earlier poster referred to a "growing consensus".

    Also, Theck and others was discussing haste as a possibility, but more as an oddball. An the majority of the paladin community (which was what I referred to) completely dismissed it. Some paladins understood the value of haste, but they were far from a majority. You can't argue that in early MoP, almost nobody went for haste and it was not considered viable by most in comparison to stamina+mastery.

    Also, I reached CTC cap quite early in T11 heroics. Was on almost CTC cap with some blue + early epic gear. Given I was raiding 25H at the time so had quite a lot of gear. If I remember correctly T12 had a lot more hit and expertise on the gear and less mastery so it was almost harder to CTC cap than compared to T11.

    Especially having the trinket from Lost City of the Tol'Vir together with the mastery trinket from TB, CTC cap was actually reachable quite early in T11, and if not fully capped, then very very close to.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  8. #28
    I think I was hovering around 96% in T11, just needed those extra stat points of mastery from the higher tier stuff either heroic T11 or normal T12. But then we only killed 5 or 6 heroic T11.
    Intel i5 2500K (4.5 GHz) | Asus Z77 Sabertooth | 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP 1600MHz | Gigabyte Windforcex3 HD 7950 | Crucial M4 128GB | Crucial M550 256GB | Asus Xonar DGX | Samson SR 850 | Zalman ZM-Mic1 | Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB | Noctua NH-U12P SE2 | Fractal Design Arc Midi | Corsair HX650

    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Butler Log View Post
    I think I was hovering around 96% in T11, just needed those extra stat points of mastery from the higher tier stuff either heroic T11 or normal T12. But then we only killed 5 or 6 heroic T11.
    Were you using the mastery elixir and the agility+mastery trinket from Tol'vir? That was what put me over the 102.4% limit.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  10. #30
    I honestly can't remember. I think I used the mastery elixir and the armor or magic resist one. I had the tol'barad trinket but can't remember what I paired it with.
    Intel i5 2500K (4.5 GHz) | Asus Z77 Sabertooth | 8GB Corsair Vengeance LP 1600MHz | Gigabyte Windforcex3 HD 7950 | Crucial M4 128GB | Crucial M550 256GB | Asus Xonar DGX | Samson SR 850 | Zalman ZM-Mic1 | Western Digital Caviar Blue 500GB | Noctua NH-U12P SE2 | Fractal Design Arc Midi | Corsair HX650

    Tanking with the Blessing of Kings - The TankSpot Guide to the Protection Paladin - Updated for Patch 5.4!

  11. #31
    Well, either way, the thread train as derailed. Back on topic now!

    Holy. Sacred. Divine.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  12. #32
    I'm sorry, and I'm trying to be as polite as possible about this, but in this case, if you do not go for haste, you are just straight up doing it wrong. There is no middle ground on the argument, some people would like to think there is to explain their personal play style, but there isn't. Blizzard is the one that made the error with sanctity of battle, and I imagine in coming patches they will do even more to get rid of it, but for now, haste is the #1 stat for mitigation and dps. It scales with everything we do, it even makes divine purpose more valuable.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    I'm sorry, and I'm trying to be as polite as possible about this, but in this case, if you do not go for haste, you are just straight up doing it wrong. There is no middle ground on the argument, some people would like to think there is to explain their personal play style, but there isn't. Blizzard is the one that made the error with sanctity of battle, and I imagine in coming patches they will do even more to get rid of it, but for now, haste is the #1 stat for mitigation and dps. It scales with everything we do, it even makes divine purpose more valuable.
    To say that haste scale with everything we do is a bit of overstatement.

    It does not scale with short term damage reduction.
    It does not scale with consecration
    It does not scale with T6 Talents other than prism
    It does not scale with the GCD of SS

    And to say that haste if the #1 mitigation stat, period, is blatantly wrong and close minded. It all depends on the fights, and how you determine mitigation.

    Mastery also makes divine purpose more valuable ^^

    I would love to hear an argument why haste is a stronger mitigation stat than mastery on fights like sha of fear. Now sha of fear is an extreme. Though, atleast in 10 man, the same applies to several fights in current tier. Now, mitigation is such a terrible word to use, since it has 2 meanings. I prefer to use survivability to measure defensive stats.

    Horrdion
    Council(arguably)
    Tortos
    Meagara(to some point, not as important)
    Ji-Kun
    Durumu
    Primordius
    I would have said Iron Qon but the damage is just way to low to even mention it.

    Now, the point is, that you still can survive these fights often regardless if you gem for haste, mastery or spirit.
    Though, if you are undergeared, or your healers are maybe not the best in the world, then mastery would probably help you more.

    Just playing a bit of advocatus diaboli here.
    Me myself, I use haste because I value the increased dps a lot. That does not mean that I am so narrowminded that I do not concieve mastery as a viable strategy, and even superior on most fights in terms of survivability.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-21 at 11:38 AM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    I'm sorry, and I'm trying to be as polite as possible about this, but in this case, if you do not go for haste, you are just straight up doing it wrong. There is no middle ground on the argument, some people would like to think there is to explain their personal play style, but there isn't. Blizzard is the one that made the error with sanctity of battle, and I imagine in coming patches they will do even more to get rid of it, but for now, haste is the #1 stat for mitigation and dps. It scales with everything we do, it even makes divine purpose more valuable.
    I....what? So, let me get see if I got this. You, who do not raid progression content at all, are saying that anyone who is actually tanking that content and gearing other than how you understand the game to work is incorrect? Is that about right?

    So, you've never seen this content, nor played it, but you're giving advice to people who actually have experience in that area? Bro, do you even lift? You realize that the people who are doing cutting/bleeding edge content have probably forgotten more about this game than you know, right? Look, haste is good. It's a good stat that provides a lot of tangible and visceral enhancements to our offense, defense, and playstyle. But IT IS NOT A MITIGATION STAT. The reason that people stack haste in t14 is because tank damage was laughable. All of a sudden, in t15 heroics, tank damage is a bit more meaningful, and the smart players are gearing accordingly. That means shifting to mastery until you get back into the comfort zone where you can pile haste back on.

    Mastery is our best TANK stat, haste is our best OVERALL stat. Don't confuse the 2, and please don't state your opinion as fact until you understand the difference.

    And, while I may not be the vehement SW proponent that Firefly is, I think most anyone doing progression content will give you an odd look when you mention using DivPurp as a tank over the 2 far better alternatives in HA or SW. Granted, you're not doing hard content by your own admission, so none of the top end theorycrafting really matters to you.

    And I say all of this as a haste-stacking paladin, running 11k+ haste and only ~3k mastery, doing heroic content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  15. #35
    DP is actually not that bad in 25 man. A lot of 25 man heroic tanks are using it. For some fights ofc. Though in 10 man, it is, meeeeh.

    But that is because 25 man and 10 man is fundamentally different.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  16. #36
    I should have clarified in my post; since our guild imploded/downsized from 25 to 10, most all of my viewpoint is from a 10HC tank perspective.

    DivPurp has a higher ShotR uptime than the other 2 talents, on average. But then you're getting into stochastic measures, and I just don't like leaving the most potent AM system in the game up to the cruel RNG gods. In 25, as you said, with the amount of healer throughput and external cooldowns, personal "burst" survival isn't the same priority as in 10man. However since 25s are now markedly less popular (perhaps prevalent is a better word, they're still popular but just not common...) than their 10m counterparts, I just speak to 10s for the most part.

    Good catch tho!
    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    We'll all be appropriately shocked/amazed when Nairobi actually gets an avatar, but until then, let's try to not derail the thread heckling him about it.
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    If it was that easy don't you think we would have figured that out? (Source)
    20k and counting...

  17. #37
    Also 25 man have the added danger compared to 10 man that regular boss auto attacks actually kills you. Which means that having higher coverage on regular melee attacks is a lot more important in 25 man than in 10 man. In 10 man, that additional coverage is not as useful (a lot of the reason why haste is not the strongest tanking stat in 10 man), since those added SotR, only helps cover more boss melee hits, which in 10 man, is in most cases, not even dangerous.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-03-21 at 01:26 PM.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

  18. #38
    Higher Shield of the Righteous uptime and increased dps is what haste is all about, divine purpose is the best talent of the three and scales the most with a haste build. These are simply facts, and I make the claims I make because I know they are correct. Yes, I said that.

    To address your point about specific content "Mastery also makes divine purpose more valuable." true, but not mathematically as much as haste. Mastery gives you a static bump to your shield of the righteous but lowers the amount of time your buff will actually be active throughout the fight. The way World of Warcraft combat swings are constructed, this is a far less valuable model. Bosses swing their melee attacks at you at a set frequency, it does not deviate. Bosses also hit you with their special melee attacks (such as triple puncture on horridon or snapping bite on tortos or thrash with sha of fear) on a set frequency (some deviate).

    The point being, with haste you are essentially always going to be guaranteed to have uptime during those specific spike damage events, as well as greater overall uptime to the Shield of the Righteous buff for regular melee swings. With mastery, you will have slightly higher mitigation when the buff is up, but it will be up significantly less frequently, and less likely to be active when you actually need it to be on those special attacks. Even with proper micromanaging you will start clipping holy power and wasting resources with a straight up mastery build because you have to ensure that you have 3 banked for that moment you need to activate the buff. With haste you can play much faster and looser with your holy power usage, because it is a guarantee that you will generate it at a far greater rate than with a mastery build.

    These are the reasons I say that there is one correct way to play a Protection Paladin so far in this tier. Because I do not personally raid progression, does not render my argument invalid. You act as if someone that doesn't raid progression lacks firsthand knowledge about how to do anything, quite an elitist attitude, honestly, and it's not true. I have a fine insight into how the class works and how it should function.

    To make a comparison, if I'm a first year law student and I fully understand the First Amendment and how it is applied in the United States, I have full knowledge of this topic.
    A Supreme Court justice would also fully understand the First Amendment and how it is applied in the United States, but just because they are a Supreme Court justice doesn't make them any more correct in their doctrine than I am, in fact, some would say that those in the Supreme Court have become drunk on power and have their own agendas in the way they interpret the constitution.

    So to say I don't know what I'm talking about when I have fully studied the issue, and devoted significant time to it, but haven't devoted MY LIFE to it, is just asinine.

  19. #39
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    Higher Shield of the Righteous uptime and increased dps is what haste is all about, divine purpose is the best talent of the three and scales the most with a haste build. These are simply facts, and I make the claims I make because I know they are correct. Yes, I said that.
    Fact: Haste does one thing for mitigation and the "best" stats, talents, and glyphs vary depending on fight dynamics.

    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    These are the reasons I say that there is one correct way to play a Protection Paladin so far in this tier. Because I do not personally raid progression, does not render my argument invalid. You act as if someone that doesn't raid progression lacks firsthand knowledge about how to do anything, quite an elitist attitude, honestly, and it's not true. I have a fine insight into how the class works and how it should function.
    Fact: You may think you have a "fine insight" into the class but you're making it painfully obvious that because you don't raid, you have zero insight into encounter dynamics again.

    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    To make a comparison, if I'm a first year law student and I fully understand the First Amendment and how it is applied in the United States, I have full knowledge of this topic.
    A Supreme Court justice would also fully understand the First Amendment and how it is applied in the United States, but just because they are a Supreme Court justice doesn't make them any more correct in their doctrine than I am, in fact, some would say that those in the Supreme Court have become drunk on power and have their own agendas in the way they interpret the constitution.
    Fact: Despite your first-year arrogance, the people in general will trust the interpretation of a Supreme Court justice over your interpretation.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by djtravitrav View Post
    Higher Shield of the Righteous uptime and increased dps is what haste is all about, divine purpose is the best talent of the three and scales the most with a haste build. These are simply facts, and I make the claims I make because I know they are correct. Yes, I said that.

    To address your point about specific content "Mastery also makes divine purpose more valuable." true, but not mathematically as much as haste. Mastery gives you a static bump to your shield of the righteous but lowers the amount of time your buff will actually be active throughout the fight. The way World of Warcraft combat swings are constructed, this is a far less valuable model. Bosses swing their melee attacks at you at a set frequency, it does not deviate. Bosses also hit you with their special melee attacks (such as triple puncture on horridon or snapping bite on tortos or thrash with sha of fear) on a set frequency (some deviate).

    The point being, with haste you are essentially always going to be guaranteed to have uptime during those specific spike damage events, as well as greater overall uptime to the Shield of the Righteous buff for regular melee swings. With mastery, you will have slightly higher mitigation when the buff is up, but it will be up significantly less frequently, and less likely to be active when you actually need it to be on those special attacks. Even with proper micromanaging you will start clipping holy power and wasting resources with a straight up mastery build because you have to ensure that you have 3 banked for that moment you need to activate the buff. With haste you can play much faster and looser with your holy power usage, because it is a guarantee that you will generate it at a far greater rate than with a mastery build.
    The same is true with both mastery and haste build. Both have to make sure to have 3 banked holy power for those special attacks. Not like haste build can magically use their SotR at 2 holy power.

    Also, the discussion here was which was the best, not which was the easiest/hardest. Mastery build can have SotR up for every time you need it and more.

    If you can not handle that, it is a skill issue, not a stat issue.

    Also, if mastery or haste helps DP is a matter of opinion, not math, since it works in different ways. You are comparing apples with oranges, increased uptime vs bigger damage reduction. You can't put a = between that, it is very fight dependant.
    Because a haste build is easier, does not automatically make it superior.
    Volun-told - A supposedly optional event, award, assignment, or activity in which a person (or persons) are required to attend either by persons-in-charge nominating them or their peers expecting them to be there. The individual often has no say in the matter, and non-attendance in frowned upon.

    I am so tired of seeing terrible people, being admired, for being terrible people.

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