How are ret paladins doing in PvE?

[Deleted]

How are ret paladins doing in PvE, is their damage good and are they viable for raiding normal / heroic?

[Vash The Stampede]

So far in my guild they had to bench a lot of melee for Tortos. He's essentially the anti melee fight for this raid. In my guild melee tend to carry ranged on dps meters. Couldn't do it on 25 man, so they did it on 10m with only 2 melee dps.

Ret isn't bad, but Frost DKs are absurd with Howling Blast. On any fight where you can cleave multiple targets, a DK is just amazing. I can switch my talents around all I want, but I don't come close to what a DK Howling Blast spam can do.

[Nairobi]

Ret's distinct lack of cleave really hurts them in heroic progression, where fights like Horridon and Tortos really highlight ranged and/or cleave classes.

Singletarget, Ret is ok or even good, but multi-target they are shit. We pretty much rotate our ret out for our DK when possible, even tho he outgears the DK.

Ret pal is to melee what RSham is to healers: Great when they can sit there and plant and focus on their target, but not good in practice with high mobility and spread-out targets.

[Filfa]

Simple answer?

"Average" since 2009

[Vx-Odessa-xV]

What Filfa said. Cause "Hybrid-Tax" is a cute term that Blizz likes to use that secretly means. "You get the D, sorry. TROLLFACEACTIVATE"

[Angelyka]

They are aware that ret has gay cleave but as guy above me said it is some kind of "Hybrid tax" payed to GregmfStreet.
I`l update when i get 2pc tier bonus.. it should help a bit

[Chaoslux]

They got rid of Hybrid tax ages ago. And the Hybrid Tax was an idea by the brilliant Tom Chilton aka Kalgan., nothing to do with Ghostcrawler, despite the fact both are bald.
If your dps is low nowadays, its because its low, not because of a secret hybrid tax..otherwise the top four spots would be Mages, Warlock, Hunters and Rogues uncontested (which isnt happening)

[Sianl]

Hybrid tax compared to what, the only pure dps melee? Rogues? Rets are lacking in general compared to all other melee, including the other hybrids. Also, as noted the hybrid tax is obsolete and isn't even considered anymore with class development/balance.

[Scinder]

Ret is my OS so I don't use it all that frequently. I think ret is still pretty terrible.

[Deleted]

They buffed Ret a lot since last patch.
I'd say we're high-midpack.

[schwank05]

I have yet to get to a single tank fight to test on normal, but in RF i am still always top 3 in DPS for all fights in many cases I top the meters. I know RF is not a good indicator, but it is all I have to go on for DPS these days as I am forced to tank for the guild.

[Hammerschlag]

Simple answer?

"Average" since 2009

This guy knows what's up!

[Lethora]

Below are the logs for our kills this week. You can see that rets are doing quite fine there. Some fights tend to favor ranged, but that's how it always been.
And don't look at me, I am prot! :P

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q.../?s=773&e=1432
Ret #1 (Horridon)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q...?s=3162&e=3692
Ret #7 (Council)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q...?s=7319&e=7747
Ret #3 (why are you saying melees are bad on Tortos?)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/q...?s=9141&e=9644
Ret #4 (Megaera)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s...?s=5212&e=5643
Rets #2 and #8 (Ji-Kun)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...?s=7976&e=8455
Rets #5 and #9 (Durumu)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c...?s=5120&e=5599
Rets #11 and #12 (Primordius)
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/c...=11096&e=11485
Rets #8 and #12 (Dark Animus)

[Deleted]

I would say that Ret is a middle of the pack melee / supporter who does very well in fights with short burst periods or fights with a shot damage increasing buff (Ji-Kun).
Unfortunately he is greatly outdamaged by many other classes when it comes to multi target and cleave fights since his AE only starts being competetive where other classes cleave end (4-5 targets).

The good news is that ret scales very well with gear since he gains alot out of all 3 stats and you encounter a certain breakpoint with haste this tier that allows you to always be able to press a button due to the lower cooldown providet by haste.

[Ater]

Well looking at how you are doing in your guild is not the right way to do it, you have to log at more logs. If you look at raid boots (that get their numbers from World of Logs this is what you get (using normal since there are almost no logs from heroic).

Don't take the numbers below as facts, they only give a hint of the state of each class.

10 man overal dps, top 100 from each class::
1. Rogue - 140.3K dps
2. Warlocks - 136.9K dps
3. Priests - 134.8K dps
4. Mages - 133.7K dps
5. Druid (caster) - 132.6K dps
6. DK - 128.3K dps
7. Hunter 126.1K dps
8. Warrior - 123.6K dps
9. Shaman (caster) - 121.6K dps
10. Paladin - 117.K dps
11. Monk - 112.5K dps

Source: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00000000000000

25 man overal dps, top 100 from each class:
1. Priest - 150.8K dps
2. Rogue - 150.8K dps
3. DK - 145.9K dps
4. Warlock - 145.2K dps
5. Warrior - 144K dps
6. Druid (caster) - 143.6K dps
7. Hunter - 139.2K dps
8. Mage - 138.3K dps
9. Monk - 132.2K dps
10. Paladin - 132K dps
11. Shaman (caster) - 130.5K dps

Source: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...00100000000000

Simultation craft simulation for each class dps with full tier 15 bis heroic gear (single target fight):
1. Mage - 230.3K dps
2. Monk - 216.3K dps
3. Warlock - 209.2K dps
4. Shaman (melee) - 207K dps
5. Druid (melee) - 206.2K dps
6. Rogue - 205K dps
7. Warrior - 202.6K dps
8. Priest - 198.2K dps
9. Hunter - 190K dps
10. DK - 186.9K dps
11. Paladin - 171.9K dps

Source: http://simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T15H.html

Don't take the numbers above as facts, they only give a hint of the state of each class.

[Hexme]

I would say that Ret is a middle of the pack melee / supporter who does very well in fights with short burst periods or fights with a shot damage increasing buff (Ji-Kun).
Unfortunately he is greatly outdamaged by many other classes when it comes to multi target and cleave fights since his AE only starts being competetive where other classes cleave end (4-5 targets).

The good news is that ret scales very well with gear since he gains alot out of all 3 stats and you encounter a certain breakpoint with haste this tier that allows you to always be able to press a button due to the lower cooldown providet by haste.

Ret would scale well if CS and other abilities didn't hit like a wet noodle, atm MKs and Wars are just stomping melee dmg atm and even Rogues are getting up there. Other classes are scaling faster and better than rets atm.

Ret is actually 16th out of the 26 specs in BiS gear on dmg while they are 19th out of the 26 specs on dmg in 522 gear (note this is dmg specs).

[Deleted]

So far in my guild they had to bench a lot of melee for Tortos. He's essentially the anti melee fight for this raid. In my guild melee tend to carry ranged on dps meters. Couldn't do it on 25 man, so they did it on 10m with only 2 melee dps.

bench on tortos, anti-melee fight? , http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g...e/?s=100&e=522

[Deleted]

Well looking at how you are doing in your guild is not the right way to do it, you have to log at more logs. If you look at raid boots (that get their numbers from World of Logs this is what you get (using normal since there are almost no logs from heroic).

Simultation craft simulation for each class dps with full tier 15 bis heroic gear (single target fight):
1. Mage - 230.3K dps
2. Monk - 216.3K dps
3. Warlock - 209.2K dps
4. Shaman (melee) - 207K dps
5. Druid (melee) - 206.2K dps
6. Rogue - 205K dps
7. Warrior - 202.6K dps
8. Priest - 198.2K dps
9. Hunter - 190K dps
10. DK - 186.9K dps
11. Paladin - 171.9K dps

Source: http://simulationcraft.org/520/Raid_T15H.html

Don't take the numbers above as facts, they only give a decent hint of the state of each class.

That is worrying data

[Deleted]

Really? Posting logs from a fight where you are the second highest damage player on the bats? Way to play the dps meter instead of the Boss.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Rets aren't horrible if we get to play to our strengths, sadly this tier only 2 fights really allows us to do that so many are benched or forced to "special" jobs like dispelling on Horridon, sacrifice dispelling and so on. Don't think there's any fight this tier that a ret should top meters if you play with equally geared and skilled people of other classes/specs. It's not hard to pump out dps, on Ji-kun normal I'm usually top 5 depending on kill time and how many feed young buffs I manage to take (usually 4/5 on average) so it's not horrible. But on a fight like Horridon heroic where my guild is having a tough time so far (3rd gate being a bitch) me and the other ret can't allow ourselves to AoE because we need to focus down the 3 big adds and the dinomancer. Since some our single target dps is shit (raid) horridon crashes the first gate (AND SECOND GATE) 10-20 seconds before the big adds die so we lose so much horridon uptime because people won't fucking listen. I've isolated time periods between our best attempts against Anaxies kill log and in the time period we're 50k +/- behind Anaxie on dps, but he's aoeing a lot and he's allowed to use CDs on horridon which we're not.

When it comes down to it a lot of the fights this tier and the performance you as a ret can do depends on your raid and how free you are to optimize your numbers. If you're allowed to aoe and spend time on that your numbers will be bigger, same if you're allowed to save your CDs for damage increase phases instead of using them on the big adds on HC Horridon (in this case). Great numbers for us depend more on your raid, I suspect that with a lot better gear for you and your raid you'll be able to push a lot higher numbers than we are atm during progress and early kills. Ret isn't exactly strongest scaling spec but we can push numbers that compares to other dps if we're left to do so, that said if other specs are allowed to play to their strengths they should wipe any ret with ease.

---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 10:30 AM ----------

bench on tortos, anti-melee fight? , http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g...e/?s=100&e=522

Normal?...