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  1. #1

    switch to combat

    i just got lucky with some drops today on tot i get the fist weapon from twins and 2set +some other upgrades.
    so with the 522 fist weapon is better to directly switch to combat before 4pct15?
    my dagger for mut was a upgraded hc stoneguard dagger 510 (shitty luck with lei shit).

    armory link:http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...r%C3%A0/simple

  2. #2
    Shadowcraft has you approximately 3k higher with assassination, even with a 510 MH instead of a 522.

    shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com, loaded your char, checked DPS, swapped to assassination, equipped the 502, upgraded to 510, optimized gems, optimized reforging: 129,285.9 DPS, loaded combat at 126k, capped combat at 126,912.5

    Either way, update your reforge and gemming options, but if you're going for max DPS and it's not cleave, stick with assassination.

  3. #3
    Field Marshal Mersynd's Avatar
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    Combat will get better at the end of the tier when you are geared, and the gear in ToT is a little better for Combat as well. There's really no major difference in damage between the two, it's just up to you what you want to play or if better weapons drop then just go with that. It's simple.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Mersynd View Post
    Combat will get better at the end of the tier when you are geared.


    People have been saying this since the start of tier 14. Scaling etc. It is not true. Assass scaling is very close to Combat.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    People have been saying this since the start of tier 14. Scaling etc. It is not true. Assass scaling is very close to Combat.
    It isn't just scaling, it is 4pc t15. And they were saying it in t14 because it was true. At full bis t14 combat was pretty close where as with entry level blues there was a ridiculous difference. So yeah, in t14, combat scaled better. Whether or not it still scales better, I'm not sure, but the 4pc is definitely far better for combat.

  6. #6
    The Patient Lunareste's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    People have been saying this since the start of tier 14. Scaling etc. It is not true. Assass scaling is very close to Combat.
    Except that Combat is far more dependent on weapon damage than Assassination and will scale higher as a result, even with the buffs to Dispatch.

    Combat actually WILL end up being significantly better than Assassination by the end of this tier, provided you have a good amount of heroic gear. Without that it's much closer, but Combat is still going to be ahead because of its crazy scaling and the top end weapons available this tier.

    I'm a washed up, has-been.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Lunareste View Post
    Except that Combat is far more dependent on weapon damage than Assassination and will scale higher as a result, even with the buffs to Dispatch.

    Combat actually WILL end up being significantly better than Assassination by the end of this tier, provided you have a good amount of heroic gear. Without that it's much closer, but Combat is still going to be ahead because of its crazy scaling and the top end weapons available this tier.
    Ill believe it when it see it. In fact, I have not seen a single Combat rogue in any of the top end guilds I follow. They are all Assassination. And they all have 4 piece tier 15, and about 520 ilvl already (even Killars who is a fairly implacable Combat Rogue).

    I also hope you are wrong because if Combat is highest I will play it but I absolutely hate the spec: spammy mindless crap especially at high haste levels. The idea of being forced into it against like in DS makes me want to reroll.

  8. #8
    No one is forcing you to play any spec but yourself. I feel the same feelings towards assassination as you have towards combat. What is annoying is that blizz did nerf blade flurry so no one was forced to play combat anymore on cleave fights yet the difference is now so huge that everyone feels forced to play assassination.

  9. #9
    That and it does more damage.

    And you are right that noone is "forced" to play anything. However, if you are not playing the highest damage spec, and/or the other rogues are consistently beating you in damage, your raid leader will not be happy. Given that no spec has any unique utility any more, I will play whatever is highest damage, and I just hope that is never Combat.

  10. #10
    I've played all specs and even though it can cause rsi due to button smash play style, i still prefer combat. will always play combat pvp is the exception.

    someone who can play combat to the tee will beat someone who just started assassination and vice versa.
    what i mean is, play what you enjoy, regardless of that extra bit of dps.
    some people need to remember that wow is a paid game, try playing it for fun =]

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    Ill believe it when it see it. In fact, I have not seen a single Combat rogue in any of the top end guilds I follow. They are all Assassination. And they all have 4 piece tier 15, and about 520 ilvl already (even Killars who is a fairly implacable Combat Rogue).
    Combat should be ahead at the END of the tier, for a patchwerk or direct cleave fight. 520 and 535+ are quite far apart, to be fair =) Either way, almost any fight circumstances favor assassination over combat (especially time off target). We'll see whether or not it is when people are done with progression and halfway done farming this tier.

    Personally, I hate playing combat and unless the gap is huge, my rogue remains casual enough for me to stick with "anything else". I'd sooner shiv myself than play a .5s GCD.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-19 at 02:04 PM.

  12. #12
    Due to the nature of Assassin's Resolve single target fights with external %damage done by player/% damage taken by boss are more favorable for assassination.

    Damage buffs and debuffs are multiplicative.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jtstormrage View Post
    Ill believe it when it see it. In fact, I have not seen a single Combat rogue in any of the top end guilds I follow. They are all Assassination. And they all have 4 piece tier 15, and about 520 ilvl already (even Killars who is a fairly implacable Combat Rogue).

    I also hope you are wrong because if Combat is highest I will play it but I absolutely hate the spec: spammy mindless crap especially at high haste levels. The idea of being forced into it against like in DS makes me want to reroll.
    I doubt the difference will be so bad you'll be "forced" to go Combat. At least this tier.

    And 2/4 of our Rogues were Assass in DS! (Well okay not on a few key progression nights but still.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Due to the nature of Assassin's Resolve single target fights with external %damage done by player/% damage taken by boss are more favorable for assassination.

    Damage buffs and debuffs are multiplicative.
    This is misleading. If you take 100%, multiply by 1.3, you're at 130% of original. That then is doubled, and you're at 260% of the original value. When 130% of spec X is equal to 100% of spec Y, 260% of spec X is equal to 200% of spec Y. Assassination and combat benefit equally from percentile damage bonuses for this reason. If it were additive, assassination would be behind because when 130%X is even with 100%Y, 230%X is behind 200%Y. As long as spec X at 130% (assassination) is equal to spec Y at 100% (combat), they will be even for all multiplicative buffs. No matter how you start at 120k, doubling it is always 240k. This does not mean they are currently equal, but that has nothing to do with the "nature" of assassin's resolve.

    For the people who are seriously min-maxing, we'll still have to wait to see how combat and assassination play out in BiS, but assassination will still maintain (most) of the mechanical advantages (less lost from time off target, AoE).

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    This is misleading. If you take 100%, multiply by 1.3, you're at 130% of original. That then is doubled, and you're at 260% of the original value. When 130% of spec X is equal to 100% of spec Y, 260% of spec X is equal to 200% of spec Y. Assassination and combat benefit equally from percentile damage bonuses for this reason. If it were additive, assassination would be behind because when 130%X is even with 100%Y, 230%X is behind 200%Y. As long as spec X at 130% (assassination) is equal to spec Y at 100% (combat), they will be even for all multiplicative buffs. No matter how you start at 120k, doubling it is always 240k. This does not mean they are currently equal, but that has nothing to do with the "nature" of assassin's resolve.
    I like the idea of "equality" of 125% of assassination and 100% of combat.
    Also combat being destroyed in ranks by assassination on such fights as Jin'rokh HC (40% puddles) and Horridon HC (200% debuff) for no apparent reason.
    Burn phase on both fights is pretty much static, combat has CD advantage on jin'rokh with AR + SB ready for every puddle (unlike vendetta for every other puddle).
    Neither additional 30% AP, nor slightly controllable insight (0-30%) stacks not making it up.

  16. #16
    Is there a single target situation without damage buffs where combat is pulling ahead or equal? No.

    In the current situation, assassination is just doing more single target damage than combat is, for progression gear settings. That's not specific to Jin'rokh/Horridon/Ji'kun; see Council, Durumu, Iron Qon, Twin Consorts: the damage buff is inconsequential to the damage gap between specs. Assassination is ahead by a wide margin in every single target scenario. I haven't denied that at any point; see my first post in this thread. That still does not change for fights with a damage bonus; assuming patchwerk settings (which Horridon isn't - this actually favors assassination even further for having the +damage exist with a disproportionately large <35% phase), the percentile gap between assassination and combat will remain constant regardless of that fight's percentile damage modifiers. That's what I was arguing, not that combat IS pulling 100% of assassination's damage, at this time.

    Edit: I might go so far as to say that, during normal progression this tier, assassination might be a teensy weensy bit OP, not just with respect to combat, but as single target is concerned, compared to every other spec in the game.
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-20 at 07:59 AM.

  17. #17
    Top guilds are hiding logs during progression, you can't see the full picture atm (and let's not talk about normals).
    For example i don't think that this guy doesn't pull enough single target DPS.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Top guilds are hiding logs during progression, you can't see the full picture atm (and let's not talk about normals).
    For example i don't think that this guy doesn't pull enough single target DPS.
    Talk about loot luck... o.o killed every boss twice and almost every slot equipped, wtf?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluegirl91 View Post
    Talk about loot luck... o.o killed every boss twice and almost every slot equipped, wtf?
    We actually had this discussion in another thread; most world-competitive guilds only run 5-8 mains per 25-man the first week, with little to 0 loot competition for the 6 drops per boss. This means that every main has free pickings of (almost) every piece of normal loot in the first week, so as to carry the gear advantage through heroics.

    ---------- Post added 2013-03-20 at 02:18 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Top guilds are hiding logs during progression, you can't see the full picture atm (and let's not talk about normals).
    For example i don't think that this guy doesn't pull enough single target DPS.
    I'm seeing him as Assassination atm? Edit: ah, he just got the 522 weapon and swapped to assassination. If I had to guess, he was combat either for a specific fight, or because he had a much better weapon setup for combat at the time. I don't know that combat is LOW, but it's LOW-ER than assassination. Edit 2: no, given that he's gemmed for assassination and the armory doesn't have his dagger updated as enchanted, I'm fairly sure he was running assassination before this as well. What am I missing?
    Last edited by Kael; 2013-03-20 at 06:21 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    I like the idea of "equality" of 125% of assassination and 100% of combat.
    Also combat being destroyed in ranks by assassination on such fights as Jin'rokh HC (40% puddles) and Horridon HC (200% debuff) for no apparent reason.
    Burn phase on both fights is pretty much static, combat has CD advantage on jin'rokh with AR + SB ready for every puddle (unlike vendetta for every other puddle).
    Neither additional 30% AP, nor slightly controllable insight (0-30%) stacks not making it up.
    A big chunk of uptime on horridon is during execute phase, which plays very well to assassination's strengths. That said, assassination was buffed more than combat was this patch and was ALREADY ahead of combat, so the gap is wider. This leads to better players playing assassination for progression, leading to sampling bias. If you want to see just how skewed the sampling is, just look at this link: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Jin&#39;rokh_...00000000000000. This is the first boss on normal, the one with the most kills, for every combat rogue parse, there are 4.2 assassination rogue parses.

    To drive the point further home, if you look at the lei shen parses: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Lei_Shen/...00000000000000 the gap widens because for lei shen you're skewing the sample size even further into "high end" player territory. There are 8.25 assassination parses for every combat parse here.

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