ToT 10 Man for the casual guild

[jayinjersey]

So my question is what level do you believe the casual guild needs to get "into" ToT?

On T14 we went 6/6 2/6 1e/4 (when we found someone to let us in to Terrace) but really hit walls at the healing dragon in Terrace and Garalon in HoF (needless to say, this is all Normal)...our item level average is lower 490's even after the 522 necklace. 3 of 5 DPS roughly 95k other two high 80s

We went into ToT first week and destroyed Jin. It gave us a high.

Horridon was like running into a wall.


One week later with Horridon nerfs and a week of LFR (though we collectively got 2 drops) we again destroyed Jin, and got to the second door of Horridon.


So where is the "baseline" starting point?

We only raid about once or twice a week, and I'm trying to figure out if we should go back to HoF and Terrace or just keep banging our head against Horridon.


Thoughts?

[edlike]

once all of LFR is open it will be way easier to close that 490-500 ilvl gap. having an average ilvl over 500 is going to make life a lot easier for you guys i think

[fangless]

ilvl 500 seems to be the point where things become less of a wall.

[Syenite]

ToeS may provide you the Sha touched weapon giving you the needed strength to kill Horridon. Furthermore, try going over your roster an have everyone fix their specs for the given encounter, i.e. warlocks going affliction.

[Xalden]

I would honestly say go back to HoF and ToeS just to gear up a bit more and get more players "raid ready". Your dps seems really low even for a casual guild so i would say either get better dps or gear up the dps you have before trying to join current tier. Even with my guild that is more "casual" all of the dps will sit around 110k dps or better depending on the fight. Also i would'nt really say "Make people" do something, But the use of gems and enchants on all your gear is actually a very big upgrade and is something that should ALWAYS be on a raider. If they are not gemmed/enchanted/"raid ready" You need to find some one that will take it a bit more seriously and actually get the bosses down.
As many have stated "You are only as strong as your weakest link" And that saying is EXTREAMLY true with these new tiers. So instead of looking at what to make better, Maybe start looking at who you need to start replacing.

[Simplexity]

Horridon and anything further is going to be tough for your group until you guys get close to about a ~500 average ilvl, so you'll probably have to wait a few weeks for more LFR wings and valor upgrades. It's doable in ~490 but your group needs to be pretty decent. I would work on clearing normal HoF and Terrace and keep farming Jin weekly. The DPS requirement for Horridon/Council/Tortos is about what you would need to down Sha of Fear, so if you can't down Sha you won't really have much of a chance in ToT.

[Dyra]

So my question is what level do you believe the casual guild needs to get "into" ToT?

On T14 we went 6/6 2/6 1e/4 (when we found someone to let us in to Terrace) but really hit walls at the healing dragon in Terrace and Garalon in HoF (needless to say, this is all Normal)...our item level average is lower 490's even after the 522 necklace. 3 of 5 DPS roughly 95k other two high 80s

We went into ToT first week and destroyed Jin. It gave us a high.

Horridon was like running into a wall.


One week later with Horridon nerfs and a week of LFR (though we collectively got 2 drops) we again destroyed Jin, and got to the second door of Horridon.


So where is the "baseline" starting point?

We only raid about once or twice a week, and I'm trying to figure out if we should go back to HoF and Terrace or just keep banging our head against Horridon.


Thoughts?

You sound exactly like the situation my guild is in, except on average we might be a few ilvl points higher.

Definitely go back and do HoF and ToES. With the 10% reduction it's much easier, and with the upgrades you'll get (especially when it comes to weapons) really helps. We managed to (scrappily) kill Horridon on our last kill thanks to going back and going through ToES for upgrades. We're going to keep doing this until we need to spend all our raiding hours (we raid 1-2 times a week too) within ToT, or we run out of upgrades to get.

Also the elder coins you get are much more likely to get you gear from the 5.0 raids now as well. Virtually everyone got a weapon upgrade this week. Plus as another has said, as LFR gradually opens, you'll get more gear from that too.

[ZakAtack]

Go back and finish HoF and ToES while also running LFR wings as they open. At this point in time, fights like Horridon generally can't be brute forced unless you have a lot of 500+ gear. Unless you can flawlessly execute stuns, interrupts, dispels and such for 10+ minutes, you're going to want that T14 gear and LFR gear as well.

[asharia]

horridon is going to SUCK for a guild that couldn't clear normal modes last tier.

jinrohk is super easy, and you should be jumping in there to kill him at least. any gear from him is a bonus. plus the rep, you should be looking at getting your 3rd piece of 522 rep/valor gear this week or next.

[Deleted]

I don't see casual guild beating more then 3 bosses in ToT tbh, and thats the strech already since Council is very demanding.
Tortos have simple mechanics, but it's a pain in the ass too. If you somehow beat it there's Mageara, and thats the real roadblock. My guild isn't super hardcore but we were 7/16 hc last tier, and so far 2 groups wipe on this boss for 2 days.
It will go down eventually (hope for tommorow), since we wipe at last head, but for casual guild that didnt clear normal T14 it's virtually impossible without some big nerf.

[Deleted]

Don't give up hope, we were more progressed than you last tier, but our raider vary from low 490's to mid and slightly over 495, our best geared raider just hit 500 tonight with a drop, but we have managed our way through the first 3 bosses, with some wipes, some perserverance and some sheer bloody mindedeness (only had one pull on Tortos, so can t comment on him), so we have slightly better gear, but what mattered more for us was finding strats that worked for our team, like assigning interupters on that second horridon door

It may be worth clearing HOF/Terrace to fill in some gear gaps, but i feel it was more important for us to find a strat that works for our group, then it becomes a lot easier

[Cerunnir]

...I don't see casual guild beating more then 3 bosses in ToT tbh, and thats the strech already since Council is very demanding...

That depends on your definition of casual. If its casual = bad then yes, they would struggle and probably find a impassable roadblock especially at Meagara. If its casual = little time (2 raids a week or less), then its just a matter of a few extra weeks to clear. My guild (2 raids a week, 5/16 HC last Tier) is currently progressing on Meagara, and we manage to get to the 5-6 head, but that was with a trial in the group that did not pull his weight at all. With a full group of geared people we should down Maegara.

[oraz4000]

Dont lose hope OP we are mostly a normal guild with a few heroic kills just before a new tier opens up and without a doubt Aside from the first boss Throne of Thunder is by far the hardest normal raid we have faced especially with blocks of Horridon and Council straight up its pretty brutal.

[Delath]

I don't see casual guild beating more then 3 bosses in ToT tbh, and thats the strech already since Council is very demanding.
Tortos have simple mechanics, but it's a pain in the ass too. If you somehow beat it there's Mageara, and thats the real roadblock. My guild isn't super hardcore but we were 7/16 hc last tier, and so far 2 groups wipe on this boss for 2 days.
It will go down eventually (hope for tommorow), since we wipe at last head, but for casual guild that didnt clear normal T14 it's virtually impossible without some big nerf.

We were 7/16hc in T14 (ilvl 500ish at the moment) as well and just managed to get Tortos and Megaera down last night (Megaera dropped easier than expected with good raid cooldown management). Tortos did not seem like such a huge gearcheck once we found a player that could reliably do the kicks lol. Council was much more of a mess for us to be honest.

TL: DR my opinion is that a guild that struggles on Garalon and Tsulong definitely needs more gear/experience before getting any further than first boss in ToT. When you ilvl starts going steadily over 500 with new lfr stuff and valor rewards, you can get away with more mistakes in the fights.

[Deleted]

well if you raid 2 times per week. focus 1 day for tot. killing 1st boss and focus 2nd. and 2nd day for clearing terace and hof. set bonus might help some players, trinkets also

[Deleted]

We went in with 490-500 ilvl as a raid last week for a night, healers a lil lower. Was 'okayish' up to druuuuuuuummmmmmu, which just raped us a bit (was the end of the night and we were prob playing quite bad). You'll need to 3 heal megaera, we couldn't do it with 2 in that gear, and council may pose a bit of an issue though we just 2 shot it or something...seemed easy? Take time to farm hof/tes for gear too.

Went in this week with the raid all closer to 500-510 ilvl (a few a lil lower but np there) and found it far far easier, we're on lei shen atm which is kinda raping us, but it may be a bugged static shock.

ps. this is while carrying a warrior who does same dps as tanks till he dies on the first mechanic :P

[Magpai]

Once you're capable of doing Heart of Fear and Terrace with no complications, it's time to work on Horridon. Until then, don't even bother.

I'm not necessarily suggesting you "progress" through Heart of Fear if you haven't done it, you just need to be gear-capable of doing it. Clearing Terrace fully is a good test of this. If you're not gear-capable for Horridon/can't clear Terrace fairly easily, then that place should still have relevant upgrades.

If it doesn't and you still can't clear it then you have bigger problems than gear. But my main point: Don't "bang your head" against Horridon. It's a long ass fight with long ass trash and dps matters a lot. You're wasting what precious little raid time you have trying to squeeze blood from a turnip, dps-wise. Just go back and get some upgrades if it's clear you don't have the dps for it. I would give you an actual number to shoot for item level wise but it varies so much from group to group that it really wouldn't even be meaningful if I did.

[Deleted]

That depends on your definition of casual. If its casual = bad then yes, they would struggle and probably find a impassable roadblock especially at Meagara. If its casual = little time (2 raids a week or less), then its just a matter of a few extra weeks to clear. My guild (2 raids a week, 5/16 HC last Tier) is currently progressing on Meagara, and we manage to get to the 5-6 head, but that was with a trial in the group that did not pull his weight at all. With a full group of geared people we should down Maegara.

I meant guild like OP describeed - who didn't even clear normal T14, and got stuck on easy bosses like Garalon and Tsulong.
Your progress and some guy below in this thread is very simmilar to ours, and we all struggle on Mageara atm, and honestly this fight seems harder or at least same difficulity then heroics we beat in T14, guild who didnt kill single boss in hc last tier, can say goodbye to this boss, or wait till they gear up a lot.

[Ater]

My guild have two raid groups, one casual that are currently progressing through ToT (6/12) one extremely casual that only manage something like 6/6, 3/6, 0/0 before t15 hit.

What out extremely casual group have been doing the last two resets is killing Jin'rokh the Breaker then move back and clear tier14. With the nerfs to the tier, the loot from Jin'rokh the Breaker and the new valorgear they have manage to get 6/6, 6/6 3/4 with Sha most likely going down next reset. With the increased droprate in the tier14 raids and since the thing needed for the bonus rolls is so common now they will probably have enough gear to start progressing Horridon in about 2 resets time from now.

[Jekerdud]

Whether you are "casual" or not, one thing that seems to be overlooked is the use of cooldowns at proper times. If casual to you means only normals cleared, and everyone has a busy schedule outside of the game, that doesn't mean that you have to play sloppy.

For example, the OP mentioned trouble on Tsulong. What are the healers? Pretty much every healing class has some spell that increases the healing done by another spell of theirs. Were they using it during the breath? As a monk, Life Cocoon & Enveloping Mist just as the breath hit meant HoT's were hitting hard, and Revival during the breath with always hit for 1.3 mill or more. As terrorize was coming out, was someone spamming dispel on the boss, so it never got a tick off?

For this tier, there's a lot of talk about Meagara. The best things for that fight you can do, is have the tanks stand as far to the left/right as they can go, so people have the most possible room to move away for cinders. Have ranged stand at max range, and spread out. This way, if a cinders falls on range, they can take cinders out a few steps, and it isn't in normal casting range. If they are spread out, then that person is the only one that gets hit with it when it's dispelled. Nobody else has to move. For acid bomb, get away, but keep in mind that some cooldowns can negate/mitigate it a bunch. Again, as a (mistweaver) monk, if an acid bomb is getting dropped on the melee group, I will step just outside the initial circle of where it lands, cast diffuse magic, and keep healing the tank closest to the "blast." I barely take any damage from acid bomb that way. As a windwalker, touch of karma would do the same thing, allowing you to keep burning the head you are on. By the way windwalkers, touch of karma is extremely helpful on Durumu, during beams AND during disintegration beam. It will always be up for both.

If you are in a "casual" guild, just because your guild defines itself that way doesn't mean that everyone has to be 100% lazy about reading up. If you or someone else on your raid team has a spot of extra time, use it for some reading and strategizing. Even with being undergeared, for the most part, all it takes is using the correct ability at the correct time. You could even skip one night of raiding and just ask that people take the time to check forums on their class, and do some video watching/reading guides & the dungeon journal on bosses. Even one night sacrificed could make a difference. That one night skipped could mean the next week produces a lot more kills, with the same amount of time spent raiding, and a better overall morale within the raid team. That increased morale *could* then turn into a drive to push harder, causing the player to do more to help the group, instead of just being another body in the group.

If gear really is an issue, and you know there are some "rich" people in the guild, see about getting some of the crafted gear, whether it comes from ToT or Tier 14. A day or two putting the mats together for a crafted piece will help more than waiting a week or two for valor or a drop. If the guild is casual (by the definition above, limited time), but does want to see kills, I'm sure some people wouldn't be against pitching in some gold to help things along.